Cue identification

V

Vince_Former_BB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, pictured below is a cue I need to identify. I believe it's an early 70s Joss, perhaps before Danny Janes and Bil Stroudl split. There is no name/logo nor identifiers whatsoever but that really doesn't mean anything. I know early Joss had no logos and the ones immediately following the parting of ways of both guys only had an engraved "Joss" that was a few thousandths of an inch in depth. The cue is odd in that it has an ivory joint and 3/8-10 pin and the butt is 28-1/2 inches long which would indicate it was originally a 57 inch cue, pretty much the standard in the early 70s. The points are knifed in....not those rounded tipped points which are easily identifiable as pantographed/inlaid. The shafts on the other hand are both ivory ferruled, one is 29-1/2 inches long while the other is 30 inches. Now, I do believe that back then since 57 was pretty much a standard cuemakers were buying wood in lengths shorter than today so in order to produce a lengthier cue they'd add a slightly longer shaft. The inlay in the white butt of this thing is some kind of plastic; I don't believe it's ivory because it just has such a plasticy, translucent appearance to it.... I also know for a fact I've seen this model of cue before so I believe it's a "production" model or at least "production" as was known back then. The "barbells" in the heel and easy to produce inlay in the forearm smack of 1970s production. I've seen them in a billion (maybe a tad bit of hyperbole added in there) cues from that era.

Lastly, if you know what it is please inform me HOW you know. Feel free to guess but ultimately I'd like to find some supporting documentation in the form of a brochure or catalog vs. conventional wisdom.

Next.....what's it worth? Throw some numbers out there so I'll have a better idea of what I'm dealing with and for the record....NO. It's NOT my cue and I'm not interested in selling it, at least for the time being since I don't own it. I'm literally trying to help out a friend.
V.
 

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Beautiful cue
Could of been in the Bill Stroud era (before 1972), but the value is high whether he was there or not.
My guess is Bill Stroud had something to do with this cue.

If it's for sale, I'm interested

Peace
Ted
 
cuesblues said:
Beautiful cue
Could of been in the Bill Stroud era (before 1972), but the value is high whether he was there or not.
My guess is Bill Stroud had something to do with this cue.

If it's for sale, I'm interested

Peace
Ted
Click to expand...

Tom Kollins had an early Joss West that looked like that...
...hell, that might be the cue.
 
Cue with the ivory joint is an early Josswest, same collars as your cue
Maybe even the same pin
The cue next to it is a 1969 Joss



033.jpg
 
Well, I think it's obvious it is likely either an early Josswest or an early Joss.

Hard to say.

Either way, Stroud was involved.

If he chimes in, he will probably be the best resource for info on this cue IMHO.


.
 
Vince_Former_BB said:
So, pictured below is a cue I need to identify. I believe it's an early 70s Joss, perhaps before Danny Janes and Bil Stroudl split. There is no name/logo nor identifiers whatsoever but that really doesn't mean anything. I know early Joss had no logos and the ones immediately following the parting of ways of both guys only had an engraved "Joss" that was a few thousandths of an inch in depth. The cue is odd in that it has an ivory joint and 3/8-10 pin and the butt is 28-1/2 inches long which would indicate it was originally a 57 inch cue, pretty much the standard in the early 70s. The points are knifed in....not those rounded tipped points which are easily identifiable as pantographed/inlaid. The shafts on the other hand are both ivory ferruled, one is 29-1/2 inches long while the other is 30 inches. Now, I do believe that back then since 57 was pretty much a standard cuemakers were buying wood in lengths shorter than today so in order to produce a lengthier cue they'd add a slightly longer shaft. The inlay in the white butt of this thing is some kind of plastic; I don't believe it's ivory because it just has such a plasticy, translucent appearance to it.... I also know for a fact I've seen this model of cue before so I believe it's a "production" model or at least "production" as was known back then. The "barbells" in the heel and easy to produce inlay in the forearm smack of 1970s production. I've seen them in a billion (maybe a tad bit of hyperbole added in there) cues from that era.

Lastly, if you know what it is please inform me HOW you know. Feel free to guess but ultimately I'd like to find some supporting documentation in the form of a brochure or catalog vs. conventional wisdom.

Next.....what's it worth? Throw some numbers out there so I'll have a better idea of what I'm dealing with and for the record....NO. It's NOT my cue and I'm not interested in selling it, at least for the time being since I don't own it. I'm literally trying to help out a friend.
V.
Click to expand...

Agree that Stroud and Janes would be best able to date the cue, but a little history may be helpful.

This type of window style cue was made by Joss through about the mid 70s, not only in the early years. Given the original length of 57 inches, I would say 1975 or earlier. There is no catalog, pamphlet or whatever, with this type of Joss cue. Pamphlets didn't come around until the so-called diamond series of about 1981. Although a fair number of these cues were made by Joss, it didn't have a name or number. They were all custom in those days. How do I know? My first Joss buy was 1975, and I was up there often enough, as well as in the DC area to now. I know the early to mid history of Joss pretty well.

On the lack of a name, it looks to me that the cue may have been refinished, hard to tell. The reason I say that though, is the wrap looks a bit dark-speck to be original. It would make sense that the engraved logo may have been lost, just a theory.

The material you're talking about in the butt sleeve and butt plate is implex, it was the go-to material for this type of cue by Joss though at least the mid 70s. Had the general look of ivory without the cost. A bit testy to glue, according to Tim Scruggs, who worked with this material quite a bit, both with Joss and on his own.

What's it worth? I would hate to guess, because there's so much doubt these days. But these were pretty fancy player cues that you don't see too many of these days, as most got worn out or destroyed. This appears to be in very nice condition, so personally I would put the figure at 3K. I probably offended people with both higher and lower thoughts.

Lastly, I sort of recognize your name, as I assume you were the Vince who worked at Black Boar. If so, we played at least of couple of the same tournaments in the DC area in the early to mid 90s. That also puts your location about right for my memory of this cue, which I usually have. I do seem to remember the cue.

All the best,
WW
 
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This isn't quite accurate for Bill Stroud. My first visit to his shop in Aspen was in 1973, and he already had a full color pamphlet with about a dozen cues in it. The most expensive cue was a cue with a ton of ivory that sold for less than $800 then. The cheapest was a 4-pt cue with veneers and an ebony butt sleeve for $165. I wanted Bill to make me a box cue that I had designed,and he told me it would cost $1000. I was a poor college kid then, and couldn't pay up. I finally had the cue made for my 30th BD in 1983...it cost me $1500 by then! I still have the JW pamphlet. My first Joss, purchased in 1975 from Bill, was a dead ringer for the third cue from the right in cuesblues picture.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

WildWing said:
Agree that Stroud and Janes would be best able to date the cue, but a little history may be helpful.

This type of window style cue was made by Joss through about the mid 70s, not only in the early years. Given the original length of 57 inches, I would say 1975 or earlier. There is no catalog, pamphlet or whatever, with this type of Joss cue. Pamphlets didn't come around until the so-called diamond series of about 1981. Although a fair number of these cues were made by Joss, it didn't have a name or number. They were all custom in those days. How do I know? My first Joss buy was 1975, and I was up there often enough, as well as in the DC area to now. I know the early to mid history of Joss pretty well. Travis Duncan may want to chime in on this one as well.


WW
Click to expand...
 
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Doesn't look like the wrap is original for the time that cue would have been made. I've seen cues similar to this over the years.
 
Scott Lee said:
This isn't quite accurate for Bill Stroud. My first visit to his shop in Aspen was in 1973, and he already had a full color pamphlet with about a dozen cues in it. The most expensive cue was a cue with a ton of ivory that sold for less than $800 then. The cheapest was a 4-pt cue with veneers and an ebony butt sleeve for $165. I wanted Bill to make me a box cue that I had designed,and he told me it would cost $1000. I was a poor college kid then, and couldn't pay up. I finally had the cue made for my 30th BD in 1983...it cost me $1500 by then! I still have the JW pamphlet. My first Joss, purchased in 1975 from Bill, was a dead ringer for the third cue from the right in cuesblues picture.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

As you can see by the rest of my post, I think it's a Joss (east). I think it was after Stroud's move.

All the best,
WW
 
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the early cues had no name markings on them.
that looks exactly like a jw and the maple he used in some of his forearms. i have one forearm just like it. 3 k is about right if the shafts are original. but it looks like it was refinished by the shafts.
 
I neverlook at posters name...good catch,WW. You must be some kinda detective. Maybe you can help me with this: which lettr is between h and j? Hahhaba. I kid.

Vince! I knew ya too... what does a man do, after tony?
 
Black-Balled said:
I neverlook at posters name...good catch,WW. You must be some kinda detective. Maybe you can help me with this: which lettr is between h and j? Hahhaba. I kid.

Vince! I knew ya too... what does a man do, after tony?
Click to expand...

It's what I do, BB, it's what I do...

Sometimes it's a pain in the rear to have a super autobiographical memory. Then again, it comes in handy.

Last time I saw Vince was in 1994, 23 years ago, First Break in Herndon. McDermott tour, which was the successor of the Mid Atlantic Regional Circuit, started by Jim McAdam (Jimmy Mac), later to become Planet Pool. All the mid Atlantic goods were there, from Giles Dar, Neptune Joe Frady, Jimmy Mac, Tom Vanover, Shorty, and guess what... A not so well known named George Breedlove. The temperature was about four degrees, and the water pipes burst in First Break. They quickly moved the tournament, and George won.

One of the few times I got to the second day of the tournament. Got beat finally by Chuck Fake from North Carolina. If I'd won, my next opponent was Dave Bollman from Norfolk, so my chances were limited.

It was like yesterday. As is this cue in question...

All the best,
WW
 
hang-the-9 said:
So something funny here.

Tim Scruggs http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5476359&postcount=41

TS worked / learned from the Joss folk did he not?
]
Click to expand...

Good catch, this is my cue, the homage to what Joss did in the early years with those window designs. All the good players had them in the early 70s, such as Baltimore player Mike Sidel, also Tom Vanover, and a host of others.

So, I had Tim Scruggs, and Mike Cochran do this cue in 1999, but with Ivorine 3, and more even spacing in rings and sleeves.

Notice the double veneer on the buttsleeve barbells? I'm only aware of two cues like this. It will be interesting to see the provenance on this cue, very nice one.

All the best,
WW
 
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Yyyyyyyyyyyep. It's me. I'll gladly discuss this cue in private if anyone is interested. I'll happily send you my phone number if you'd like to chat about it.

I completely remember that tournament with the flood. What a nightmare.
 
First break is not in Herndon, you senile olde fart.

Hahahaha.

I feel like I was at that tournament, but then again, I don't recall ever being in a room with all those folks at once.

And I just mentioned Giles darr in another thread. Twice in one day, whacky world.


WildWing said:
It's what I do, BB, it's what I do...

Sometimes it's a pain in the rear to have a super autobiographical memory. Then again, it comes in handy.

Last time I saw Vince was in 1994, 23 years ago, First Break in Herndon. McDermott tour, which was the successor of the Mid Atlantic Regional Circuit, started by Jim McAdam (Jimmy Mac), later to become Planet Pool. All the mid Atlantic goods were there, from Giles Dar, Neptune Joe Frady, Jimmy Mac, Tom Vanover, Shorty, and guess what... A not so well known named George Breedlove. The temperature was about four degrees, and the water pipes burst in First Break. They quickly moved the tournament, and George won.

One of the few times I got to the second day of the tournament. Got beat finally by Chuck Fake from North Carolina. If I'd won, my next opponent was Dave Bollman from Norfolk, so my chances were limited.

It was like yesterday. As is this cue in question...

All the best,
WW
Click to expand...
 
Black-Balled said:
First break is not in Herndon, you senile olde fart.

Hahahaha.

I feel like I was at that tournament, but then again, I don't recall ever being in a room with all those folks at once.

And I just mentioned Giles darr in another thread. Twice in one day, whacky world.
Click to expand...

Well, ok, Sterling then. I still remember the cue Giles shot with...

All the best,
WW
 
WOW...just WOW.....went from a cue discussion to First Break tourney....I am glad I stopped in.

I was running that event on the McDermott tour back then.....colder that a blankenty blank.

Pipe burst in the ceiling right above the chart....the normal pens we used to use would have washed all the names off the thing....but for some reason I used some new felt tip things....and the ink stayed on the chart.

The place was flooded despite our efforts to dam up the tide with towels, beer cases, and anything we could grab. I called another room down the road and rented the tables I needed for 50 an hour and got the event finished.

Speaking of cold....they sent city buses all over town to pick up the homeless...because it was a sure death being outside.
 
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