Cue makers to stay away from
- Thread starter The Rooster
- Start date
The fact is the OPs friend obviouly knows that the cue is being made on the side in a top 5 in the world cue makers shop and his little 2100 cue would take a back seat to Tony's cues some of which go for 10s of thousands of dollars so I can surly see how Bernie had reasons why he could not get the cue done on a said time line which possibly couldn't be guaranteed ,,
The Op asks the question like its a regular cue maker , he only later brings up the fact that he's a cue maker using anothe cue makers shop on the side so it's a rediculas question to begin with
Personaly I think the OPs friend was crazy not to wait ,, good things come to those who wait and to have a cue come out of black boars shop for 2100 could very well be a huge bargin ,
Personaly I would have waited that and longer knowing the cue could very well be made under the watchful eye of one of the greatest cue makers the world has ever seen
Infact I would love to hear more about the cue and the design cause I'd be interested in having it finished myself ,,
1
Case closed?... Far from it Chris
Sure the plantiff wins.... Now try and collect.
Once the judgement is awarded the judge will give the looser so long to pay it off. If they dont meet that time frame the winner must go back to court and file a writ with the court to either garnish their wages, their bank account, or even put a lean on any real estate they own to recover your damages eventually when that property sells... If they dont have a job, bank account, or own any property, you're SOL.
golly gee, it's not that fukn complicated, just go and get what's yours
Here are a few examples of cues made! Several I have seen in person! he makes his own blanks! he got his start getting premium wood for Tim Scruggs and now gets some for Black Boar!
Production is/was never the question! The guy makes cues.
Having full details and knowledge of the situation is not why the guy obviously backed out and he knows he backed out!
Why else is he not here complaining? Just a friend that goes off the reservation!
Ps: stuff like this may keep good cue makers from teaching!!!
Additionally, the buyer knew 100% that Black boar had nothing to do with his cue deal! Also knew making waves and threatened the work relationship between Bernie and black boar. A big no-no! With full disclosure made the deal and a friend of his/her lobbing pot shots is not cool!
Kd
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KD, is this guy your best friend or a good friend? I like some of his shaft wood. Should the OP's friend get a full refund?
a few observations/opinions from an intermittently sane person (me).
I lean toward this deal being between the op (and not "a friend") and a guy named Bernie because in the first post the op wrote the reason he didn't get a full refund was "he said I cancelled the order".
There is a legal maxim that refers to "dirty hands" that may apply in this case. If the buyer of the cue knew this Bernie fellow was taking orders or making cues without Tony's blessing (assuming any of this even happened at BB shop) then the buyer also has "dirty hands" so the court is not going to provide any relief - or in this case, AZB shouldn't look to help or sympathize either. This hasn't been determined yet, one way or another.
If Bernie does, in fact, work at BB shop and did have Tony's okay to make and sell cues, and if he did not complete the cue and it's 8 months overdue then unless there was some written agreement specifying a loss of deposit, etc., I think the buyer deserves a *full* refund.
And, if this negative bs is running alongside of Tony's generosity in mentoring Bernie at his shop, it once again proves the old adage that "no good deed goes unpunished".
best,
brian kc
I lean toward this deal being between the op (and not "a friend") and a guy named Bernie because in the first post the op wrote the reason he didn't get a full refund was "he said I cancelled the order".
There is a legal maxim that refers to "dirty hands" that may apply in this case. If the buyer of the cue knew this Bernie fellow was taking orders or making cues without Tony's blessing (assuming any of this even happened at BB shop) then the buyer also has "dirty hands" so the court is not going to provide any relief - or in this case, AZB shouldn't look to help or sympathize either. This hasn't been determined yet, one way or another.
If Bernie does, in fact, work at BB shop and did have Tony's okay to make and sell cues, and if he did not complete the cue and it's 8 months overdue then unless there was some written agreement specifying a loss of deposit, etc., I think the buyer deserves a *full* refund.
And, if this negative bs is running alongside of Tony's generosity in mentoring Bernie at his shop, it once again proves the old adage that "no good deed goes unpunished".
best,
brian kc
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Bingo
we have a winner!!!
now how do we prevent Tony from getting punished for his good deed???
KD
Call Tony up and tell him to start reading and let him sort it out himself.
it would be appropriate for Bernie to give a full refund since for whatever reasons (these really don't matter), he did not meet the agreed completion date by a long shot *if* that's actually what happened.
Again, plenty of guessing and speculating here since the op says he is not the buyer and we haven't heard from the seller.
Not so easy to sort it all out without firsthand info.
best,
brian kc
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Allen,
I do not know the full story! I can only give my opinion and I know the guy and can not say my opinion is unbiased!
If the cue was ready or near ready and Bernard sold the cue to refund the money then in that scenario a full refund may not be appropriate!!!
Vs.
Cue never started and no work done and after the deadline says "refund" then yes a full refund is appropriate!!!
Given the knowledge about health issues and the cue being a side job! I would expect "ALOT" more latitude and understanding regarding the timeline and "estimate" not try to weasle out of the deal on the grounds that some estimated completion date was not met!!!
Kd
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Small claims court.
Have you ever played with any of his cues? They look pretty good.
That could result in him saying "This is more headache then it is worth" Bernie loses!Tony loses! the cue world loses as a result of the knowledge not being passed down from generation to generation!!!
Funny thing is how "VOCAL" bernie is about protecting TONY and Black Boar!!! With all potential customers!!! How else do I have pictures of his cues to post up??? Because, I spoke to him about building a cue! So, I know that he goes over things with all customers to prevent any "Threats" like this to his business relationship with Black Boar and Tony!!!
1st sign of financial trouble with this buyer and Bernie refunds what he can get for the cue and I am certain he would have preferred to give the cue instead of the money! Now, because the amount is $900 less the guy or his friend thinks it is cool to throw bernie and tony under the bus with this smear thread!
This thread is not about applying pressure for the refund. Its about ruining the relationship and business agreement. So, lets not lose sight of what this is about!!!
KD
Funny.
When I talked to Tony at the expo, he showed me a pretty sweet, slim butt player cue that he wanted Hopkins to hit with, and I showed him the 6 pointer 1 of a kind parabolic he made for me.
Good times.
He then went off about how he is sick of people making a killing off his cues, and how now, he would rather go room to room, and sell them himself to players that truly want them, than sell them to these broker guys.
About teaching.
Tony trained Vollmer though. A long time ago.
I don't see him getting upset at Vollmer every time he sells a cue.
So, about this situation of Bernie in his shop.
For all we know, Tony is gladly teaching this guy some of the trade.
For all we know, Tony might get a % of each cue this guy makes, OR, Tony might charge him $$X per cue made. For all we know, Tony might be letting him use the equipment for services rendered, to help the guy get a start in the business.
There are so many different business scenarios that could take place that we aren't privy to. Only way to know is if THEY WANT you to know.
About the money.
I don't order custom cues anymore because of situations like this.
It gets too complicated.
If I ever get another custom, it is COD. I see the cue, I hit with it, I pay for it.
All that pay a big deposit for a cue just so the cuemaker can hold you hostage with it when they don't deliver, will never be me. EVER
When I talked to Tony at the expo, he showed me a pretty sweet, slim butt player cue that he wanted Hopkins to hit with, and I showed him the 6 pointer 1 of a kind parabolic he made for me.
Good times.
He then went off about how he is sick of people making a killing off his cues, and how now, he would rather go room to room, and sell them himself to players that truly want them, than sell them to these broker guys.
About teaching.
Tony trained Vollmer though. A long time ago.
I don't see him getting upset at Vollmer every time he sells a cue.
So, about this situation of Bernie in his shop.
For all we know, Tony is gladly teaching this guy some of the trade.
For all we know, Tony might get a % of each cue this guy makes, OR, Tony might charge him $$X per cue made. For all we know, Tony might be letting him use the equipment for services rendered, to help the guy get a start in the business.
There are so many different business scenarios that could take place that we aren't privy to. Only way to know is if THEY WANT you to know.
About the money.
I don't order custom cues anymore because of situations like this.
It gets too complicated.
If I ever get another custom, it is COD. I see the cue, I hit with it, I pay for it.
All that pay a big deposit for a cue just so the cuemaker can hold you hostage with it when they don't deliver, will never be me. EVER
Would you pay up front for a cue from this guy if you might not get it for 10 or 18 months?? If so I'd say you were a very trusting person. When he's got money trouble, you'll have it too.
Ok. So now Bernie sold the cue and gave the OP a refund of what he got out of the cue? When did this take place? Tony doesn't have anything to do with this cue or transaction so he should be left out of it from now on. No one is trying to ruin Tony's name.
How do Bernard's cues play? They look good.
yes, I have played with a few of his cues and I do like the hit!
The nicest cue of his I have seen is/was just delivered to an Asian guy in Northern Virginia! 8 point full splice made out of bocote and he made matching break cue!
Maryland, DC & VA players see his cues around as he sells totally by word of mouth! He does his sales pitch as described in the thread. But, he knows what he is talking about and gets the information from one of the best cue makers in the world and tons of it. Some that do not know the situation might think it some snake oil sales man stuff. But, with a little research and investigation. People find out the guy is not lying about things.
KD
I feel the need to shed some light on some things mentioned throughout this thread, especially seeing i'm the black girl described here. I'm not one for debates and such, so I intend to make this my first and last post on this discussion.
1. When you saw me I was playing with the cue Bernie made for me. I've had my cue for 1.5 years now and I love it! My cue is in my avatar pic. It was back then that my friend was inquiring about getting a cue of her own because she loved the playability of the cue; she became a customer too.
2. I don't know you and never had anyone chased Bernie away from me :lol:
3. Bernie indeed worked for Black Boar and was allowed by Tony to make his own cues. I've had plenty of times that I went to Tony's shop when my cue was being made and Tony was right there.
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