Cue makers to stay away from

Cue maker

Any knowledge or evidence that this cue was even started? Materials bought?

I'm a big believer in contracts. Everything written down signed by both parties?

Everyone protected. Fulfill your end of the deal and no problems.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
My point and post says that Bernie "Appreciates" his mentor and the knowledge!

My point and post says that Bernie's "Relationship with Black Boar is fragile" and he is vocal with potential customers to avoid any "Misunderstandings" or threats to his agreement and work relationship.

According to the OP, the buyer changed his/her mind??? Yes, he was late but I am sure the cue was done and sold to get the $1200. If that was the case? Then a full refund would not be appropriate? Either take the cue or he sells it and gives you the funds. One or the other.

But, to just say being late is grounds for a "Full" refund is not my understanding of cue business etiquette! Either refund or produce the item is etiquette as I know it??? Not buyer choice if one day, second or minute late!!!

KD
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I never said Bernie didn't appreciate the skills he gained from his mentor so not sure why that was addressed to me.

I never said Bernie was trying to mislead customers about who makes his cues. In fact I one of my main points has been that Bernie has been super clear that it is he who is making the cues and that it has nothing to do with Tony. Again, not sure why this was addressed to me.

The buyer changed his mind but only because the seller failed to honor his end of the agreement (per the information we have). What is considered the "etiquette" in the cue world is arguable at best, but what actually matters anyway is what the law or morality say. In this case they both say that if you can't honor your end of the deal then you have to give a full refund. It's simple really.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
I never said Bernie didn't appreciate the skills he gained from his mentor so not sure why that was addressed to me.

I never said Bernie was trying to mislead customers about who makes his cues. In fact I one of my main points has been that Bernie has been super clear that it is he who is making the cues and that it has nothing to do with Tony. Again, not sure why this was addressed to me.

The buyer changed his mind but only because the seller failed to honor his end of the agreement (per the information we have). What is considered the "etiquette" in the cue world is arguable at best, but what actually matters anyway is what the law or morality say. In this case they both say that if you can't honor your end of the deal then you have to give a full refund. It's simple really.
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I was asked by you to clarify my post and I was trying to do as you asked!!!

I was not addressing these points to you at all! they were elements of the post you asked me to clarify! Points that arouse in the thread that I felt compelled to comment on.

Your feelings on the topic are noted. Just that, I also know that Searing situation! the Showman situation! The list goes on and on situation all ended with the item provided. But, old Bernard is supposed to be forced to refund for a delay!!! That is not fair nor is it reasonable. The above cases were provided the item late and not forced the refund. Just like Dean said he has had many delays and bad experiences with cue makers. But, I never heard of the person not giving the item or the refund. I don't understand "why" so many think nothing was done and the cue was not near completion????

KD
 
So, has it been confirmed here by someone that this guy does or did work in Tony's shop?

I would be surprised if this were the case.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
I was asked by you to clarify my post and I was trying to do as you asked!!!

I was not addressing these points to you at all! they were elements of the post you asked me to clarify! Points that arouse in the thread that I felt compelled to comment on.

Your feelings on the topic are noted. Just that, I also know that Searing situation! the Showman situation! The list goes on and on situation all ended with the item provided. But, old Bernard is supposed to be forced to refund for a delay!!! That is not fair nor is it reasonable. The above cases were provided the item late and not forced the refund. Just like Dean said he has had many delays and bad experiences with cue makers. But, I never heard of the person not giving the item or the refund. I don't understand "why" so many think nothing was done and the cue was not near completion????

KD
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Those were the things you were saying in response to my post that you quoted. That is why I asked why you were saying those things to me, because you said them while quoting my post. If they were meant in general to nobody in particular, and not to me specifically, then it is a good idea to say that otherwise it just looks like you are talking directly to the person you are quoting. Know what I mean?

So just because Searing and Showman got away with something means we should just let everybody get away with it? Did you really think that one out? Makes no sense at all.

Here is the bottom line. Assuming the info we have is accurate, dude was 8 months late getting the cue made. Eight months. Sorry, the cue maker failed to honor the contract (and yes verbal contracts are almost always legal contracts) and as such the buyer has a right to a full refund. The contract/agreement was not for a cue at some point before he dies. The seller was paying for a cue by X date. It might be one thing if the cue were a week or two late, maybe even a month. But 8 months? No excuse and not even close. And whether somebody else decided to let Showman or anyone else get away with it is immaterial.

This really can't be any more simple or any more clear cut legally (or morally for that matter). When you fail to deliver what was promised to the buyer (which was X cue by Y date), and especially if you didn't even get remotely close to delivering what was promised (8 months is not remotely close), the buyer is entitle to a full refund.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
Those were the things you were saying in response to my post that you quoted. That is why I asked why you were saying those things to me, because you said them while quoting my post. If they were meant in general to nobody in particular, and not to me specifically, then it is a good idea to say that otherwise it just looks like you are talking directly to the person you are quoting. Know what I mean?

So just because Searing and Showman got away with something means we should just let everybody get away with it? Did you really think that one out? Makes no sense at all.

Here is the bottom line. Assuming the info we have is accurate, dude was 8 months late getting the cue made. Eight months. Sorry, the cue maker failed to honor the contract (and yes verbal contracts are almost always legal contracts) and as such the buyer has a right to a full refund. The contract/agreement was not for a cue at some point before he dies. The seller was paying for a cue by X date. It might be one thing if the cue were a week or two late, maybe even a month. But 8 months? No excuse and not even close. And whether somebody else decided to let Showman or anyone else get away with it is immaterial.

This really can't be any more simple or any more clear cut legally (or morally for that matter). When you fail to deliver what was promised to the buyer (which was X cue by Y date), and especially if you didn't even get remotely close to delivering what was promised (8 months is not remotely close), the buyer is entitle to a full refund.
Click to expand...

i quoted one section of your post only! It was post number 48 in this thread and I even made it red! That is where you were hard on critics of Bernie! I chimed in to explain why I thought it was in "Bad taste"

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5552444&postcount=48

Regarding the refund, All I can say is that I disagree. Technically, you are 100% correct. But, I would not ask for a cue built to my specs from a part time builder who i know is doing it on the side with their free time. Just would not be shocked by a delay! I would not change my mind either as it would be something I really wanted. Not, a change of heart or my car broke down situation.

Regardless the reason, Bernard meet his obligation to the best of his ability of providing the cue or a refund. One or the other!!! Refund required locating another buyer and replacement sale.

Kd
 
Last edited:
Testosterone is flying now. It's hot outside. Go find a good quiet place sit back relax and drink a cold one or two.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
i quoted one section of your post only! It was post number 48 in this thread and I even made it red! That is where you were hard on critics of Bernie! I chimed in to explain why I thought it was in "Bad taste"

Regarding the refund, All I can say is that I disagree. Technically, you are 100% correct. But, I would not ask for a cue built to my specs from a part time builder who i know is doing it on the side with their free time. Just would not be shocked by a delay! I would not change my mind either as it would be something I really wanted. Not, a change of heart or my car broke down situation.

Regardless the reason, Bernard meet his obligation to the best of his ability of providing the cue or a refund. One or the other!!! Refund required locating another buyer and replacement sale.

Kd
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If they guy says he can build the cue on an agreed schedule and fails to meet that schedule, for whatever reason, then we have a problem that needs to be rectified.

How we rectify it is another matter.

If you feed me a line of BS, or don't answer my inquiries, then that becomes a more significant matter to me, as the buyer. Especially, since you have my money.

If you have no legitimate, to me, reason for delaying for months and months, I expect a FULL REFUND.

I don't give a damn if the guy is a part-time maker or Balabushka.
 
HawaiianEye said:
If they guy says he can build the cue on an agreed schedule and fails to meet that schedule, for whatever reason, then we have a problem that needs to be rectified.

How we rectify it is another matter.

If you feed me a line of BS, or don't answer my inquiries, then that becomes a more significant matter to me, as the buyer. Especially, since you have my money.

If you have no legitimate, to me, reason for delaying for months and months, I expect a FULL REFUND.

I don't give a damn if the guy is a part-time maker or Balabushka.
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Poolplaya9 said:
Those were the things you were saying in response to my post that you quoted. That is why I asked why you were saying those things to me, because you said them while quoting my post. If they were meant in general to nobody in particular, and not to me specifically, then it is a good idea to say that otherwise it just looks like you are talking directly to the person you are quoting. Know what I mean?

So just because Searing and Showman got away with something means we should just let everybody get away with it? Did you really think that one out? Makes no sense at all.

Here is the bottom line. Assuming the info we have is accurate, dude was 8 months late getting the cue made. Eight months. Sorry, the cue maker failed to honor the contract (and yes verbal contracts are almost always legal contracts) and as such the buyer has a right to a full refund. The contract/agreement was not for a cue at some point before he dies. The seller was paying for a cue by X date. It might be one thing if the cue were a week or two late, maybe even a month. But 8 months? No excuse and not even close. And whether somebody else decided to let Showman or anyone else get away with it is immaterial.

This really can't be any more simple or any more clear cut legally (or morally for that matter). When you fail to deliver what was promised to the buyer (which was X cue by Y date), and especially if you didn't even get remotely close to delivering what was promised (8 months is not remotely close), the buyer is entitle to a full refund.
Click to expand...

Posts like these are why I am glad I am not a cue maker!!!

But, how people think somethings that are custom and to their specs is to be refunded if even a minute late on the "Estimate" ETA of the item is just a bit too much! I only do business with people I know and like for the most part. I have had problems! But, it was never something I could not do with out. additionally, I lived close enough to go knock on the door or knew someone very close to lean on the maker and get it done!

When the maker says he thinks 8 months or around christmas & etc. They are not writing this stuff in blood!!! But, if you are going the formal and in writing route then all parties know and understand.

But, every cue deal I have seen for years has been a hand shake and that is the way it should be!!! Or else you two should not be doing business together at all!!!

Just My opinion!!!!

KD
 
Kid Dynomite said:
i quoted one section of your post only! It was post number 48 in this thread and I even made it red! That is where you were hard on critics of Bernie! I chimed in to explain why I thought it was in "Bad taste"

Regarding the refund, All I can say is that I disagree. Technically, you are 100% correct. But, I would not ask for a cue built to my specs from a part time builder who i know is doing it on the side with their free time. Just would not be shocked by a delay! I would not change my mind either as it would be something I really wanted. Not, a change of heart or my car broke down situation.

Regardless the reason, Bernard meet his obligation to the best of his ability of providing the cue or a refund. One or the other!!! Refund required locating another buyer and replacement sale.

Kd
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If you are just replying only to a very specific part of a post it might be better to just delete the rest of it then and only quote the part you are replying to to avoid confusion.

The part of my post that was in red, that you are now telling me is the only part you were replying to, had absolutely nothing at all to do with Bernie, so you apparently misunderstood that and therefore none or what you were saying applied or made any sense.

As for the refund situation, again, just because you would allow extra time does not mean that is what should have been done. No judge on earth is going to say 8 months past due on a cue build is excusable unless the initial quote was for a 10 year build time in which case maybe, possibly, 10 years and 8 months to deliver instead of exactly 10 years might be reasonable. Nobody else without bias is going to feel that a buyer should have to accept something being 8 months past due either. It isn't even remotely close to what was promised and if the buyer wants a refund because of it, he is well within his right both legally and morally.

Whether Bernie met his obligation to the best of his ability or not is immaterial. He either met his obligation, or he didn't. His obligation was to give the buyer what he agree to and paid for which was X cue by Y date. He met the obligation or he didn't meet it, which one was it? Like I said, if he was close that might be one thing. Eight months isn't even close. Best of his ability doesn't matter, he either honored his end of the deal, or he didn't. I think it is clear he didn't honor his end of the deal and he wasn't even remotely close for that matter.

If refund requires locating another buyer you have no business selling things or having a business. That money wasn't even his to spend until the deal is done anyway. He needs to give a refund immediately upon demand if the buyer asks for it because of his failure to honor his end of the deal. If he doesn't have the money that is his problem, not the buyers, and he better find a way to come up with it immediately. How do you figure that should be the buyers problem? If you don't have enough money to do things like cover refunds like I said you have no business selling things or having a business to begin with.
 
CJH said:
So, has it been confirmed here by someone that this guy does or did work in Tony's shop?

I would be surprised if this were the case.
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That's a good question. So far I think we have one for sure yes and one for sure no.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Posts like these are why I am glad I am not a cue maker!!!

But, how people think somethings that are custom and to their specs is to be refunded if even a minute late on the "Estimate" ETA of the item is just a bit too much! I only do business with people I know and like for the most part. I have had problems! But, it was never something I could not do with out. additionally, I lived close enough to go knock on the door or knew someone very close to lean on the maker and get it done!

When the maker says he thinks 8 months or around christmas & etc. They are not writing this stuff in blood!!! But, if you are going the formal and in writing route then all parties know and understand.

But, every cue deal I have seen for years has been a hand shake and that is the way it should be!!! Or else you two should not be doing business together at all!!!

Just My opinion!!!!

KD
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The only problem here is people like you who don't think people should have to do what they were contracted to do, don't have to do what they agreed to do, or don't have to keep their word. That is the real problem, people like the cue maker in question and you.

Like I said, it isn't like this was a ten year cue build that went over by eight months which might at least be considered "close" and maybe you could make an argument. If you are over by eight months on say a one year cue build that is not even remotely close. Again, the problem is people like you that no longer see the importance in honoring a contract/promise/agreement/their word. That's the real problem.
 
Pool playa

I am forced to be blunt! Why are you beating a dead horse? I said you are 100% correct technically!

But, you can't see the merit in my point! Hand shake vs written in blood!

Both should be the same but are not!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
Kid Dynomite said:
I could answer your question but why go there? Not my place to put out!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
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Actually I was taking you as the one that said yes , or at least in some capacity at some point. No worries I can respect that you don't wanna talk about it bro.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Not Bernie

But, lost in all of this is the fact that Tony takes time to teach and give back. I know Donnie and two others have learned a great deal from Tony's kindness!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
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I was just picking at you. Adding more fuel to the fire if you will.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Pool playa

I am forced to be blunt! Why are you beating a dead horse? I said you are 100% correct technically!

But, you can't see the merit in my point! Hand shake vs written in blood!

Both should be the same but are not!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

No I don't see your point at all other than your point seems to be let cue makers take as long as they want regardless of what they promised and contracted for. I will never agree with you on that until the day I die.

I'm not saying that means that at a minute past midnight when the deadline passes you should necessarily rush to get a refund. It depends on how late it is, and whether there are good reasons for it. Sorry, but 8 months isn't even remotely close and there are no good reasons left any more after this amount of time. I can't fathom how anybody could find his wanting and deserving a full and immediate refund as being even the least bit unreasonable or unwarranted.
 
A cue maker can't deliver a cue within 10 months of a promised date despite being fully pre-paid, repeatedly misses new deadlines and keeps a portion of the deposit when the customer decides enough is enough and cancel the contract.

Judgement to plaintiff, breach of contract due to failure to perform, $900 plus interest and legal fees. Case closed.
 
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