Cue Prices... Rediiculous!!!

Johnny "V" said:
I feel as though my table is a one of a kind and I would never sell it. So as I figure it is priceless. But it falls into a different catagory. i never built it to sell.
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I realize your table is priceless and a one of a kind. I agree you should never sell it. But now you have the knowledge to build another one, would you?

Assuming that you already have the equipment, facilities and materials to do so. Or rather, could you make a quality production table (like a GC or Diamond) at a competitive price?

I think I know the answer. See you tonight.

Rick
 
Cues are exspensive. I always look for a few things in a cue before I make A purchase. Playabilty is the most important factor for me. Also if I am going to spend alot of money on a cue quality and workmanship should be top notch as well. I dont want to see glue lines or wavy/sloppy venneer work. Another thing I look for is resale value. Will this cue sell for close to what I paid for it? I think these are just a couple of questions you should be asking yourself before you spend alot of money on a new cue.
 
The market sets the actual price of virtually everything. Even if you don't agree with the pricing, enough other people do and each cue maker finds his selling point.

Ever think about how much "material" Microsoft has in a copy of MS Office? R&D, support, advertising are their costs. Look at their gross profit to find the new definition of "gross"!
 
build it yourself

i have only been building cues for 5 years, but this seems to me a common question[ problem]. people telling me what my time is worth. i have had prospective buyers trying to tell me how to build cue and telling me how much they should cost, why i should do it there way. etc etc. if its so easy, so cheap, and anyone can do, then why dont you just build your own cue and quit complaning about how we build ours. if you have never built a cue then how the hell do you know what it takes and what we should charge. no one knows what my time is worth accept me. remember walmart sells pool sticks maybe thats where you should do your shopping.
 
Hello Johnny "V". If you believe "cue makers are earning way too much" than don't by their cues. You way want to consider investing in a cue making shop, purchase all the equipment, materials, rent space and you are in buisness. All you need to do is maybe by a couple of video tapes on cue building and before you know it customers will be beating down your door to spend $ 300.00 on a SP or $ 1,500.00 on a four point.

It sure sounds easy and the talent part...

I have been buying and collecting cues for about 25 + years and from experience I know most cue makers are grossly under paid for their time and talent.
 
Purdman said:
I agree, It's more like $80 for up to $1,600 cues and $130 for high end cues. Material cost only!
Purdman
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those figures can be very low, especially if ivory, abalone, silver ect.... are used. ivory, abalone and silver sheets aren't cheap. not to mention the cutters that have a tendency to break milling them. adding, and to also comment on the posters original question, it's not only the materials that make the cues more desirable. just ask any well known painter (the one's still alive that is). let's see, what were their materials used again?.... canvas and the wood it was stretched on. what's that about $30 bucks? under some assumptions that could mean those paintings could only worth at max, what, 100 times more than the materials? we know that not to be the case. the point is a cue's value is determined by it "artist" and the buyers in the market who know what to look for. the same thing happens with many other inanimate objects. the buyers look for "uniqueness with execution". top that off with limited production of that artful work and the relatively small number of people who can afford them and the prices can be hard to contain at times.
 
skins said:
those figures can be very low, especially if ivory, abalone, silver ect.... are used. ivory, abalone and silver sheets aren't cheap. not to mention the cutters that have a tendency to break milling them. adding, and to also comment on the posters original question, it's not only the materials that make the cues more desirable. just ask any well known painter (the one's still alive that is). let's see, what were their materials used again?.... canvas and the wood it was stretched on. what's that about $30 bucks? under some assumptions that could mean those paintings could only worth at max, what, 100 times more than the materials? we know that not to be the case. the point is a cue's value is determined by it "artist" and the buyers in the market who know what to look for. the same thing happens with many other inanimate objects. the buyers look for "uniqueness with execution". top that off with limited production of that artful work and the relatively small number of people who can afford them and the prices can be hard to contain at times.
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Exactly......Your price quotes of 300 for a SP and 1500 for a 4 point are way high. Unless you are talking about the big boys that have the reputation that they had to earn. Scruggs, White, Mottey, and so forth. Go find a local custom cue maker and ask him to build you a simple sneaky resembling those of Mr. Frey. See if their price is over 300 like his are. With the respect and demand they have the price comes with it. If you don't want to spend alot. Then go look for a little cuemaker. I'm sure they make stuff alot cheaper than you expect.

Tony
 
As with anything in life - you get what you pay for. High end [anything] is typically made with better materials and better craftsmanship. Don't skimp on your first cue - you'll just end up with two ;)

Most of us had to save and save to get our "dream" cue. All you really need is a goal and a little persistence. It might take a year, or two, or even 5, but in the end you'll have what you want.

-td
 
True custom cuemakers are more artists than cuemakers. They are artists who design and construct pool cues. Their work is often unique to the world, like many other fine pieces of art--- paintings, sculptures, etc... which many people consider valuable.
Asking why art is so expensive is really a subjective question. "Value" is all in the eye of the beholder. The million dollar paintings don't hang on the wall a million dollars better than the hundred dollar ones, and the thousands-of-dollars pool cues don't play thousands of dollars better than the hundreds-of-dollars cues. The difference in their value is based on the simple fact that certain people are willing to pay certain prices to own items that most others don't have.


Somebody posted the question earlier "What, are you (the people who buy the high-end cues) made out of money?" The answer is obviously yes!

Things are only expensive if you can't and do not desire to afford them...

And what's valuable to one man may be worthless to another.

If this wasn't true, everything would cost the same;)

Rick P.
 
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Perhaps I missed it, perhaps not.....but are you referring to pricing as in ordering directly from the cuemaker, or in reference to pricing as you see it on the secondary market? There can be a BIG difference.

Typically, and depending on the cuemaker, you are going to get your better pricing directly from the maker. The maker knows what they will have into the cue, and have the option of pricing out accordingly. As a rule, I do not discuss pricing I may get directly from a cuemaker...for all I know, I may be catching a break, or I may not...and that is purely the cuemakers' discretion.

Now, the above statement applies strictly to those cues that have been custom ordered directly from the maker.

I have found, that on a new cue coming from a cuemaker that has not been specifically designed for anyone in particular....usually...you can get a good price from a dealer. This statement does not apply for those cuemakers who have long or closed waiting lists.

Now the secondary market is a bit of a crap shoot....depending on the cuemaker. In the original retail 1K-2K range, the market seems to be somewhat flat currently...and there are some very good deals to be had. The really highend stuff seems to be holding it's own, as is, for the most part, the sub-1K stuff.

Right now, I find the sub-1K market rather exciting. There are some very fine cues out there in the 300.00-600.00 range!! Look at what Pat Diveney is doing currently....beautiful cues!! I also hear that they are amazing players too. He is certainly on my list. Brent Hartmann is also doing some very nice work...and I hear they play pretty sporty too. There are quite a few new cuemakers on this forum alone, that are offering a great value for your dollar...Chuck Starkey, J&D Cues, Fisher Cues...to name a few. Now if you want a well known name...expect to pay a little bit more...they've earned their oats, so to speak....still some great values, IMHO.....Josey, Callaluca, Mordt, Klein...to mention a few.

I really do not see the problem here......there are just sooooo many options out there right now, at so many different price-points that there is something out there for everyone! Just 5 years ago we didn't have the choices that are available now...there weren't as many cuemakers.

I have said it once, and I'll say it again.....cuemakers, as a rule, are not getting rich off of making cues...they are doing it for the love of the craft, and the love of the game...not for the almighty dollar! (But getting paid for it is always nice. :) )

Lisa
 
TrickyRicky said:
True custom cuemakers are more artists than cuemakers. They are artists who design and construct pool cues. Their work is often unique to the world, like many other fine pieces of art--- paintings, sculptures, etc... which many people consider valuable.
Asking why art is so expensive is really a subjective question. "Value" is all in the eye of the beholder. The million dollar paintings don't hang on the wall a million dollars better than the hundred dollar ones, and the thousands-of-dollars pool cues don't play thousands of dollars better than the hundreds-of-dollars cues. The difference in their value is based on the simple fact that certain people are willing to pay certain prices to own items that most others don't have.


Somebody posted the question earlier "What, are you (the people who buy the high-end cues) made out of money?" The answer is obviously yes!

Things are only expensive if you can't and do not desire to afford them...

And what's valuable to one man may be worthless to another.

If this wasn't true, everything would cost the same;)

Rick P.
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i agree 100%, nice post.
 
are prices up?

this thread got me thinking, the guy that works on my mercedes charges me $110.00 per hr. the last plumber i had out cost me $80.00 per hr with a 6 hr minimum. the guy that set up my new computer charged me $60.00 per hr. when i go to the doctor i get charged per minute, and dont even ask me about my attorney fees. $3.50 a gallon gas. and you are complaning about a cue maker trying to make $20.00 an hour eating sawdust. you have just made me realize my cues are worth a lot more. thank you for calling this to my attention. chuck starkey
 
The cue builders that have gotten to the point that they can "Earn A Living" at building cues have paid there dues. Just look at how picky people are about how perfect every aspect of every inlay and point is regardless of how well the cue plays. Many cuemakers scrap cues that aren't perfect. Some customers expect the unachievable and some cue makers still try. There's lots of wasted time and materials as well as unexpected loss in time and materials in that business.

Yes some customers like to brag on how much their cue is worth but the guy building it, if it's a real quality cue, has had this cue in process for many months. My custom cue wasn't paid for till it was finished and that was the builders policy. It took 4 months for a cue that was close finished before it was ready to send out.

I'm not a cue maker but if I was and I had the reputation of making one of the best hitting cues on earth as well as fine inlay work, I'd have to charge a lot for my product because my customer base would demand perfection and I'd need to spend the time to make absolutely sure the only reason for one of my cues to be rejected is that the customer needed therapy.

So under those circumstances how many cues do you think can be made in a year? And what is a reasonable yearly income in this day and age?
Simply divide that number by 52 and you'll see what it takes. Now the top builders may not put out 1 cue per week but if they do I don't think $52K (@ $1000 a cue) per year income is not an extroidinary income.

It's my wish that all the best in any profession are paid very well for their efforts and knowledge. I never gripe about what someone else makes. I simply wish them well and wish I could do the same.
 
Reality check

With all due respect, it is always easy to sit in the stands and complain that the quarterback never plays well. If you have built your own table, and it took you 8 months, and you would never build another, perhaps you answered your own question. I have "basic" tooling and it is worth about 30K. Chris, I love you for enabling people to make their own cues, but tell the real cost of your tooling. How much is your mill alone worth new? Did you pay somewhere in the range of $500.00-$1,000.00 to move it and set it up? How many years did you spend in someone elses' shop sanding and cleaning up, just to see what they were doing? I have about 30K in just wood inventoried and it doesn't look like that much to me. Most high speed spindles are 3-5K alone. I have cabinet making equipment ( and I use most everything that I have learned and accumulated to try to make one of a kind cues that no one else has produced). It took me 4 years to produce/perfect my forearm and I am a mill man! I invested the last 7 years of my life producing my cues, and I spent 25 years playing pool to understand what I was trying to build. How much is almost every free moment of your time worth? One of my mentors told me: " I will show you what I do, it doesn't mean you can do it!" Do you really think you can buy a few thousand dollars worth of cuemaking equipment and a book and be a craftsman? I honestly think you are a craftsman (you seem to have built a beautiful table), and I wish you the best, but let me tell you that a nice cue takes about 15-30 hrs. to complete for someone who is proficient. Millwork is $60.00/hr just to turn on the lights. Do the math. I have and I simply have to love what I do! If you can name me one wealthy cuemaker, who made his money cuemaking, I would like to talk to that man. I appologize if I was harsh, but it is hard to take a black eye with sawdust in every orafice! Advice: Dufferin makes a fine cue under $100.00. Best of luck in your buisness, I'm sure it pays more than mine, I just happen to love what I do, Kent
 
ridewiththewind said:
I have said it once, and I'll say it again.....cuemakers are not getting rich off of making cues...they are doing it for the love of the craft, and the love of the game...not for the almighty dollar! (But getting paid for it is always nice. :) )

Lisa
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Thanks Kent, this supports what I have always felt to be true. I will always feel that way. Personally, I consider it a privilege to be able to obtain some of the cues I have...and am ever grateful for the time, patience, and attention to detail that these cues have exhibited, by their respective craftsmen.
 
Johnny "V" said:
How can cue makers justify how much they sell a cue for? It amazes me that people will spend more than 300 for a sp and over 1000 for a plain jane. Never mind a regular 4 point cue starting at 1500. What??? Do you all have money to burn???

Ok so the equipment is expensive... But for what they make on 3 cues pays for at least the lathe maybe even the pantograph. the wood is not that expensive. Blanks range in price from 6 bucks to over 100 (but that is for the highly figured really rare stuff). Yes time is money but with todays equipment how much time does a cuemaker spend cutting points and doing inlays? I would figure that they cannot account for time spent with the cue hanging from the ceiling.

And comes the final argument... Do you pay for the paint and the canvas that the artist uses on a painting or do you pay for the talent that the artist has? I agree with that concept but not everyone is Da Vinci. I can undersand the rarity of a Southwest, G. Szamboti or a Balibushka because those people could not make a cue ever again. But to have some of the relativily unknown charge 1200 bucks for a cue is outragous.

Its not that I could not purchase one of these cues. I just cannot justify in my head why I would pay so much for one. I guess I look @ purchases as being one of "How much did it cost to make?" and "Do I feel as though what I bought was worth the money?". Maybe I am looking at it all wrong.
I think in todays market the idea of "If people are willing to pay that much for it I am willing to charge for it" has gotten out of hand.

This post reminds me of another one I did around 7 years ago about pool tables.. Looks like I might be coming out with a new website... "My Quest to build a high end pool cue!"

JV <----- Tired of looking @ cues that his single family obligations will not let him afford.
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from your signiture....quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat (Those whom God wills to destroy he first deprives of their senses)...I think you've lost your sense of what peoples time and expertise is worth.

Last month my tub clogged after some futile time with a plunger and chemicals I called Roto-Rooter. WHAM BAM BOOM...30 minutes running water for $156.00. Was I happy. You bet. Is this guy worth $300.00 a hour? Well he's got to drive in and back. Truck, insurance, dispatch fee, tools. What if he broke my tub or ruined a pipe? I bet you all in he made $40.00 a hour. If he's self employed contractor. I don't want just anybody touching my cue. Paying someone less than allows him to operate does nobody any good. He can't afford to keep doing it and he won't be there the next time you need him.

Do you go to the cheapest doctor in town? I hope you don't get sick. Cues take manpower. Want cheap. Buy massed produced Chinese. You get what you get when you get it. Don't expect to get a custom suit for $300.00. I'll gladly pay you $200.00 to make me a Sneaky Pete.

19 Ounces, 58", Stiff, Hitting, 4 Point cue. Where should I send my deposit? I'll come back to the forum and post review.

Nick
 
:) JV>tired of looking at cues because of family obligations........JV i never got tired of looking at beautiful cues..when i retired a few years ago i continued looking and dreaming...then one day i came across Chris Hightowers site.(www.hightowercues.com)..there it was the ultimate cue that was made just for me....at about $4,000.00 i just looked and looked for over a month..sure a $200.00 cue will shoot well.but this had all the looks for me..then i thought what the hell..i don't have anything real special..i worked 2 jobs all my life..i figured all my committments were taken care of so i bought it..it was my ultimate cue..you know the one you dream about and when you get it it plays and looks better than you could have imagined.the cue you will never sell..well someday you will be writing a similiar story..until then enjoy your family and the game..when that day comes for you it will be a special one for sure...Good luck to you...:)
 
I never once after buying something nice said to myself-

"man this is too nice, I should have bought something crappy"

I have said the reverse however.
 
Look, even though the beginning of this thread was written as though I was pissed off or frustrated about the cuemaker asking too much for their cues I think some have taken what I typed wrong. The questions in the first post were more of an observation of the people buying cues. I looking to buy cues fall into that catagory but can not justify it because of the expense that it has become. Back in 1990 I bought a custom (yea I know its not) Huebler for 75 bucks. It was an average cue. In 1999 I replaced that cue with a Joss for around 120 bucks. Seven years later the same type of cue is over 300 to 400 bucks. I really do not know what the price of a custom cue maker like SW or JossWest or TS or T. Wayne because I was not in the market for cues of that calibur @ the time. But I do know that Arnot was selling his for around 3-5 hundred and you could get a SP for around 150.

The real question was not- why do cuemakers charge as much as they do, it really is why did the market increase the way that it did and how do you justify paying it.

As Rick asked before now that I have gained the knowledge of tables; Would I build another one and if I did could I be competitive with the market. As Fresh prince says in all his movies... "Awww, HELL NO!" Building one table has probably given me more experience than a lot of table mechanics but it by no means has made me proficient enough to produce tables for the market.

Even though it has already happened I appologize for pissing off the cuemakers I did. My post was not directed @ you, just the market that drives what you manufacture and sell. More power to you if you can make a living at what you do best. And I am not one to put a price on your time. I was more interested in how your times price was derived from the people that fund the market. Obviously you can charge what you do because the market allows for it. Hell if you weren't selling cues you wouldn't be doing it.

I don't want a chinese cue, nor a production cue. I have 2 Joss's right now that are just fine. I recently started looking at customs because I wanted to see what was out there and was somewhat surprised.

JV<-- I have A.D.D. and will be over this soon... Wanna go ride a bike?
 
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Cue Prices

I am sure some prices are the result of supply and demand. The famous, skilled cuemakers should charge what the market will pay. They have paid their dues and owe us nothing. I doubt any cuemakers are worth millions from build ing custom cues alone. Many markets are set by people with more money than knowledge. In 1979 I purchased a 1973 Joss, 4 nice pts., and veneers. The cue was built by Dan Janes, probably with Tim Scruggs help after Bill Stroud left to start Joss West. Nobody ever talks about this type of cue and maybe it is worth 800-1000 ? I don't know. What I do know in regards to cue building is I have a small piece of 3 cuemakers history. Most buyers would not be as concerned with this as they would a current trend that was moving prices up. What's my point ? For me nostalgia and history are more important. For some playability and for others prestige. Value is very subjective.
 
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