For a new cuemaker, what's a reasonable price to charge for a cue? Any suggestions?
Cue Pricing
- Thread starter Lexicologist71
- Start date
It depends on the cue design, the materials used, where you live, and the quality of your work. Remember that if you undervalue your own work attempting to sell it, so will everyone else. It is my opinion that you need to log the cost of materials and the time taken to complete each and every cue you make. And don't forget to add all of the cost of materials in, like adhesives and even supplies you use like paper towels and sand paper. Come to terms with how much you want to be able to pay yourself per hour and price the cue accordingly.
How much does an entry level trades person make in your market? If you don't pay yourself the same you are telling your customers that a local carpenter or painter is more skilled at their trade than you are. I even charge for repairs this way with only published pricing for tip replacement and wraps. If a customer doesn't think my time is worth $20 per hour they are not someone I want as a customer.
You also have to be careful not to overvalue your cues. Much of how much you will be able to charge depends on the area that you live in. For a plain cue my start price was $350. I just bumped it up to $400 at the beginning of the year. You may have to let a couple go cheap to get the ball rolling.
I sold my first pj maple with purple dye for $200. That's the only cue I've sold. I do have some folks interested in cues, but I'm wondering if I should let a few more go for cheap to get some cues out there.
That was to cheap. Many charge that much for a shaft. You can't expect to charge as much as a builder with a history but you can't give your talents away either. My plain Jane, no inlay cues but with nicer wood and deco-rings at A,B,C,D and E start at 425.00 And I build my cues at a lower price than most whom have the same credibility. I don't have as much time in a cue as most as I have so many machines set up for one operation.
I would say that I wouldn't use non-figured wood for any cues however. The wood sells the cue. Good Birdseye or Curly with a purple stain looks good and costs little or use purple heart which is one of the cheapest woods around.
I wouldn't sell for less than 300.00 if I were you. That should be no problem to sell as it's not much more than an import cue but it is a custom. You gain experience, a name and pay some of the bills.
Although I build my cues for less profit than many, I'm only building to fill time between repairs. My repair charges run between 50 and 225.00 per hour depending on the repair.
Dick
Dick
You can buy a dyed maple McDermott for about the same $200 new. If it had plain collars, nothing special in the way of materials and a single shaft, that might be a reasonable price for your first cue. But how much time did you have into it? And what was your material cost? Just keep in mind that the more cues you sell at $200 the more people will be expecting to buy another one for $200. Do you want people to value the custom cue you make the same that they would value a low end McDermott?
The first two cues I sold were house cue conversions with fancy joint collars, one with leather wrap, one with linen, simple dot patterned inlaid butt sleeves and two shafts from AAA blanks. I sold both within 30 minutes of setting up at a tournament where I was doing repairs for $350 each. I was thrilled about it until reality set in. I had successfully sold shafts with similar ring work to customers for $150, it was stupid to value the Butt of the cue at only $50. If I would have priced them at $500 I could have accepted a lower offer if needed and I wouldn't have had to tell anyone no to making more for only $350.
I would charge more.
Area must matter alot
In my area i could not get $300 for a pj cue with nice wood deco rings and special clear jobs. When i say special clear jobs i mean pearl and flip flops in the clear. The ideas were my bros being he is a mechanic but people around here have no $. All of the factories have laid off and closed up so we have about 3 really nice pj cues that we have been setting on for 2yrs now. For a 4 point blank finished out with nice wood and phenolic pin and adjustable weight im hoping to get $160. I know this sucks but until i get established and an online store its what im gonna have to do i think.
In my area i could not get $300 for a pj cue with nice wood deco rings and special clear jobs. When i say special clear jobs i mean pearl and flip flops in the clear. The ideas were my bros being he is a mechanic but people around here have no $. All of the factories have laid off and closed up so we have about 3 really nice pj cues that we have been setting on for 2yrs now. For a 4 point blank finished out with nice wood and phenolic pin and adjustable weight im hoping to get $160. I know this sucks but until i get established and an online store its what im gonna have to do i think.
Area does matter and if your in an area, like Dick, that you can live on the repairs and making cues is secondary than more power to ya. Many of us do not or are not so lucky. Still, my cues start at $450.00 for a 6-pie laminated butt with collars and a 6-pie laminated shaft. I refuse to work for $10.00/day plus rice.
I bought the house I am in now because it came with a 1700sf garage. I converted some of it into storage area and the rest is shop including spray booth and a table room big enough for a 4 1/2 x 9+. I then had a new meter put on the incoming electric service, added a 200 amp box in the garage, added an air pump for heat and air, then added humidity control, bought approximately $7,000.00 worth of insulation, 2x4's, 2x6's, 2x10's, wiring, outlets, drywall ect to build the inside of the garage into something usful. Then I added to the machines and tools I already had by buying, over a couple of years, another 3 lathes, bandsaw, jointer, planer, making a spray booth and 3 benches, more tooling and more wood and...for another $8-9,000.00 So, am I now supposed to make cues for $250 each? As it is I may be dead and gone before ever recovering what I have into making cues but thinking that I am making something off every cue I sell is better than knowing I am making nothing off each one.
Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
I bought the house I am in now because it came with a 1700sf garage. I converted some of it into storage area and the rest is shop including spray booth and a table room big enough for a 4 1/2 x 9+. I then had a new meter put on the incoming electric service, added a 200 amp box in the garage, added an air pump for heat and air, then added humidity control, bought approximately $7,000.00 worth of insulation, 2x4's, 2x6's, 2x10's, wiring, outlets, drywall ect to build the inside of the garage into something usful. Then I added to the machines and tools I already had by buying, over a couple of years, another 3 lathes, bandsaw, jointer, planer, making a spray booth and 3 benches, more tooling and more wood and...for another $8-9,000.00 So, am I now supposed to make cues for $250 each? As it is I may be dead and gone before ever recovering what I have into making cues but thinking that I am making something off every cue I sell is better than knowing I am making nothing off each one.
Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
-Buyers perspective-
If it takes money, it's a hobby.
If it makes money, it's a job.
Most hobbies turn into jobs with experience, quality and the ability to prioritize.
I hate to say it, but on the whole, pool players are cheap. Everybody wants a 2k cue for $400 or a race to 10. While I don't gamble over pool, a fair amount due. Most look at a cue as a piece of sporting equipment, not functional art. Bob Runde, Eric Crisp and my local guy charge within $25 of each other for a shaft. Guess where I get my shafts?
If it takes money, it's a hobby.
If it makes money, it's a job.
Most hobbies turn into jobs with experience, quality and the ability to prioritize.
I hate to say it, but on the whole, pool players are cheap. Everybody wants a 2k cue for $400 or a race to 10. While I don't gamble over pool, a fair amount due. Most look at a cue as a piece of sporting equipment, not functional art. Bob Runde, Eric Crisp and my local guy charge within $25 of each other for a shaft. Guess where I get my shafts?
We have many thousands of dollars invested in materials and equipment that's needed for cue work. It's real easy to get in the trap of working for little of nothing in order to recover some of these expenses. I got in that trap several years ago. I would take in just about any work available to try and re-coup some of my investment. I won't go there again. Build a quality cue and ask a fair price. If you get the reputation of being a whore with low prices, you'll struggle later on to get the respect your work deserves.
I guess Walmart and every electronics manufacturer in the world missed that lesson. The last poster said it correctly. You can lose money and do it as a hobby or make money and do it as a job (by the way the IRS wants you to include hobby money, profit/loss, in your tax return also). Most of us do not own a bank, railroad or automobile manufacturing company and so will not get bailed out when we go bankrupt by having higher overhead than sales income for an extended period of time - meaning until we go broke. In the mean time many supplement their cue making income with a real job or savings. The number of people that can sell a cue for less than a living wage and sell enough of them to make ends meet are few and far between and the idea of working 80+ hours a week to make a 40 hour week paycheck is not for me. I base the cost of my cues on the cost of materials, overhead and time. If I can't earn a living at it I do something else.
If makers are selling cues or repairs for less than they have into it, they are complete morons. Hobby or not, they are morons.
My point is, when you price your cues, make sure not to start out too high. When you post a cue for sale at $750, get no offers, bump to $650, then $550, you get the idea... It doesn't look good for your cue or brand. If you start at $550 and sell out, bump up to $650 next time.
<~~Walmart doesn't lose money on anything....
I have tried very hard to understand some of the pricing of cues and repairs. What I have seen from some fairly new cuemakers is all over the map. One new cuemaker quoted me over $200.00 for a refinish of a butt, no new wrap. I tried to explain that Proficient would do it for about half that to no avail. Recently I decided to have a new cue built and one of the most experienced cuemakers I know was way more reasonable than a new cuemaker I spoke with. Honestly I think some of the new cuemakers are just trying to get whatever they can. When I speak of new cuemakers I think of people with under ten years of experience.. I'm not bashing anyone but when I can buy from someone with a solidly established history of 20+ years as opposed to someone with 10 or less years and save money I know who I will go to every time.
Im planning on charging $125 for a simple sneaky with phenolic or juma joint collars, and $175-200+ for steel jointed sneakys with any fancier ringwork, hoppe ring, etc. I havent sold one yet though, i havent done a good enough job on the 15 or so that ive already made. Im working on my second plain jane with some wicked coco and a nice figured curly handle that im hoping to sell for at least $250. Between coring it, tapering, ringwork, collars, pin, buttcap, clearcoat, and everything else, i figure at $250 im still working for far less than minimum wage. I know as i get more experience, and learn more, i will get quicker and better, but for now, i just go really slow and methodical. Hopefully, i will be up to $5 an hour soon, lol.
Joe
Joe
I have tried very hard to understand some of the pricing of cues and repairs. QUOTE]
I think it is a pretty simple formula. I charge $60/hr for my labor and add the cost of materials. Based on experience, I can guage how long a repair is going to take and what materials will be used. Now, sometimes I run into issues and it takes longer but, on balance, I win more than I lose.
@quesports, I don't think $200 is out of line for a refinish as long as the quality of work validates it. Straight up, that may be the rate he needs to charge to make a profit, due to his time and materials. Its good that you shopped around and can find someone you trust with the work at a price you can live with. (even though you didn't check with me...)
It's interesting to see the conversation be so familiar and similar to those I have seen in medicine. One of the difficulties in medicine of course is that a great part of it is out of our control, it is dictated by insurance companies or government entities. That matter is in fact one of the contributing factors in my decision to leave clinical medicine. It is only getting worse and for the past couple of decades physician incomes have been steadily declining. For many primary care physicians it is difficult to make a living.
When I was in training a surgeon I was assisting asked me if I knew how much the surgery we were doing cost. Now, in medicine we get zero education in such matters. Nada, zilch. So I said no, of course.
He said he was being paid $450. I thought that was great because the procedure took about 45 minutes. Then he told me the previous year the same procedure would have paid $1200. The payment was dictated by the health insurance company. That sucked, but still....for 45 minutes work, $450 was pretty good. Then he told me that when calculating his operational overhead....that 45 minutes was costing him $550....so that was a $100 loss. He had an office with nurses, a secretary, and office manager...professional expenses including malpractice insurance and professional association fees.....rent .....utilities.....health insurance for himself and his employees......payments on his equipment......etc....
This guy was no new-comer getting established. He was (and is) a well established surgeon with excellent qualifications and a leader in his field.
I asked him why he would do it at a loss. He said "I am a surgeon, she needs the operation, somebody has to do it."
That was my introductory lesson into the economics of medical practice, and I was training to be a surgeon, I thought I had it made.
The tools required for my profession, in other words the minimum start up cost (my education) cost me about a quarter of a million dollars. I have not even begun to pay that back and I am 45 years old. The real cost of my education was absorbed by hospitals, universities, and the government and is estimated to have been a minimum of 1.2 million dollars.
It now costs $75.00 an hour for a consultation with me. But I work for a company. What I get of that fee is so embarrassing low I won't even say it. There are promises of a future, of partnership, of many things....but for the moment that is all a matter of trust and faith.
There was another thread on this matter that I read with great interest. There were cue makers who said they would not lift a finger for less than $100 and hour. There were very thoughtful and detailed analysis of time and calculations of work, etc. It was an excellent read.
The matter at hand is difficult and more complex than many would suspect at first. It is very nice to see frank and open discussion of the matter as customers and potential customers. I for one appreciate it greatly, and I think I understand.
Be thankful that no government agency or greedy insurance company is dictating these matters to you.
People look for different things in a cue. They consider different factors. Price is one of them. It is not, by any means, the only thing. In the end it is about perceived value with all factors considered.
Repairs are a similar matter I guess, with price probably factoring in a little heavier.
I am betting that most cue makers when starting out just want to make some cues. Maybe they just want to work on some of their own stuff. They have no grand aspirations. Maybe in the back of their mind they entertain the notion that they too could be one of the greats someday. But in general, they just want to do it because it is fun, it is interesting, they like it, and it allows them to express themselves through an art/trade.
Thank you all so much for the frank and open discussion of this matter.
:thumbup:
When I was in training a surgeon I was assisting asked me if I knew how much the surgery we were doing cost. Now, in medicine we get zero education in such matters. Nada, zilch. So I said no, of course.
He said he was being paid $450. I thought that was great because the procedure took about 45 minutes. Then he told me the previous year the same procedure would have paid $1200. The payment was dictated by the health insurance company. That sucked, but still....for 45 minutes work, $450 was pretty good. Then he told me that when calculating his operational overhead....that 45 minutes was costing him $550....so that was a $100 loss. He had an office with nurses, a secretary, and office manager...professional expenses including malpractice insurance and professional association fees.....rent .....utilities.....health insurance for himself and his employees......payments on his equipment......etc....
This guy was no new-comer getting established. He was (and is) a well established surgeon with excellent qualifications and a leader in his field.
I asked him why he would do it at a loss. He said "I am a surgeon, she needs the operation, somebody has to do it."
That was my introductory lesson into the economics of medical practice, and I was training to be a surgeon, I thought I had it made.
The tools required for my profession, in other words the minimum start up cost (my education) cost me about a quarter of a million dollars. I have not even begun to pay that back and I am 45 years old. The real cost of my education was absorbed by hospitals, universities, and the government and is estimated to have been a minimum of 1.2 million dollars.
It now costs $75.00 an hour for a consultation with me. But I work for a company. What I get of that fee is so embarrassing low I won't even say it. There are promises of a future, of partnership, of many things....but for the moment that is all a matter of trust and faith.
There was another thread on this matter that I read with great interest. There were cue makers who said they would not lift a finger for less than $100 and hour. There were very thoughtful and detailed analysis of time and calculations of work, etc. It was an excellent read.
The matter at hand is difficult and more complex than many would suspect at first. It is very nice to see frank and open discussion of the matter as customers and potential customers. I for one appreciate it greatly, and I think I understand.
Be thankful that no government agency or greedy insurance company is dictating these matters to you.
People look for different things in a cue. They consider different factors. Price is one of them. It is not, by any means, the only thing. In the end it is about perceived value with all factors considered.
Repairs are a similar matter I guess, with price probably factoring in a little heavier.
I am betting that most cue makers when starting out just want to make some cues. Maybe they just want to work on some of their own stuff. They have no grand aspirations. Maybe in the back of their mind they entertain the notion that they too could be one of the greats someday. But in general, they just want to do it because it is fun, it is interesting, they like it, and it allows them to express themselves through an art/trade.
Thank you all so much for the frank and open discussion of this matter.
:thumbup:
Not knocking anyone, but $60/hr? That's pretty amazing for a non union job that does not need college degree. The beauty of America is the ability to succeed if you try. My father retired from teaching elementary school children for 20 years and didn't make that. Im pretty sure a lathe is more desirable, to most, than 30 kids for 8 hours a day attempting to impart knowledge and respect, generally without the proper support system, ie parents and community. Hats off to those for their success.
Well stated. To the point.