Cue Tip Contact Myth-Busting Truths in Super Slow Motion

[ShootingArts]

I wonder if there's some sort of friction limit of a smooth pool ball, after all, it is the interaction between the two surfaces? You need to find an old ball and rough it up with some sand paper and try and cue it beyond the traditional miscue limit (obviously making sure it is free of particles from the sanding) ...

Might be a little easier on the cue ball to put a little rosin on it.

Hu

 

[dr_dave]

It is also possible that the particles in the chalk that embed into the tip and CB surfaces during impact (effectively locking the two surfaces together) cannot embed or stay embedded in the surfaces when the angle of the surfaces is greater than the angle at the miscue limit.

I wonder if there's some sort of friction limit of a smooth pool ball, after all, it is the interaction between the two surfaces? You need to find an old ball and rough it up with some sand paper and try and cue it beyond the traditional miscue limit (obviously making sure it is free of particles from the sanding) ...

It is the particles in the chalk, and not the condition of the tip or CB surfaces, that allow the tip to grab the CB. For example, any tip with no chalk will grab the ball poorly and miscue even at small tip offsets. However, all tip types (hard, soft, phenolic) in various conditions (assuming they hold chalk) will grab the ball up to the standard miscue limit, allowing all of them to apply the same amount of spin.

 

[dr_dave]

There are new coatings that can be used on billiard balls or table cloth to produce a variety of effects. Silicon spray is the most widely known one.

For those interested in the effects of different cleaners, polishes, and surface conditions on throw, see the videos and article links under "What effects do different ball cleaners and polishers have on the reaction of the balls?" here:

Ball Cleaning and Surface Treatment Effects
​

And to see what Silicone Spray can let you to do at a pool table, see:

Silicone Spray Effects​

 

[justnum]

For those interested in the effects of different cleaners, polishes, and surface conditions on throw, see the videos and article links under "What effects do different ball cleaners and polishers have on the reaction of the balls?" here:

Ball Cleaning and Surface Treatment Effects
​

And to see what Silicone Spray can let you to do at a pool table, see:

Silicone Spray Effects​

Silicone spray effects is dead link.

Edit Its fixed.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Silicone spray effects is dead link.

Silicone Spray Effects - Dr. Dave Pool Info

Answers to frequently-asked questions about the effects of Silicone spray on pool balls.

billiards.colostate.edu

 

[dr_dave]

Silicone spray effects is dead link.

Thanks for letting me know. I fixed it.

 

[DynoDan]

Yes. If you are interested, the answers for why this is true can be found here:

tip hardness effects​

Clear as mud. So, the answer to my inquiry seems to be: ‘most probably‘.
Every myth appears to have some (though often remote) foundation in fact. If indeed the general impression has always been that a softer tip imparts more spin, but the evidence does not support, the explanation then appears quite complex (but interesting nonetheless).

 

[dr_dave]

Yes. If you are interested, the answers for why this is true can be found here:

tip hardness effects​

Clear as mud. So, the answer to my inquiry seems to be: ‘most probably‘.
Every myth appears to have some (though often remote) foundation in fact. If indeed the general impression has always been that a softer tip imparts more spin, but the evidence does not support, the explanation then appears quite complex (but interesting nonetheless).

Complicated things are rarely simple, but the myth is definitely a myth. If anything, properly-chalked hard playing-tips can impart slightly more spin than soft tips, per the info on the resource page.

 

[lfigueroa]

So there was testing done at lag and four rail speed — what about cross table length speed?

I was just thinking about all the little spin safety shots played at 1pocket where you’re just thinning an OB and spinning the CB off a rail to hide it.

Is a harder tip still preferred for more spin?

Lou Figueroa

 

[pvc lou]

Simple things are usually made to seem complex by someone who's trying to bullshit you, too.

 

[DynoDan]

Complicated things are rarely simple, but the myth is definitely a myth. If anything, properly-chalked hard playing-tips can impart slightly more spin than soft tips, per the info on the resource page.

I think the key word here is: ‘properly chalked’, which appears to be a fairly complex issue all by itself. Likely as good an explanation as any for the myth’s origin.

 

[dr_dave]

So there was testing done at lag and four rail speed — what about cross table length speed?

I was just thinking about all the little spin safety shots played at 1pocket where you’re just thinning an OB and spinning the CB off a rail to hide it.

Is a harder tip still preferred for more spin?

The amount a chalked hard tip is better at imparting spin is too small to make a big deal about, but I think the reasons on the resource page apply to shots of all speed. Although, slow-speed finesse shots do require a more-delicate stroke with a hard tip.

 

[lfigueroa]

The amount a chalked hard tip is better at imparting spin is too small to make a big deal about, but I think the reasons on the resource page apply to shots of all speed. Although, slow-speed finesse shots do require a more-delicate stroke with a hard tip.

What do you mean by a more delicate stroke?

My instinct as a pool player tells me I’m better off with a soft tip for the type of shots I’m asking about. Often, on safety shots at the beginning of the game, the CB is only traveling a couple of feet and precise spin and speed is paramount for a successful outcome. Factor in new Simonis and new Aramiths and I’m just not sure how, in that kind of a situation where you need a goodly amount of spin at a slow speed, you’re better off with a hard tip.

Lou Figueroa

 

[pvc lou]

What do you mean by a more delicate stroke?

My instinct as a pool player tells me I’m better off with a soft tip for the type of shots I’m asking about. Often, on safety shots at the beginning of the game, the CB is only traveling a couple of feet and precise spin and speed is paramount for a successful outcome. Factor in new Simonis and new Aramiths and I’m just not sure how, in that kind of a situation where you need a goodly amount of spin at a slow speed, you’re better off with a hard tip.

Lou Figueroa

It means soft tip and hard tip don't give the same spin. Simple.

 

[Fatboy]

It means soft tip and hard tip don't give the same spin. Simple.

Sounds right to me. Different hardness, different spin. Simple.

 

[dr_dave]

What do you mean by a more delicate stroke?

... slower cue speed for a given desired CB speed (since a hard tip has better hit efficiency than a soft tip).

My instinct as a pool player tells me I’m better off with a soft tip for the type of shots I’m asking about. Often, on safety shots at the beginning of the game, the CB is only traveling a couple of feet and precise spin and speed is paramount for a successful outcome. Factor in new Simonis and new Aramiths and I’m just not sure how, in that kind of a situation where you need a goodly amount of spin at a slow speed, you’re better off with a hard tip.

That is what many people seem to think, but many people (me included, and many pros) do prefer harder tips for all shots for all the reasons on the cue tip hardness resource page.

 

[DynoDan]

The amount a chalked hard tip is better at imparting spin is too small to make a big deal about, but I think the reasons on the resource page apply to shots of all speed. Although, slow-speed finesse shots do require a more-delicate stroke with a hard tip.

Anecdote: (for what it’s worth): Back in the early 80s, when many cues came with a ‘LePro‘ installed, and most were still breaking 9 ball with their playing cue (which then required frequent trimming/reshaping), or a house cue (if available) and ‘Master’ chalk was the standard (BTW), a fellow player was reminiscing to me about the ‘good old days’ when ‘water buffalo‘ tips were available. He claimed they allowed that way more english could be applied. I remember he favored a blue/chrome-tanned tip at the time. He also had a very delicate stroke. Go figure.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... soft tip and hard tip don't give the same spin.

Different hardness, different spin.

You're thinking of RPMs - that changes (along with CB speed) with tip hardness and/or stroke speed.

The important thing in pool is spin-to-speed ratio - more spin with the same amount of speed = more spin effect (sharper angle change off the rail). You only change spin-to-speed ratio by hitting a different place on the CB.

pj <- where have I heard this before?
chgo

 

[jollyrodger]

So the tip hardness does effect the spin ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[pvc lou]

You're thinking of RPMs - that changes (proportionally with CB speed) with tip hardness and/or stroke speed.

The important thing in pool is spin-to-speed ratio - more spin with the same amount of speed = more spin effect (sharper angle change off the rail). You only change spin-to-speed ratio by hitting a different place on the CB.

pj <- where have I heard this before?
chgo

I'll repeat to you the same observation made by others in this thread: If you hit the same spot on the CB, you will not get the same spin/speed ratio with a hard break tip as with a soft tip...especially at low speed.

Try playing a soft massé in straight rail with a hard break tip, for example. I don't care how delicate your stroke is, not even Frédéric Caudron can execute that with a hard break tip.