Ok. So far so good except golf stick tips are metal or wood, so that confines the cush zone. Plus it's a club not a cue. The hit is orbital not linear. With a pool stick, it's possible to mash the cue ball. Not so in golf. IOW death grip vs text book cue delivery should factor in. IDK...
Cue Tip Contact Myth-Busting Truths in Super Slow Motion
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
You're still talking about a TINY amount of time. Not anywhere near long enough to make a noticeable difference in spin. The ball leaves the tip in lees than an eye blink. There MIGHT be a revolution or two more english but nothing that a player is going to notice. Feel is something different from actual spin gains.
I've seen CD play quite a bit. He can get WAY out from center without miscuing. Most humans don't strike it as pure as Corey does. He can also use old school 'tuck-n-roll' aka BHE to spin his ball too. What he does has nothing to do with the tip.
I don't buy this argument for the following reason: It takes only a TINY amount of time to put spin on the ball in the first place. So if you double that amount of time, TINY as it may be, it seems plausible to me that the amount of spin on the ball can change significantly.
I think the evidence presented by Doctor Dave is, to be charitable, unconvincing. He might be right. I'm not yet sure. I'll offer two thoughts that I hope will help decide the extent to which contact time/tip hardness plays a role in generating spin on the cb:
1) The eminent Doctor can measure the contact times for 2 extreme cases:
a) A thick rubber tip that imparts WAY MORE spin than a normal leather tip.
b) A hard plastic tip coated with a VERY thin layer of the same rubber used in a), to control for surface roughness.
This test might give a first order evaluation of the correlation between tip-hardness, contact time, and imparted spin. I suspect that these are not the only relevant features that would constitute a complete model. (Tip roughness is another ingredient, but we all know that.)
2) Alex Pagulayan appears to disagree with the Doctor's claims in the following video, where he explains that for one-pocket he uses a cue with a soft tip to achieve better spin at slow speeds.
What AP feels/senses doesn't change physics. Believe what you want brother. I've been playing over 40yrs and have tried a BUNCH of tips. Yes some had a softer/harder hit but i've never noticed ANY difference in spin while ACTUALLY playing pool. Not some hi-speed photo test but playing the game. You're way over-thinking/analyzing this. It MIGHT be possible that a certain tip gives a tiny bit more turn to the cb but the contact time is so miniscule you'll never notice it in playing the game. I guess these old wives tales are a bitch to kill.
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On the one hand, AP doesn't change physics, and on the other you dismiss hi-speed photo measurements and my over-thinking/analysis as old wives tales. Ok boss.
What is your problem bud?? Obsess much?? If you(or anyone else AP included) believe that soft tips spin it more that's just great. People WAY smarter than you or me know otherwise. One last time in case you missed it: In PLAYING POOL you will not notice a difference in spin between soft/hard tips. You related to Eberle by any chance??
What is your problem bud?? Obsess much?? If you(or anyone else AP included) believe that soft tips spin it more that's just great. People WAY smarter than you or me know otherwise. One last time in case you missed it: In PLAYING POOL you will not notice a difference in spin between soft/hard tips. You related to Eberle by any chance??
My problem? Ain't no problems with me, bro. Why are you getting so wound up? Why the personal remarks?
Are you asking me if I'm a flat-earther with the Eberle question?
Tip contact times: https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/contact-time/ The times involved are BEYOND tiny. Cueball is long gone before any spin difference could occur. All the soft-tip guys i'm sure will ignore this and keep swillin' the kool-aid. Done here. I have actual, REAL pool to play. BTW, i will be using a Ultraskin Black medium 'spins it the same as all others' tip.
Rabbit-hole of the day: https://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html A fancy way of describing old-wives tales. Just substitute 'soft tips give more spin' in relevant places.
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Reminds me of this. Post #18: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/different-joint-and-differences.251567/#post-3286694 SEVENTY% could not identify the cue by the joint. Just another OWT(old wives tale) blown out of the water. BTW, to appease all the 'wokes' in our midst i apologize to all the old wives and their tales.
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
yes but what he showed my mere mortal buddy worked for him too. It def SEEMS like they are getting more spin at a given speed. I was just wondering what the reason might be since the ones he mentioned are pretty much all busted myths lol. I agree with you on not basing something on just what CD can do as that guy is one of the most gifted players I've ever seen. Seems to have a hundred different strokes whenever he wants. Supreme talent and uber creative in how he sees the game as well. But when he gives my buddy a tip and he starts juicing the ball around better than ever before, it really makes me wonder WHY. For a while I thought I knew why...but apparently either CD didn't share the truth or he believed the myths as well. OR, the myths have some truth to them as a 50% increase in contact time and incoming acceleration just make sense that they would have an effect. Perhaps why the myth persists despite empirical data lol.
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Thanks that about covers it.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
This is a valid point. All the spin gets applied in a split second, so why discount a 40 or 50% increase in that contact time?
Corey Deuel also seems to disagree given the explanation he gave for the technique he showed my friend. Granted that was well over 10 years ago so his thinking on this may have evolved since.
I’m not any kind of a science guy but here’s what I know from playing pool for over 50 years and getting to the level of being able to run 100 balls:
Tip hardness matters. I have a drawer with probably more than 20 different kinds of tips laying around in it. Most of the popular ones like Kamui, G2, Sniper, milk duds, some from Taiwan, and so on are represented.
And what I know is that when I play with a softer tip I have more confidence in hitting the CB further from center and getting whatever amount of spin I want. The harder tips make me *feel* like I need to stay closer to center to avoid miscueing and that I’m going to get less spin.
I also prefer the harmonics of a soft tip. I don’t know if I’m using that term properly but what I mean is that I like the sound and the vibration that comes down the cue with a soft tip. I like the “feel” of it whatever that means.
So *for me* the science is interesting and all but I have long come to believe two things when it comes to pool:
1. Every player will have their own personal “science” when it comes to what works and what does not for their pool game. IOWs, what works for me may not (probably won’t) work for you.
2. Pool is as much art as it is science and the stroking technique and the cue of one player may (probably does) enable them to do things on the pool table that others cannot.
I always enjoy what the science guys have to say. But at the end of the day you gotta go with what works for *you* whether it be a softer tip, a Meucci, or a CF shaft and the science be damned.
Lou Figueroa
Tip hardness matters. I have a drawer with probably more than 20 different kinds of tips laying around in it. Most of the popular ones like Kamui, G2, Sniper, milk duds, some from Taiwan, and so on are represented.
And what I know is that when I play with a softer tip I have more confidence in hitting the CB further from center and getting whatever amount of spin I want. The harder tips make me *feel* like I need to stay closer to center to avoid miscueing and that I’m going to get less spin.
I also prefer the harmonics of a soft tip. I don’t know if I’m using that term properly but what I mean is that I like the sound and the vibration that comes down the cue with a soft tip. I like the “feel” of it whatever that means.
So *for me* the science is interesting and all but I have long come to believe two things when it comes to pool:
1. Every player will have their own personal “science” when it comes to what works and what does not for their pool game. IOWs, what works for me may not (probably won’t) work for you.
2. Pool is as much art as it is science and the stroking technique and the cue of one player may (probably does) enable them to do things on the pool table that others cannot.
I always enjoy what the science guys have to say. But at the end of the day you gotta go with what works for *you* whether it be a softer tip, a Meucci, or a CF shaft and the science be damned.
Lou Figueroa
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The Big Bang happened in a much, MUCH smaller amount of time. Do you believe that because the Big Bang happened in such a short time, nothing consequential happened?
I don't think the big bang happened.
Good for you, Max.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
I'm in the same camp as you regarding feel of softies and the confidence that comes along with a familiar preferred feel. However, science is not personal. There are actual truths that can be deduced through experimentation. That said, it doesn't mean the 'myth' can't be useful to your game.
Take this golf example: Slow motion cameras showed that the 'flight laws' of the past were just wrong. We now know most of the initial direction of the ball is determined by the clubface and the spin is determined by the clubs path relative to that clubface orientation. However, there are still PGA tour winners today that use the methodology for shaping shots based on the old 'flight laws' which were proven wrong. They still swing where they want it to start and face the clubface where they want it to finish up. This is how they organize the movement in their minds and it works for them to a world class level. However, what they set up for and are feeling happens doesn't actually happen on slow mo cameras (which is obv bc as someone mentioned before, your feels don't change physics).
It is perfectly fine to organize your game around your own personal 'truths' based on feels and perceptions. It can even work to a level like Colin Morikawa in golf or Alex Pagulayan in pool, but that doesn't change the fact that the physics are THE physics and don't change from player to player.
So ye, even in a case like golf where we know with 100% certainty what the physics are, people still ignore that info in how they approach certain shots, knowingly using a technique based on a false premise. But that has worked for many in the past and continues to work for the players employing those methods today. In pool, we are still quite a ways from 100% confirmation so players playing according to their own truths and explaining their shots with myths isn't likely to go away any time soon.
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