Cue tip contact time

So "good timing" feels good and produces homeruns instead of foul balls.

But what specifically do we want from good timing that we don't get by simply hitting the CB on the right spot at the right angle and speed? Or is that all that good timing is?

Regarding the main claim in the video, I'm skeptical that "good timing" can increase tip/ball contact time - or that it would necessarily be a good thing to achieve.

I don't think we do developing players a service by telling them they need to develop a skill that we can't describe.

pj
chgo

you're right it's not exactly useful to tell a novice about incorporating something like this into their game and I don't think this is really that important either (until it needs to be addressed)

at the risk of going off topic t sometimes i find the idea that feeling as though your tip stays longer on the ball can be useful to some novices who can't grasp the mechanics of, say a draw shot because they want to pull the cue back quickly, and other tricks like imagining the ball is further than it is etc can't work because they're still afraid of double hitting the ball.

sometimes telling them that they have to keep the ball on the tip for longer than they think it appropriate may help them remove certain inhibitions, even though it may not be 100% technically correct...
 
Clearly when looking at the video evidence, I am seeing something that some of you are not. Snooker cues are typical at 9mm to 10mm tip diameter, and do have less endmass on the cue shaft. They are also mainly conical cues, so have a stiffer geometry over a regular pool cue. Traditional snooker cues are ash, with a fairly close grain many years ago. Now days , it seems they like the lower GPI Ash for the shafts.
They also like the Elkmaster or similar tips a lot as well. But the slow mo video at 35k F/S is the real stuff of interest to me. Lots to be learnt from that video alone.

Ok so tell us what you’re seeing in the video.
 
If you actually throw the cue at the cue ball, it is not being accelerated when it hits the cue ball. It will actually be slowing down slightly due to rubbing on the bridge hand.

I see what you mean. I mistakenly thought that it would be faster the moment the user 'throws' it and now I think about it didn't make any sense at all...

...A simple set of mechanics is all that is needed and I think it is easy to argue that a simple set is better than a complicated set.

ah... but could you imagine how quiet a thread like this would be then... :grin:
 
Thanks Bob. Definitely appreciate your responses.
I chose the word fundamental because this is being demonstrated to explain a possible "better way" to make contact with the cue ball.
Some may take this as church and try to accomplish a concept
they might not fully understand.
People like yourself (qualified instructor) have a better way of explaining concepts with patience, and it's a huge benefit to all.
 
you're right it's not exactly useful to tell a novice about incorporating something like this into their game and I don't think this is really that important either (until it needs to be addressed)

at the risk of going off topic t sometimes i find the idea that feeling as though your tip stays longer on the ball can be useful to some novices who can't grasp the mechanics of, say a draw shot because they want to pull the cue back quickly, and other tricks like imagining the ball is further than it is etc can't work because they're still afraid of double hitting the ball.

sometimes telling them that they have to keep the ball on the tip for longer than they think it appropriate may help them remove certain inhibitions, even though it may not be 100% technically correct...
Yes. The advice to "accelerate through" the CB isn't practically possible, but it can be a very helpful visualization that helps to avoid decelerating the stroke before hitting the CB.

Lots of helpful pool advice (particularly about aiming) is more about how we see things than how they actually are.

pj
chgo
 
Do you play any other games/sports? The pool stroke, golf swing, throwing a dart, shooting baskets are all a chain of events that to be accurate/efficient must take place in correct order/time. I'll agree its kinda hard to quantify/explain but its obvious when you do or don't time it right. I guess "sequencing" might be a better term but its the same thing.

This is absolutely correct and it is the basis of consistent great athletic achievement. "timing" is simply the ability to deliver completely relaxed execution while staying focused on the object at hand- whether that be a pitched baseball, a basketball hoop, a golf ball, a tennis ball, the chin of a fighter, or, in this case, the object billiard ball.

Consistently great timing is usually brought on by a process that is individually and uniquely developed both inherently/and/or by trial and error- until the athlete finds what works best and is able to incorporate that most consistently. For example, you may see a pro player take only two warm up strokes prior to EVERY shot and also draw the cue back the same distance on EVERY shot- he has put in place a certain "process" that helps deliver the cue where he wants and how he wants most consistently- rhythm is what helps to keep that timing in place on a consistent basis. Sometime you see pool players seem to be tapping one finger under their bridge hand prior to their final stroke- that is their timing mechanism at work.
 
Some good players use the "still accelerating" method so it must have some advantage. It may help to keep a straighter stroke. Another is that if you limit your backswing, you need to accelerate through the ball to have the needed speed. I think Dr. Dave has some analysis on this but I couldn't find it.
Here it is:

stroke acceleration resource page

Regards,
Dave
 
I think Jacksonville's superslomo videos showed that contact time can increase 100% from hitting centerball to maximum spin, so this 20% increase is well within the margin of stroke error.
I don't remember that result from the Jacksonville Project. Bob, if you are listening, could you please verify this. I did not see mention of this in any of the articles on the Jacksonville Project resource page. I only tested center-ball hits when I did my cue tip contact time studies.

Thanks,
Dave
 
The pic below illustrates this - a better player with a tighter "shot group" for tip/ball contacts (pic on the right) can aim closer to the miscue limit (red dot) and still only miscue an acceptable percentage of tries. We think we always aim near the miscue limit for maximum spin, but our brains know better and subconsciously force our stroke up a little to accommodate our personal shot grouping.

View attachment 34895
Nice drawing.
Agreed! FYI, I added it to the maximum spin resource page.

PJ, it is good to have you back from your latest AZB "vacation."


I think Mike Page has a video on Youtube about exactly this.
If you have a link, please share it so I can add it to the resource page.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Put me down also for not quite understanding the point of the video. Maybe it is a series of videos? I only watched the one linked.

I agree with PJ. Stark is saying two things:
1. He is defining timing as the contact time of tip/cue ball
2. He is claiming a better hit results in longer timing.

For #1, I disagree this is the meaning of timing. I've never heard anyone in all the years of AZ threads use the word timing as this definition. Maybe in the snooker world they do? For me, timing is maybe the opposite of "jerkiness". So a player with a fluid backstroke and fluid forward stroke, who hits the CB at the bottom of the pendulum (or piston stroke equivalent) would have good timing and a smooth delivery. In contrast, someone like Hopkins who pulls the stick back 2 inches and lunges through the CB, would have poor timing, and the stroke looks jerky. Obviously both methods work, as Hopkins' record speak for itself.

(From my memory which may be wrong): In Capelles 9 ball analysis book and video of Efren vs Archer from the Sands Regency Open, he said he measured the lengths and/or time of Efrens/Archers strokes for the shots, and then averaged them up. He found Efren had a longer back stroke, where he used more time to accelerate to the final speed before striking the CB. Archer had a shorter backstroke, and accelerated to the final speed quicker. You could say with this data that Efren has a smoother and more "relaxed" or "fluid" or better "timing" stroke.

For #2, I disagree the length of contact time has any bearing whatsoever on the shot outcome. Consider this: for the snooker pro in the video, every time he "felt" that the shot was hit poorly, and gave it a poor rating for later analysis.... Every single one of those "poor hits" is the absolute 100% perfect hit for "some other shot".
 
I think that if you change your timing, such as stopping the stroke early, it can change where the tip hits the ball, so that repeatability of timing can affect cueing (tip placement) accuracy.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Also (maybe more stance/grip/bridge related), if your grip is "ahead of" or "behind" its optimum point when you hit the CB, it can cause your tip to be higher or lower than wanted at contact.

pj
chgo

That still sounds more like what should be called cueing accuracy than timing to me, but now I understand what you’re saying about how they could be related.
 
That still sounds more like what should be called cueing accuracy than timing to me, but now I understand what you’re saying about how they could be related.
One aspect of timing comes up if the player has the cue in a relaxed position down on their finger tips during the first part of the forward stroke and then closes the hand and brings the cue stick up into the palm of the hand at the end of the forward stroke. (This closing is needed because otherwise the stick can leave the grip hand and fly down the table causing the spectators to cry out in fear and perhaps rip the cloth. Parse that as you wish.:wink:) The timing of closing the hand will partly determine how high on the cue ball the tip hits.

I think the grip hand should not change shape much during the shot.
 
If you actually throw the cue at the cue ball, it is not being accelerated when it hits the cue ball. It will actually be slowing down slightly due to rubbing on the bridge hand.
Seems like releasing the cue (relaxing the grip) at the right time can help ensure that it remains at a constant speed for a little distance before contact, giving a little wider margin of speed accuracy. It's high on my tinkering list.

The path of the cue ball is determined only by the speed, tip placement, direction and elevation of the cue stick at the instant of impact.
There really should be a snappy, unforgettable acronym for this important pool axiom. I floated Angle/Spot/Speed once or twice, but for some reason ASS didn't catch on.

pj
chgo
 
"I think the grip hand should not change shape much during the shot."

Bob, i usually take everything you say as an article of faith, but this one may have more than one correct answer. look at the way the grip functions on Any snooker player; the top ones all, without exception, open the grip on the backstroke, and close it on the forward stroke. there's a great youtube video of Ronnie & Jimmy White doing an exhibition match in asia, which shows both of them numerous times from the back, and it's quite clear. Ronnie has also been quoted on this being the primary feeling he has of his stroke.

pool players who come from snooker backgrounds -- Chris Melling comes to mind as an extreme example -- do this as well.

that said, working from first principles, i agree that simpler is better. however, i've come to realize that the snooker approach to this gets maximum energy And accuracy through this mechanism by transferring as much of the power of the stroke as possible to the smallest, and most dextrous, muscles available.
 
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