Cue Tips with CJ WILEY - Drawing the Ball

[BilliardsAbout]

uh...are you serious? Many people do, including myself. You do realize that it simply means not dropping your elbow, don't you??

Hi, Neil:

CJ is again correct.

There is no such thing as a pure pendulum stroke in pool. For one thing, a pendulum stops at each end of its arc only and swings through the bottom. A cue stick hits the cue ball at or near the bottom if its arc.

There's a lot more to be shared at: The Pit Of The Pool Pendulum - which can help you hit pool balls better...

 

[Neil]

Hi, Neil:

CJ is again correct.

There is no such thing as a pure pendulum stroke in pool. For one thing, a pendulum stops at each end of its arc only and swings through the bottom. A cue stick hits the cue ball at or near the bottom if its arc.

There's a lot more to be shared at: The Pit Of The Pool Pendulum - which can help you hit pool balls better...

All I can say to that, is WOW! You have a lot to learn. Especially about the pendulum stroke. Your article is so full of holes that it's not even worth shooting through them! Just one example- because you guys think the way you do, is exactly why you can't reliably hit the cb where you want to, such as hitting center ball, and have to come up with other ways to compensate for it. Think about that for a while. Also, while you are at it, re-read your own article, and take the same argument you have against the pendulum stroke, and substitute "elbow dropping" for "pendulum stroke", and you will be much more accurate than you are. Seriously, think about it.

 

[bbb]

im not an instructor
but here is my 1 1/2 cents worth
extending the follow thru may be a way to be sure you are accelarting thru contact
people who poke and snap back have to be deaccelerating on contact since they are getting ready to stop and go backwards
jmho
icbw
what do you think??
late edit 9/18/2012
people who poke and snap back MAY HAVE A TENDENCY to be deaccelerating on contact since they are getting ready to stop and go backwards

neil what do you think??

 

[Bob Jewett]

... There is no such thing as a pure pendulum stroke in pool. ...

You can define it any way you want, but the way I define it is a stroke in which the upper arm does not move at least until the tip hits the ball. By my definition lots of players have something very, very close to a pure pendulum for many of their shots. Usually there is a small drop of the upper arm at the end of power shots for players who keep their upper arms still on softer shots. That drop occurs after the ball is gone, typically.

The last time I looked, Tony Robles was the best among top players for keeping his upper arm still even during power shots.

 

[Neil]

neil what do you think??

First, you don't need to be "accelerating" at contact. That term is often mistakenly used. You do NOT want to be slowing down at contact. If you are, you will not get the action you were looking for. Yes, you do not want to be jerking your cue back right after contact, because, as you stated, you will most likely be slowing down and have a jerky stroke going to the cb. Thereby, not hitting it at the intended speed or intended location.

However, that has nothing to do with having a pendulum stroke. A true pendulum stroke accelerates on the way to the cb, then strikes the cb at zero acceleration. (the bottom of the pendulum) That helps control the speed of the shot easier than trying to accelerate all the way there and hope you hit it at the speed you wanted to. After the exact bottom, in a pendulum stroke, the cue then accelerates again, and continues on to the finish of the stroke. In a good pendulum stroke, there is no "pulling the cue back".

Yes, I agree that extending the follow through will help some people get more draw. The reason for that, is because they have a flaw in their stroke to start with, and the extended follow through helps counter that flaw. Because of that flaw, they are not hitting the cb where they want to, and they found a "cure" for it by adding something else to counter it. Much like taking a pill to counter the side effects of another pill you are taking. It doesn't solve the real problem, just takes care of the side effects of the real problem and makes you feel better.

Technically, you only need about 1/8" of follow through to do whatever you want to with the cb. After that 1/8", the cb in gone, and nothing you do after that affects it. So, technically, follow through isn't even necessary for proper action on the cb.

The only reason we follow through, or finish the stroke, at all, is to prevent us from slowing down on the address to the cb in the stroke and to make the stroke as smooth as possible.

A pendulum stroke will put just as much action on a cb as any other stroke will. The cb doesn't know the difference. It only knows at what speed, and where it was hit. That is the key to controlling the cb. Hitting it at a consistent speed, and hitting it accurately.

Personally, after years of shooting with elbow drop, and now shooting with a pendulum stroke, the pendulum stroke is much more accurate for hitting the cb. There is very little to go wrong with it. Dropping the elbow, while it does work just fine for some, has many things that can go wrong with it. And, you will find that many that use it come up with other things they add to their game to compensate for errors in their stroke that they don't even realize they have. If they can get it "all in one sock" consistently, they will play great. If they are missing a part at any time, well, they now have a problem that they really don't know how to address correctly to fix it. So, they may go in a slump for a while.

edit: Here's another thing- almost everyone thinks that Allen Hopkins has a "poke stroke". They make fun of his stroke because it is not the "norm". Well, in my opinion, Allen actually has the best stroke out there. I say the best, because to me the best has to consistently hit the target exactly where they want to, and at the speed they want to. Allen does that. And, he does that by eliminating all the extraneous garbage in the stroke that just plain isn't necessary. He was revolutionary in his stroke, and it payed great dividends for him. It make look "weird", but actually is extremely accurate and repeatable. I get a chuckle out of everytime that someone says that to cinch a shot, really shorten the backswing for accuracy. I get a chuckle because that is so true, but they fail to realize that the same holds true for every shot. Since it is so accurate, why not do it all the time?? Allen did, and look where it got him. Very, very few people have the accuracy to pull back the cue all the way, and then bring it forward and hit the cb right where they intended to. With a very short backswing, you can accurately get 1 1/2 millimeters (or half a tip) of english. When you can accurately do that, whole new worlds of accurate position play are opened up to you. When you don't do that, you have to essentially play constantly for your subconscious to be able to "get a feel" for the game, or your game falls apart.

 

[FranCrimi]

You can define it any way you want, but the way I define it is a stroke in which the upper arm does not move at least until the tip hits the ball. By my definition lots of players have something very, very close to a pure pendulum for many of their shots. Usually there is a small drop of the upper arm at the end of power shots for players who keep their upper arms still on softer shots. That drop occurs after the ball is gone, typically.

The last time I looked, Tony Robles was the best among top players for keeping his upper arm still even during power shots.

While this definition is logical, I see a potential problem with it. I think that definitions and rules should be stated so that the issue can be identified with the naked eye rather than by viewing a slow motion video. I believe in such cases, practicality is more important than perfection.

 

[Ratta]

You can define it any way you want, but the way I define it is a stroke in which the upper arm does not move at least until the tip hits the ball. By my definition lots of players have something very, very close to a pure pendulum for many of their shots. Usually there is a small drop of the upper arm at the end of power shots for players who keep their upper arms still on softer shots. That drop occurs after the ball is gone, typically.

The last time I looked, Tony Robles was the best among top players for keeping his upper arm still even during power shots.

Tony for sure has a brilliant technique! Agree here 100%.

 

[bbb]

neil
thanks you for your detailed explanation
i have a few comments to make
we seem to agree you dont want to slow down as you strike the cue ball for maximum draw and the extended follow thru may help that




you also mentioned at contact in a pendulum stroke there is zero acceleration while in the initial foward swing and after contact there is acceleration

my question do you mean zero acceleration because of the impact/resistance to movement from the stationary cue ball??
also are you implying that stroke speed continually increases (accelerates)during the 2 arcs of motion
??

 

[ENGLISH!]

I really haven't tried to mess with anyone's stroke in the way your suggesting. I have a couple of ways to train someone to strengthen what they do naturally - one is with a sword (that I show in my Ultimate Pool Secrets) and the other is with hand weights. The main thing I look for is how the cue is being delivered down the "Line of the Shot"....this is done differently in so many people because everyone's shoulder/arm/wrist works slightly in a different way of syncrinizing (I guess that's a good explination, in other words everyone does if differently or looks different doing it :smile There again, the cue must go straight down the line at least through the cue ball and then I've seem some "unique" things happen after that....Nick Varner is an example that comes to mind, but he's as consistent as anyone I've ever played....so find a type of stroke that works, feels good and make it become part of your hand.

Thanks for the reply. I started @ 13 & have been playing for 46 yrs. I have my stroke. I was simply looking for your valuable insights so that others might benefit. You've said it well enough. Different strokes for different folks, as long it goes thru the CB straight or at least starts it 'ON LINE'.

 

[ENGLISH!]

A little sensitive about the way you shoot?? Why all the "defense" about it?? Did anyone here say it was wrong?? Just so you know, it's not "wrong", it's just not necessary to have a good straight stroke. If you prefer to drop your elbow, and are straight and consistent with it, go for it. No problem.

I simply asked CJ a question about something he said, and wanted to learn a little more about what he knew about it. I guess I have my answer. Now, if CJ cares to discuss why he is wrong about needing an extended follow through for good draw, I will be happy to discuss it with him. If he doesn't want to, so be it.

It's all good. Sorry if I came across as 'defensive'. I was merely trying to point out that there is more than one way to deliver a straight cue to the CB.

If you watch the CJ / Miz match that Mr. Wiley posted, notice that he does not draw the ball with a full extended follow thru most of the time but when he needed 'something' more he did so. I believe he tried to answer your question by refering to it as a more simplistic method for a beginner or a novice. As I said, I use both, depending on the conditions, sometimes one works, seemingly better than the other.

Just this past Friday, we had a slight cool front pass thru S. La. I was overdrawing the ball on Simonis & when I tried to adjust I was coming up short. After the second game I switched shafts & had near perfect results. Now it may not have actually been the shaft change, I may have just tuned in my feel, or maybe the 2nd. shaft allowed me to do it faster than I would have with the 1st. shaft. Also, the shafts have different tips on them. The 1st an Everest 'Med' on an i2 & the 2nd. a Kamui Black Soft. on an OB Classic.

The point is we need to be open to whatever gets the job done & not be locked into ideals. We do not play in a sterile laboratory. Parameters change & we need to adapt one way or another.

I asked Mr. Wiley for alot more and I am happy with his reply even though I had hoped for a bit more techical info. However I understand that he may not want to get into the tecnical details if he is trying to get back to playing the best that he can. Over analysis can at tmes be paralyising. If it is not broken do not try to 'fix' it.

PS Yesteday, Tuesday I even changed chalk. Both are the same color Masters chalk but the first one simply was not grabbing enough. When I switched the feel & affect was immediate.

 

[Bob Jewett]

While this definition is logical, I see a potential problem with it. I think that definitions and rules should be stated so that the issue can be identified with the naked eye rather than by viewing a slow motion video. I believe in such cases, practicality is more important than perfection.

Any regular video camera is sufficient for this purpose. If you know what to look for I think it's pretty easy to recognize "post-contact upper arm relaxation," or P-CUAR, without a camera.

 

[ENGLISH!]

While this definition is logical, I see a potential problem with it. I think that definitions and rules should be stated so that the issue can be identified with the naked eye rather than by viewing a slow motion video. I believe in such cases, practicality is more important than perfection.

'praticality is more important than perfection' Far Out! Right On! One of the best phases I've read in these forums.

 

[FranCrimi]

Any regular video camera is sufficient for this purpose. If you know what to look for I think it's pretty easy to recognize "post-contact upper arm relaxation," or P-CUAR, without a camera.

In some cases, yes, I think it's obvious. However, in some it's not. Those are the ones I'm concerned about, which I think makes that definition impractical.

 

[FranCrimi]

'praticality is more important than perfection' Far Out! Right On! One of the best phases I've read in these forums.

Thanks! :smile:

 

[PGHteacher]

'praticality is more important than perfection' Far Out! Right On! One of the best phases I've read in these forums.

I will 2nd that and will be adopting it; good one Fran, really good one.

 

[Neil]

neil
thanks you for your detailed explanation
i have a few comments to make
we seem to agree you dont want to slow down as you strike the cue ball for maximum draw and the extended follow thru may help that




you also mentioned at contact in a pendulum stroke there is zero acceleration while in the initial foward swing and after contact there is acceleration

my question do you mean zero acceleration because of the impact/resistance to movement from the stationary cue ball??
also are you implying that stroke speed continually increases (accelerates)during the 2 arcs of motion
??

During a pendulum swing, the object starts to accelerate while moving forward. At the lowest part of the swing, acceleration is actually at zero. You still have forward movement, but not acceleration. It is now moving at a constant speed. After contact with the cb, the cue slows way down. (does this no matter what type of stroke you use), then the forward motion of the arm makes the cue start to accelerate again.

The big thing to remember, is that acceleration means the cue is constantly moving faster and faster. If the cue is moving forward at a set speed, there is no acceleration. The optimum goal would be to have the cue moving at a set forward speed with zero acceleration at contact. (which the pendulum happens to do). That way, you have better control over the speed the ball was actually hit at.

 

[CJ Wiley]

A couple of questions

A little sensitive about the way you shoot?? Why all the "defense" about it?? Did anyone here say it was wrong?? Just so you know, it's not "wrong", it's just not necessary to have a good straight stroke. If you prefer to drop your elbow, and are straight and consistent with it, go for it. No problem.

I simply asked CJ a question about something he said, and wanted to learn a little more about what he knew about it. I guess I have my answer. Now, if CJ cares to discuss why he is wrong about needing an extended follow through for good draw, I will be happy to discuss it with him. If he doesn't want to, so be it.

You lost me...why do you "need" an extended follow through for good draw?....and what is "good" draw mean....and why do you drop your shoulder....and are you really straight AND consistent ....really? And is it beneficial to think about dropping or not dropping your elbow? And can you play pure? Can you play perfectly? Can you play perfectly with an unpure stroke? Can you play bad with a good stroke? What is a good stroke anyway? How can you tell?

 

[Neil]

You lost me...why do you "need" an extended follow through for good draw?....and what is "good" draw mean....and why do you drop your shoulder....and are you really straight AND consistent ....really? And is it beneficial to think about dropping or not dropping your elbow? And can you play pure? Can you play perfectly? Can you play perfectly with an unpure stroke? Can you play bad with a good stroke? What is a good stroke anyway? How can you tell?

Uh, why are you lost? YOU are the one that said you do. Which is what I questioned. And, what's up with all the questions that are totally off topic?? Is that your way of saying I don't know anything? If so, you are very, very, wrong. I can easily answer each and every question, but see absolutely no reason to do so. If what you are after, is nothing more than a defense of being offended by being questioned, then you need to get a thicker skin to be on here.:wink:

 

[Neil]

You lost me...why do you "need" an extended follow through for good draw?....and what is "good" draw mean....and why do you drop your shoulder....and are you really straight AND consistent ....really? And is it beneficial to think about dropping or not dropping your elbow? And can you play pure? Can you play perfectly? Can you play perfectly with an unpure stroke? Can you play bad with a good stroke? What is a good stroke anyway? How can you tell?

You know what, CJ? I'm going to answer your questionaire. I'll just keep the reason to myself for now.

1. Q. Why do you need and extended follow through for good draw?
A. You don't, as I already explained previously.

2. Q. What is good draw?
A. Good draw is being able to accurately draw back from an inch to table length, and rarely a few diamonds more than that. Also, being able to accurately draw back at an angle, not just straight back.

3. Q. Why do you drop your shoulder?
A. I play better when I don't. However, after way too many years of doing so, sometimes the brain wires to the old habits instead of the new habits.

4. Q. Are you really straight and consistent?
A. For the most part, yes. That does not equate to "always". Consistent, yes, perfect, no.

5. Q. Is it beneficial to think about dropping or not dropping the elbow?
A. Well, you didn't define the "when". In practice, yes. If you don't think about what you are doing in practice, you don't know what you are doing. If you don't know what you are doing, you can't fix anything you are doing wrong. In actual play? NO. In actual play you need to be on auto pilot. You need your subconscious to be working at full speed.If you are consciously thinking once you are down on the shot, you are limiting your potential for a successful outcome of the shot. Much akin to walking. You train your mind how to react to a situation. So, when you want to walk, you just think "walk", and you do it just fine for the most part. If you start thinking about walking when you go to walk, you will have trouble putting one foot in front of the other.

6. Q. Can I play pure?
A. I have. You don't run 12 racks once, 10 racks at least three times, and 9 racks at least half a dozen times not playing nearly "pure". But, I guess that depends on exactly what your definition of "pure" would be.

7. Q. Can I play perfectly?
A. Sure. Almost everyone can. The real question should be "how long can you play perfectly?" At my age, with my health problems, not very long anymore. Have I ever for an extended period of time? Well, in my opinion, no. In some others opinions, yes. To some, making high runs, you had to play perfectly. However, that is not true. You can still get out of line a number of times, but "get away with it", as you well know. So, perfectly, in the true sense of the word? Not for more than a few shots. Same as everyone else, including you.

8. Q. Can you play perfectly with an unpure stroke?
A. Ambiguous question. Depends on your meaning of perfectly and unpure. A better question would be "can you play at a very high level with a less than textbook stroke?" The answer to that , for me, would be "sometimes". The general answer, which is probably what you are after here, would be yes, depending on ones definition of an unpure stroke. (see below on Q. #10.)

9. Q. Can you play bad with a good stroke?
A. Yes. A good stroke is only part of the equation to playing good pool. If you can't aim, or play position, you are going to suck big time, no matter how perfect your stroke is.

10&11. Q. What is a good stroke anyway, and how can you tell??
A. First, it doesn't matter what kind of stroke you have. You can shoot behind your back and under your leg for all I care. The issue is, can you reliably and consistently hit the cb where you want to, at the speed you want to? THAT is the crux of the question. Straight all the way, followthrough so much you scare the player on the next table, swoop the cue so bad you scare the railbirds, accelerate, decelerate, it doesn't matter as long as you hit where and at the proper speed that you intend to. If you do that, you will get the results you want. Which is what the whole gist of it is about.

Trouble is, the vast majority of people cannot do all that crazy stuff without having problems of hitting where and at what speed correctly. They do not have consistency. So, I know, and I have posted it on here many times, as have others, I will now ask you since you want to teach... how do you teach someone to stroke the ball to have the consistency to hit where they intend to hit the cb, and at the speed they intend to hit the cb??

Now, I am sure you and others took a little gasp when I stated that it really doesn't matter if you are accelerating or decelerating when you hit the cb. Well, in reality, it doesn't. What matters, and exactly WHY deceleration is "bad" for most, is simply because you don't hit the cb at the speed you intended to hit it. Thereby, your english and speed won't be what you wanted them to be. However, If you CONSISTENTLY have a decelerating stroke, and have been one of the .00000001% that can do it reliably, then you know exactly how the cb will react with YOUR stroke, and it is not a problem for you.

 

[ENGLISH!]

During a pendulum swing, the object starts to accelerate while moving forward. At the lowest part of the swing, acceleration is actually at zero. You still have forward movement, but not acceleration. It is now moving at a constant speed. After contact with the cb, the cue slows way down. (does this no matter what type of stroke you use), then the forward motion of the arm makes the cue start to accelerate again.

The big thing to remember, is that acceleration means the cue is constantly moving faster and faster. If the cue is moving forward at a set speed, there is no acceleration. The optimum goal would be to have the cue moving at a set forward speed with zero acceleration at contact. (which the pendulum happens to do). That way, you have better control over the speed the ball was actually hit at.

Neil,

I don't fully understand. For how long in time & distance does the pendulum move at a constant speed? I thought it was infinitly small. Also, how does the foward motion of the arm make the cue start to accelerate again after contact if it is on the other side of the pivit point? If it is a true pendulum would it not decelerate to a brief stop & reverse course in the other direction? Also why doesn't the cue tip lift off of an open bridge or strain to do so on a closed bridge if it is moving in a pendulum motion? Am I confused or are we simply speaking in a different vernacular.

I don't believe that I employ a full pendulum. I 'believe(think)' that I take the forearm back on a pendulum like arc but due to a changing hand / forearm relationship due to some wrist motion along with some cue movement within my two(2) point side against side 'presure' grip that the cue slides & 'loads' but because of the reversal to the foward stroke being initiated with muscular activity instead of gravity and due to the changing wrist position & two sided pressure point grip the cue seems to stay more level with less raising & lowering, more like a piston in a cylinder.

Would it be corect to say that I am using a pedulum type arm swing but due to the loose connection to the cue changeing the 90* relationship to the forearm that the cue moves in more of a level piston like motion.

Is this a hybrid of the two strokes, pendulum & piston or am I confused? It kind of seems more like a reversed flail.

I guess that I really do not understand the true differences between the two(2) strokes. Maybe you can help me out. My guess is it probably has something to do with how one 'holds' the cue that might dictate the stroke.

Sorry for the long rant but I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter but so far I'm not fully understanding what you have said.

I really want to understand even though I probably wil not change my stroke after 46 years. Unless I can convince myself that there is a distinct advantage to attempt to do so.

Thanks in advance,
Rick

PS I missed alot while putting this together(post#39). I'm a pecker not a typist.