Cue Tips with CJ WILEY - Drawing the Ball

[Scott Lee]

CJ...That's a very well done instructional spot. Are the rest of them available for us to see? I saw that one was #10...how many are there? I know you meant the part about "extended followthrough to mean don't poke the CB (to the beginners). That said, the elbow drop 'extended followthrough' demonstrated is not necessary to perform the draw shot in your clip. Elbow drop is a choice...not a necesssity. It is a more complex movement, and therefore prone to small errors for most players. In the end, since the elbow drop cannot physically "enhance" the outcome of the shot, I prefer to play and teach a smooth pendulum stroke...as almost anyone can learn, and master that. The timing required for an accurate piston stroke is much more difficult, than an SPF stroke. Both ways work...people make their own choices.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3lBId64gYw&feature=plcp

 

[Scott Lee]

As Bob suggests, it is quite easy for a trained eye to spot elbow drop...particularly P-CUAR (LOL on the acronym). One of the greatest benefits of video review is the ability to SHOW the student themselves. The impact of seeing exactly what you do, is sometimes shocking, in that they had no idea that they showed certain stroke behaviors. You can't fix what you don't know about...and you can't fix what you can't measure. Hence, video review is, imo. to "new school" thinking, as "eyeballin' it" is to "old school" thinking. In the long run, technology helps make us better instructors.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Any regular video camera is sufficient for this purpose. If you know what to look for I think it's pretty easy to recognize "post-contact upper arm relaxation," or P-CUAR, without a camera.

 

[CJ Wiley]

whhheeewww, much better

You know what, CJ? I'm going to answer your questionaire. I'll just keep the reason to myself for now.

1. Q. Why do you need and extended follow through for good draw?
A. You don't, as I already explained previously.

2. Q. What is good draw?
A. Good draw is being able to accurately draw back from an inch to table length, and rarely a few diamonds more than that. Also, being able to accurately draw back at an angle, not just straight back.

3. Q. Why do you drop your shoulder?
A. I play better when I don't. However, after way too many years of doing so, sometimes the brain wires to the old habits instead of the new habits.



4. Q. Are you really straight and consistent?
A. For the most part, yes. That does not equate to "always". Consistent, yes, perfect, no.

5. Q. Is it beneficial to think about dropping or not dropping the elbow?
A. Well, you didn't define the "when". In practice, yes. If you don't think about what you are doing in practice, you don't know what you are doing. If you don't know what you are doing, you can't fix anything you are doing wrong. In actual play? NO. In actual play you need to be on auto pilot. You need your subconscious to be working at full speed.If you are consciously thinking once you are down on the shot, you are limiting your potential for a successful outcome of the shot. Much akin to walking. You train your mind how to react to a situation. So, when you want to walk, you just think "walk", and you do it just fine for the most part. If you start thinking about walking when you go to walk, you will have trouble putting one foot in front of the other.

6. Q. Can I play pure?
A. I have. You don't run 12 racks once, 10 racks at least three times, and 9 racks at least half a dozen times not playing nearly "pure". But, I guess that depends on exactly what your definition of "pure" would be.

7. Q. Can I play perfectly?
A. Sure. Almost everyone can. The real question should be "how long can you play perfectly?" At my age, with my health problems, not very long anymore. Have I ever for an extended period of time? Well, in my opinion, no. In some others opinions, yes. To some, making high runs, you had to play perfectly. However, that is not true. You can still get out of line a number of times, but "get away with it", as you well know. So, perfectly, in the true sense of the word? Not for more than a few shots. Same as everyone else, including you.

8. Q. Can you play perfectly with an unpure stroke?
A. Ambiguous question. Depends on your meaning of perfectly and unpure. A better question would be "can you play at a very high level with a less than textbook stroke?" The answer to that , for me, would be "sometimes". The general answer, which is probably what you are after here, would be yes, depending on ones definition of an unpure stroke. (see below on Q. #10.)

9. Q. Can you play bad with a good stroke?
A. Yes. A good stroke is only part of the equation to playing good pool. If you can't aim, or play position, you are going to suck big time, no matter how perfect your stroke is.

10&11. Q. What is a good stroke anyway, and how can you tell??
A. First, it doesn't matter what kind of stroke you have. You can shoot behind your back and under your leg for all I care. The issue is, can you reliably and consistently hit the cb where you want to, at the speed you want to? THAT is the crux of the question. Straight all the way, followthrough so much you scare the player on the next table, swoop the cue so bad you scare the railbirds, accelerate, decelerate, it doesn't matter as long as you hit where and at the proper speed that you intend to. If you do that, you will get the results you want. Which is what the whole gist of it is about.

Trouble is, the vast majority of people cannot do all that crazy stuff without having problems of hitting where and at what speed correctly. They do not have consistency. So, I know, and I have posted it on here many times, as have others, I will now ask you since you want to teach... how do you teach someone to stroke the ball to have the consistency to hit where they intend to hit the cb, and at the speed they intend to hit the cb??

Now, I am sure you and others took a little gasp when I stated that it really doesn't matter if you are accelerating or decelerating when you hit the cb. Well, in reality, it doesn't. What matters, and exactly WHY deceleration is "bad" for most, is simply because you don't hit the cb at the speed you intended to hit it. Thereby, your english and speed won't be what you wanted them to be. However, If you CONSISTENTLY have a decelerating stroke, and have been one of the .00000001% that can do it reliably, then you know exactly how the cb will react with YOUR stroke, and it is not a problem for you.

Thanks, after answering 101 questions from MANY people I feel the need to ask a few myself once in a while....whhheeewww, I feel much better, thanks :smile:

 

[CJ Wiley]

Teaching the 7 Level Cake

CJ...That's a very well done instructional spot. Are the rest of them available for us to see? I saw that one was #10...how many are there? I know you meant the part about "extended followthrough to mean don't poke the CB (to the beginners). That said, the elbow drop 'extended followthrough' demonstrated is not necessary to perform the draw shot in your clip. Elbow drop is a choice...not a necesssity. It is a more complex movement, and therefore prone to small errors for most players. In the end, since the elbow drop cannot physically "enhance" the outcome of the shot, I prefer to play and teach a smooth pendulum stroke...as almost anyone can learn, and master that. The timing required for an accurate piston stroke is much more difficult, than an SPF stroke. Both ways work...people make their own choices.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Yes, I'm glad you caught that about the "extended follow through"....there's a difference in teaching beginners, intermidiate and advanced, this show was for beginners and I'm teaching on here at the intermediate level....there are people on this forum that can learn at the advanced level, and it still must be done in layers....it's a 7 Layer Cake. :wink:

 

[FranCrimi]

As Bob suggests, it is quite easy for a trained eye to spot elbow drop...particularly P-CUAR (LOL on the acronym). One of the greatest benefits of video review is the ability to SHOW the student themselves. The impact of seeing exactly what you do, is sometimes shocking, in that they had no idea that they showed certain stroke behaviors. You can't fix what you don't know about...and you can't fix what you can't measure. Hence, video review is, imo. to "new school" thinking, as "eyeballin' it" is to "old school" thinking. In the long run, technology helps make us better instructors.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I think of definitions as something more universal than just limited to teachers, people with a trained eye and people who can use video review. Universal is not old school. Universal means it is for everyone.

 

[FranCrimi]

Yes, I'm glad you caught that about the "extended follow through"....there's a difference in teaching beginners, intermidiate and advanced, this show was for beginners and I'm teaching on here at the intermediate level....there are people on this forum that can learn at the advanced level, and it still must be done in layers....it's a 7 Layer Cake. :wink:

I like that -----7 Layer Cake. ----Great analogy, CJ.

 

[Neil]

Neil,

I don't fully understand. For how long in time & distance does the pendulum move at a constant speed? I thought it was infinitly small.It might be better if you look up Dr. Daves material. He has charts made up on it. Also, how does the foward motion of the arm make the cue start to accelerate again after contact if it is on the other side of the pivit point?Mass. The weight of your cue and arm is much more than the cb. The forward motion of the cue is not stopped by the smaller mass of the cb. If it is a true pendulum would it not decelerate to a brief stop & reverse course in the other direction?Only if the masses were equal. Also why doesn't the cue tip lift off of an open bridge or strain to do so on a closed bridge if it is moving in a pendulum motion? Am I confused or are we simply speaking in a different vernacular.If you employ a tight grip, it will.(you don't want a tight grip)



I don't believe that I employ a full pendulum. I 'believe(think)' that I take the forearm back on a pendulum like arc but due to a changing hand / forearm relationship due to some wrist motion along with some cue movement within my two(2) point side against side 'presure' grip that the cue slides & 'loads' but because of the reversal to the foward stroke being initiated with muscular activity instead of gravity and due to the changing wrist position & two sided pressure point grip the cue seems to stay more level with less raising & lowering, more like a piston in a cylinder.

Would it be corect to say that I am using a pedulum type arm swing but due to the loose connection to the cue changeing the 90* relationship to the forearm that the cue moves in more of a level piston like motion.

Is this a hybrid of the two strokes, pendulum & piston or am I confused? It kind of seems more like a reversed flail.
Have you ever had yourself filmed? Odds are you are dropping your elbow some without even realizing that you do. With the abscence of film, maybe you could have a friend place his hand under your upper arm to see if you actually are dropping it during the stroke. If your cue is staying level most of the way there, odds are you are dropping your elbow.
I guess that I really do not understand the true differences between the two(2) strokes. Maybe you can help me out. My guess is it probably has something to do with how one 'holds' the cue that might dictate the stroke.

Sorry for the long rant but I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter but so far I'm not fully understanding what you have said.

I really want to understand even though I probably wil not change my stroke after 46 years. Unless I can convince myself that there is a distinct advantage to attempt to do so.

Thanks in advance,
Rick

PS I missed alot while putting this together(post#39). I'm a pecker not a typist.

The pendulum stroke- First, most do not do it correctly. A prime requirement to it is that you have to have your tip at the cb with your forearm 90º to the cue. Most have the tip an inch or two away from the cb at setup. Then, when they actually do strike the cb, they are hitting below where they intended to hit it.

Set up properly, the pendulum stroke makes it much easier to hit the cb right where you intend to. There is little that can go wrong with it. It is very repeatable. It follows one path, the arc, and one path only.

The piston stroke- There is nothing "wrong" with this type of stroke, IF you can accurately hit the cb where you want to with it. The problem with it is that you have so many moving parts to it, that very few will actually be very accurate on the cb with it. They THINK they are, but when you test just where they are hitting the cb vs. where they are supposed to be hitting it, invariably they find out that they really aren't very consistent at all. For most of us, that means that they will hit a plateau that they won't be able to cross until they change something to make them more accurate in hitting the cb.

For some, they made add another "twist" to their stroke to compensate for an error. (another moving part) At times, that little change may make them play "lights out", however, they won't be able to maintain that level of play from day to day. They will have many "ups and downs".

So, the real goal, is to make the stroke as simple as it can be. Break it down into the necessary things, and leave it at that. In essence, why add a bunch of movement that can make things go wrong? Yet, that is exactly what 99% of people do. They do it because they see others do it, and think that is the "right" way to play. They also do it because using the whole arm to stroke seems more "natural" to them. It does, because in almost everything else, we use the whole arm. But, look at writing, you don't use your whole arm to write, you break it down to moving only what you have to move. And, doing that, you can be very accurate in placement of the pen tip.

Pool is actually more akin to writing than it is to throwing a baseball. We just weren't taught that way at the beginning.

Bottom line- you want the best accuracy? Move as little as possible to get the job done. You want to feel that flow of the cue through your fingers? Use more body parts.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Pendulum stroke?

Neil,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I still do not fully understand the reference, 'pendulum stroke'. I think it should, as I 'understand' it, be refered to as a pendulum technique or a pendulum mind set.

A pendulum swings due to gravitational forces upon a mass that has been loaded in some manner to store kinetic energy & that kinetic energy has been released. Once it, the mass, accelerates to a point in line with the pivot point & the source of the gravitational pull, it, the mass, decelerates to a point on the other side of that line. How can it accelerate after contact with the CB? As I understand it, it would decelerate even if it made no contact with any other mass due to the gravitational force pulling on it in the opposite direction.

Also, how can it be a pendulum stroke if the cue, the mass, does not follow the arc of the pendulum but instead travels on a straight line at the bottom of the arc? You say it would lift up if we had a tight, firm grip. You then say that we do not want one.

IMHO, Unless I a have been completely mis-taught my physics, it is not a pendulim stroke. It is simply a technique to deliver the cue in a fashion simuliar to the movement of a pendulum, which is an arc based on a single pivot point.
It might be more accuartely caled an 'arc stroke'

I'm trying, probably not successfully, to not be argumentative, but I simply do not understand, based on my physics understanding. I would like to clarify my 'understanding' of what is refered to as a pendulum stroke.

I hope you can put up with me for one more attempt on your part.

Thanks in advance,
Rick

 

[Neil]

Neil,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I still do not fully understand the reference, 'pendulum stroke'. I think it should, as I 'understand' it, be refered to as a pendulum technique or a pendulum mind set.

A pendulum swings due to gravitational forces upon a mass that has been loaded in some manner to store kinetic energy & that kinetic energy has been released. Once it, the mass, accelerates to a point in line with the pivot point & the source of the gravitational pull, it, the mass, decelerates to a point on the other side of that line. How can it accelerate after contact with the CB? As I understand it, it would decelerate even if it made no contact with any other mass due to the gravitational force pulling on it in the opposite direction.

Also, how can it be a pendulum stroke if the cue, the mass, does not follow the arc of the pendulum but instead travels on a straight line at the bottom of the arc? You say it would lift up if we had a tight, firm grip. You then say that we do not want one.

IMHO, Unless I a have been completely mis-taught my physics, it is not a pendulim stroke. It is simply a technique to deliver the cue in a fashion simuliar to the movement of a pendulum, which is an arc based on a single pivot point.
It might be more accuartely caled an 'arc stroke'

I'm trying, probably not successfully, to not be argumentative, but I simply do not understand, based on my physics understanding. I would like to clarify my 'understanding' of what is refered to as a pendulum stroke.

I hope you can put up with me for one more attempt on your part.

Thanks in advance,
Rick

With the lower arm at 90º to the cue, without moving the elbow, bring the cue back. This action will raise the butt of the cue considerably. At contact, you are level or very near level with your stroke. A true pendulum would only use gravity. However, here you are also often using arm muscle to bring the cue forward. Once you hit the cb, your arm continues along the pendulum arc and your back hand now comes up again. You do not stop the cue, instead you just finish your stroke.

Because the back hand now comes up after contact, the tip wants to dive down because your bridge hand is holding the cue. If you have an open bridge, and a loose grip, the tip will still stay down, but the cue, having freedom of movement in your back hand, will not come up with the whole length of the cue as it would if you had a tight grip.

Hard to describe. Have you tried googling it or searching the pendulum stroke on here to see a video of it?? Here's one by Roger Long on here- http://www.ehow.com/video_4941727_billiards-pendulum-stroke.html and here's one by Dr. Dave on here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlmhEqTikYI

 

[Scott Lee]

Rick...Take a lesson from a PBIA/SPF instructor. You will understand it perfectly. You may not necessarily "like" it (because the actual physics may differ from your physics 'understanding')...but you will understand it. Who knows...it's entirely possible that you might understand it better, and decide to trade what you do now (which is by definition, inconsistent, because you admit to doing things different ways, based on uncontrollable variables), and replace it with a natural pendulum swing, that is set up and delivered the exact same way, regardless of tip position or swing speed (for SOP shots, which are 90% of what we actually shoot). It's happened many many times before...a really good player, who has elbow dropped forever, learns that they just don't have to do that, to "get the job done"...and just quits elbow dropping. At least a pendulum stroke is accurate and repeatable...and last, but not least, the elbow is a hinge, so the cue is delivered in a straight line (barring a tight grip or shoulder involvement).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I would like to clarify my 'understanding' of what is refered to as a pendulum stroke.

I hope you can put up with me for one more attempt on your part.

Thanks in advance,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

With the lower arm at 90º to the cue, without moving the elbow, bring the cue back. This action will raise the butt of the cue considerably. At contact, you are level or very near level with your stroke. A true pendulum would only use gravity. However, here you are also often using arm muscle to bring the cue forward. Once you hit the cb, your arm continues along the pendulum arc and your back hand now comes up again. You do not stop the cue, instead you just finish your stroke.

Because the back hand now comes up after contact, the tip wants to dive down because your bridge hand is holding the cue. If you have an open bridge, and a loose grip, the tip will still stay down, but the cue, having freedom of movement in your back hand, will not come up with the whole length of the cue as it would if you had a tight grip.

Hard to describe. Have you tried googling it or searching the pendulum stroke on here to see a video of it?? Here's one by Roger Long on here- http://www.ehow.com/video_4941727_billiards-pendulum-stroke.html and here's one by Dr. Dave on here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlmhEqTikYI

Niel,

Thanks for trying to clarify it for me & for the video link. Seeing Mr. Long do it in slow motion was a good 'picture'. I do understand both the physics & the mechanics of it. IMHO, I think it would be more accurately classified as a reverse flail similiar to the ancient javlin throw where a short teather was attached to the javlin or spear. IMHO for this to work more accurately than some other strokes it would require near perfect set-up similiar to the Muecci shaft testing machine. Near perfect set-up is not always possible as one needs to start where your opponent leaves you, sometimes that is stretched out, shooting over a ball, etc.

All that being said, it is similar to my stroke except that I subconsciously do something to allow or make the shaft travel in much more of a straight line without the tip moving up or down during the stroke. I would rather trust my subconscious mind than trust that I am consciously set up perfectly.

Could I teach my stroke to a beginer or a novice? Probably not, or at least not in one lesson. Is the 'pendulum' stroke teachable? Yes. Is it better? Not IMHO. Not for playing pool in the practicle sense.

Thanks again.
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick...Take a lesson from a PBIA/SPF instructor. You will understand it perfectly. You may not necessarily "like" it (because the actual physics may differ from your physics 'understanding')...but you will understand it. Who knows...it's entirely possible that you might understand it better, and decide to trade what you do now (which is by definition, inconsistent, because you admit to doing things different ways, based on uncontrollable variables), and replace it with a natural pendulum swing, that is set up and delivered the exact same way, regardless of tip position or swing speed (for SOP shots, which are 90% of what we actually shoot). It's happened many many times before...a really good player, who has elbow dropped forever, learns that they just don't have to do that, to "get the job done"...and just quits elbow dropping. At least a pendulum stroke is accurate and repeatable...and last, but not least, the elbow is a hinge, so the cue is delivered in a straight line (barring a tight grip or shoulder involvement).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mr. Lee,

Please see post # 51.
Thanks but no thanks.

PS If I were to 'take a lesson', I would rather take one from Mr. Wiley or maybe Ms. Crimi.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Extending my TIP Through the Ball".....Jimmy "King James" Rempe

Mr. Lee,

Please see post # 51.
Thanks but no thanks.

PS If I were to 'take a lesson', I would rather take one from Mr. Wiley or maybe Ms. Crimi.

I don't recommend thinking about the stroke as much as what you're trying to get the cue to do....what is your outcome? If it's to have a pendulum stroke or some other type that's fine....however, what are you trying to accomplish with the cue, that delivers the TIP, that effects the cue ball , that controls the game? I like to think in terms of "Extending my TIP Through the Ball".....Jimmy "King James" Rempe told me that one time and I LOVED IT.....it summoned up exactly how I felt when I was playing my best...I wasn't hitting, stoking, pendulous, etc.....I was extending my TIP through the ball and this enabled me to judge my speed and precision.

 

[Scott Lee]

Rick...That's okay. It just shows that you have no clear understanding of how a pendulum stroke works (it is nothing like you described)...and have no interest in finding out. That's certainly your choice. Good luck with your game.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mr. Lee,

Please see post # 51.
Thanks but no thanks.

PS If I were to 'take a lesson', I would rather take one from Mr. Wiley or maybe Ms. Crimi.

 

[softshot]

I don't recommend thinking about the stroke as much as what you're trying to get the cue to do....

depends on if you are in a game or in practice... in a game I agree with you play pool.... because if you worry about mechanics while playing.. you're dead in the water..

but if you never worry about your mechanics you'll never get any better..

that's what I see practice as... the time you set aside to worry about the things you can't worry about during a game...

currently my practice regimen is based on the Idea of musical scales.. I have created an entire workout of pool scales...practice everything possible at the edge of your ability...until every shot is the same...

push every one of your limits in practice... take the easiest possible shot in game..

what is your outcome?

depends upon the goal 2 different goals for 2 different outcomes

practice your weaknesses until they become strengths, weak mechanics will only take you so far. sooner or later everyone has to come to grips with that..

if you never worry about your mechanics you'll never get any better..

 

[CJ Wiley]

When in doubt "Be the Cue Ball"

depends on if you are in a game or in practice... in a game I agree with you play pool.... because if you worry about mechanics while playing.. you're dead in the water..

but if you never worry about your mechanics you'll never get any better..

that's what I see practice as... the time you set aside to worry about the things you can't worry about during a game...

currently my practice regimen is based on the Idea of musical scales.. I have created an entire workout of pool scales...practice everything possible at the edge of your ability...until every shot is the same...

push every one of your limits in practice... take the easiest possible shot in game..



depends upon the goal 2 different goals for 2 different outcomes

practice your weaknesses until they become strengths, weak mechanics will only take you so far. sooner or later everyone has to come to grips with that..

if you never worry about your mechanics you'll never get any better..

When in doubt "Be the Cue Ball".....and let the Game play through you 'The Game is the Teacher Click Here to Be the Ball

 

[One Pocket John]

I don't recommend thinking about the stroke as much as what you're trying to get the cue to do....what is your outcome? If it's to have a pendulum stroke or some other type that's fine....however, what are you trying to accomplish with the cue, that delivers the TIP, that effects the cue ball , that controls the game? I like to think in terms of "Extending my TIP Through the Ball".....Jimmy "King James" Rempe told me that one time and I LOVED IT.....it summoned up exactly how I felt when I was playing my best...I wasn't hitting, stoking, pendulous, etc.....I was extending my TIP through the ball and this enabled me to judge my speed and precision.

If I understand the comment in bold correctly.

I shoot thru the QB as though its not there. Like shooting thru a ghost QB and aim the tip of my cue at the contact point on the OB.

Please correct me if I'm not understanding correctly.

Thanks CJ

John

 

[FranCrimi]

Rick...That's okay. It just shows that you have no clear understanding of how a pendulum stroke works (it is nothing like you described)...and have no interest in finding out. That's certainly your choice. Good luck with your game.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Oh, stop it already. How old are you? Six?

 

[BilliardsAbout]

All I can say to that, is WOW! You have a lot to learn. Especially about the pendulum stroke. Your article is so full of holes that it's not even worth shooting through them! Just one example- because you guys think the way you do, is exactly why you can't reliably hit the cb where you want to, such as hitting center ball, and have to come up with other ways to compensate for it. Think about that for a while. Also, while you are at it, re-read your own article, and take the same argument you have against the pendulum stroke, and substitute "elbow dropping" for "pendulum stroke", and you will be much more accurate than you are. Seriously, think about it.

Wow. You are misunderstanding completely. I have very close to a pendulum stroke. But like CJ wrote, there is no perfect pendulum going backward and forward:

1. The wrist might deviate at the ulna or radius or both on a fine stroke.

2. There is a cue ball struck at the bottom of the pendulum arc.

The difference from a true pendulum stroke for a good player is slight--very slight--but people who practice pendulum strokes would be better served to think of the stroke as straight back and forth rather than try to consciously pendulum their arm.

My article is just fine, thanks, and contains no errors of logic or physical fact.

Not trying to hijack the thread but feel free to start a new one and debate me. I'm tired and so are AZ readers of hearing "...So many problems I won't try to list any of them here..."

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don't recommend thinking about the stroke as much as what you're trying to get the cue to do....what is your outcome? If it's to have a pendulum stroke or some other type that's fine....however, what are you trying to accomplish with the cue, that delivers the TIP, that effects the cue ball , that controls the game? I like to think in terms of "Extending my TIP Through the Ball".....Jimmy "King James" Rempe told me that one time and I LOVED IT.....it summoned up exactly how I felt when I was playing my best...I wasn't hitting, stoking, pendulous, etc.....I was extending my TIP through the ball and this enabled me to judge my speed and precision.

Mr. Wiley, I'm all good. I'm not tampering with my stroke. I totally agree with your comments in this post. It was merely an intellectual dive into why it is called a 'pendulum' stroke. Which by true physics it is not.

Thanks for trying to help but as I said I'm good.
Rick