cue vibration

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cueassembler

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I am a newbie/hobby cuemaker. A question for the cuemakers is what are the causes of a buzz or vibration in a cue? A cue I am making has a vibration in the forearm when tapped on one side only. When hitting a ball it feels normal. The forearm/handle joint has a one inch long tenon and three inch aluminum threaded rod with 15 min epoxy.
 
I have only had one cue that buzzed. It was when I started out and was sloppy in my methods.... learn by doing....I learned my lesson on cue construction and never had that again. Fast epoxy doesn't have time to soak in before it set up and may not give a good joint that will last. Slow setting epoxy is best but even that may soak in and leave a somewhat dry joint. Apply it several times over a few minutes then assemble.


I use gorilla glue because it expands and I have never had another problem. BTW... I don't use an A joint type of construction.

OK.... so what do you do now that you have a buzz????

1. cut it up to see the problem??
2. burn it?
3 fix it.

Ok let's fix it. First be sure exactly where the problem is. I take it the buzz is in the A joint so lets start there.

Remove the pin... what ever method you like.

Then. using a 3/8 gun drill, drill in the joint end of the cue past the A joint and a few inches into the handle. With an aluminum screw in the A joint it won't be hard.

Now buy or make a 3/8 wooden dowel of maple. Sand it until it fits nicely into the hole and to the bottom. You might want to sand a flat on one side for glue relief. Glue in into the hole using a slow set epoxy or gorilla glue.

When the glue is set up, you might need to drill and plug the joint with a little larger plug so you can drill and tap for a new joint screw.

Granted.... not the best but it will eliminate the buzz and save the cue.

Kim
 
Going on the info given it does sound as though the A-assembly didn't go well.
Golden opportunity to learn a bunch. #1, get rid of the quick epoxy. What's your hurry ?
The 'A' is the first assembly and the most important. Get that wrong and the whole cue is wrong.
Kim has given you an option, I'll give you another. No idea of your equipment but it may not matter.
Mount the cue in a lathe with the F/A in the Hd-stk, butt at the t-stk.
Leave about 1/2 to 1" of the F/a sticking out the chuck, right near the top of the wrap handle.
Part the cue at the wrap-top using a .045-.060" parting tool. Hold the wrap handle while parting.
Once you have the cue in 2 pcs. you may be able to see something. Look, prod, both halves.
A strong, single tenon (dowel) going both ways for reassembly will eliminate your buzz problem.
Aluminum screws ain't all they're cracked-up to be.
I'm beginning to believe that alum is loosing it's place in cues, well, other than rings and faux wgt blts.
Use the lathe as your reassembly clamp after truing and indicating everything in.
If your lathe is true, your handle should be also. Good Luck. I mean it this time. Lol
 
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KJ... as of lately I have seen some builders that use a threaded wooden dowel to securely assemble an A joint.

As I don't do A joints, I was wondering what you think of that approach over a threaded steel screw?

Kim
 
KJ Cues said:
Going on the info given it does sound as though the A-assembly didn't go well.
Golden opportunity to learn a bunch. #1, get rid of the quick epoxy. What's your hurry ?
The 'A' is the first assembly and the most important. Get that wrong and the whole cue is wrong.
Kim has given you an option, I'll give you another. No idea of your equipment but it may not matter.
Mount the cue in a lathe with the F/A in the Hd-stk, butt at the t-stk.
Leave about 1/2 to 1" of the F/a sticking out the chuck, right near the top of the wrap handle.
Part the cue at the wrap-top using a .045-.060" parting tool. Hold the wrap handle while parting.
Once you have the cue in 2 pcs. you may be able to see something. Look, prod, both halves.
A strong, single tenon going both ways for reassembly will eliminate your buzz problem.
Aluminum screws ain't all they're cracked-up to be.
I'm beginning to believe that alum is loosing it's place in cues, well, other than rings and faux wgt blts.
Use the lathe as your reassembly clamp after truing and indicating everything in.
If your lathe is true, your handle should be also. Good Luck. I mean it this time. Lol
Click to expand...
:D:D:D:D
Nothing glues better than wood outside of G-10 imo.
I'm partial to 15" long forearm cores and using the bottom for threaded tenon to the handle.
When that core is turned between centers and let sit a long time, it's golden.
 
whammo57 said:
KJ... as of lately I have seen some builders that use a threaded wooden dowel to securely assemble an A joint.

As I don't do A joints, I was wondering what you think of that approach over a threaded steel screw?

Kim
Click to expand...

I think it's a fantastic idea but it's success is dependent on the dowel's diameter.
Too small of a dia. and the dowel is useless. Too large and you're compromising the
F/A sidewall and the wrap-handle sidewall (which is smaller than the F/A sidewall).
We've been throwing the word 'golden' around a bit lately and maybe with good reason.
Finding that perfect diameter would be your Goldie Locks moment.
It's about what you as the builder are comfortable with.
I will also add that Pechauer cues are absent of any internal metal (except wgt blt).
Everything they do is threaded and I respect that.
 
Thanks all for the suggestions and constructive comments. I will be going with the longer setting structural epoxy.
The more I inspect the cue, the more it seems like the problem is in the joint screw, so that is where I plan to start.
 
KJ Cues said:
I think it's a fantastic idea but it's success is dependent on the dowel's diameter.
Too small of a dia. and the dowel is useless. Too large and you're compromising the
F/A sidewall and the wrap-handle sidewall (which is smaller than the F/A sidewall).
We've been throwing the word 'golden' around a bit lately and maybe with good reason.
Finding that perfect diameter would be your Goldie Locks moment.
It's about what you as the builder are comfortable with.
I will also add that Pechauer cues are absent of any internal metal (except wgt blt).
Everything they do is threaded and I respect that.
Click to expand...


You are thinking too deep into it. I have done this and a nice slip fit works just fine. Same feel as a coring dowel......... I had success with it.

I assure you that a goldie locks moment is not necessary. Something was loose and the dowel stopped it from moving and vibrating.

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
You are thinking too deep into it. I have done this and a nice slip fit works just fine. Same feel as a coring dowel......... I had success with it.

I assure you that a goldie locks moment is not necessary. Something was loose and the dowel stopped it from moving and vibrating.

Kim
Click to expand...

No threads in the A-joint?
 
cueassembler said:
Thanks all for the suggestions and constructive comments. I will be going with the longer setting structural epoxy.
The more I inspect the cue, the more it seems like the problem is in the joint screw, so that is where I plan to start.
Click to expand...

You are doing the right thing. First check all the easy things, weight bolts, butf screws and joint screws. If not those, then the A joint is what is left.
 
cueassembler said:
Thanks all for the suggestions and constructive comments. I will be going with the longer setting structural epoxy.
The more I inspect the cue, the more it seems like the problem is in the joint screw, so that is where I plan to start.
Click to expand...
Here is what solved that problem for me. I shortened my tenon to between .625 and .750". I also glue the screw into half of the cue that has the tenon sticking out of it and let it dry overnight. I get that pin spinning as true as I do a joint pin. I found when gluing them together with the glue wet on both sides the screw would work its way up into one side more than the other or put itself in a bind and cause a buzz. Cut the cue apart and drill out the screw and plug it with wood and start over on the A joint.
Another thing that causes buzzes is gluing the A joint without any ring material. The end grains will soak up the glue and often break loose from each other and cause a buzz. If someone is determined not to use rings on at least one side of the joint then soak the faces in west system or another thin epoxy then lightly face them off after that dries. This gives a good hard surface to bond the faces properly.
 
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Metal stud to wood in the A-joint just freaks me out.
I would defnitely thread in a phenolic rod down there so that phenolic anchors the metal A-joint stud.
I like wood to phenolic in A-joint these days.
 
Having thrown my share of cues like javelins because of exactly what you describe, I can pretty much narrow your issue down to three suspects. Easiest but least likely is the joint pin not fitting snug, so it buzzes from wiggling. More than likely though is the "A" joint. Either your epoxy failed or soaked into the wood leaving a void. Thin epoxy weeps into the wood before it sets, leaving void space. That space allows for movement, which is indicated by the "buzz". Low quality epoxy fails, which is indicated by "buzz". Thin epoxy should be thickened, and you should never use cheap epoxy. Last but not least is over tightening. You dry fit the cue & it's solid, yet when you apply glue it buzzes. Reason being is that liquid glue acts as a lubricant, allowing you to tighten the joint farther than when dry. Wood compress, and as it's organic it doesn't compress evenly. This stress tweaks the joint and causes the void noted in issue #2, which is indicated by the "buzz". Worst of all would be using crappy epoxy that's thin viscosity, and over tightening it. That's a triple whammy doomed for noise. You'd be better off not using glue at all.

Anybody who's ever used a traditional metal stud/tenon/bore "A" joint and built more than just a few cues has experienced exactly what you are. It's part of the progression and learning curve. Get some high quality epoxy that's either thick viscosity or thicken it yourself, and pay close attention to how snug you tighten the joint. If it's 15 minute epoxy, then give it 2 days without touching it. If it's 24hr epoxy, give it 2 days without touching it. Using slower cure allows you time to position the joint and spin between centers to tune before setting. By tune, I mean ensure it's tightened precisely and spins true between centers. Sometimes it takes a few minutes to get it exactly right. Fast cure epoxy doesn't allow you that time. Took me years and lots of ruined cues to figure out what should have been so simple from the beginning, but I didn't know what I didn't know.
 
I like to dry-assemble a-joints and make witness marks to avoid overtightening. Align the witness marks when you assemble and you're in good shape. Others have posted this. Works great.

I'm big on pre-gluing things also, but with a slow, medium thickness epoxy it probably isn't necessary. If you pre-glue furniture parts they are tight forever so I figured it would work on cues also. It does. It just takes a little extra time.

I have a great image in my mind of Eric launching one skyward.:)


Robin Snyder
 
carguy said:
I like to dry-assemble a-joints and make witness marks to avoid overtightening. Align the witness marks when you assemble and you're in good shape. Others have posted this. Works great.

I'm big on pre-gluing things also, but with a slow, medium thickness epoxy it probably isn't necessary. If you pre-glue furniture parts they are tight forever so I figured it would work on cues also. It does. It just takes a little extra time.

I have a great image in my mind of Eric launching one skyward.:)


Robin Snyder
Click to expand...

Some very good info in there.....except for the mental imagery part. Not very good at all :angry:
 
Qbilder and Carguy just offered some great info for new cuemakers or stubborn old timers.

I also like to spin mine after dry-assembly to check for straightness and face off joint if it wiggles. This little suggestion from Gary Medlin made my a joint assemblies work out more uniformly. Previously, some turned out fine, others not so great.
 
qbilder said:
Some very good info in there.....except for the mental imagery part. Not very good at all :angry:
Click to expand...

I was just kidding. No good at all. I guess everyone has screwed one up on the home stretch. Bad feeling.

Robin Snyder
 
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