cue vibration

Just a quick question for the pro's while the subject is still hot.... I was messing with some a-joint stuff recently and was using wood glue. No metal pins. Does anyone else use wood glue as well, or is slow epoxy favorable for longevity?

Also thank you guys for chiming in, this is really valuable stuff here.
 
Just a quick question for the pro's while the subject is still hot.... I was messing with some a-joint stuff recently and was using wood glue. No metal pins. Does anyone else use wood glue as well, or is slow epoxy favorable for longevity?

Also thank you guys for chiming in, this is really valuable stuff here.

Use West 105/206 and learn it's properties.
You'll never look back.
 
Here's a brain bender. A break/jump cue can have nothing but a 3/8-10 joint screw in the "A" joint, with no tenon/bore and no glue. They don't buzz, nor are they weak. Add a tenon/bore & some glue, and now you have to worry if it will buzz or perhaps fail in the future. If you never did anything but used a screw, it stays together just fine & is plenty strong with no buzzing. Why do we create a situation where strength, longevity, and noise are ever even a plausibility? Obviously break/jump cues prove that it's unnecessary, right? Or not?

Do we use a tenon/bore just because that's how everybody does it? Or did each one of us individually arrive at a similar conclusion after much trial & error in our own shops? Obviously there's merit to taking what somebody else has already figured out & continuing on with it or even developing it further. But at what point do we begin relying too much traditional methodology without really understanding why?

My point is that having a discussion about glue may be futile if we don't even know what the glue needs to do. I'm not 100% confident that any glue is the best, or even required at all. I'm not 100% confident that a tenon/bore is even required, or perhaps isn't even counter productive. Perhaps a simple stud with a dab of wood glue to lock the pieces is all that's needed, maybe even is the best. I think about crap like this all the time.
 
It's funny that you mention the use of glue. I saw a cue recently made by a fairly well respected maker who must have forgot that step... The cue was a plain jane player that was not a jump break. When my friend went to unscrew the cue, it started coming apart at the A-joint (as the main joint had gotten stuck). It was a flat faced A-joint with no tenon. I think the CM really just skipped the gluing on accident!
 
Here's a brain bender. A break/jump cue can have nothing but a 3/8-10 joint screw in the "A" joint, with no tenon/bore and no glue. They don't buzz, nor are they weak. Add a tenon/bore & some glue, and now you have to worry if it will buzz or perhaps fail in the future. If you never did anything but used a screw, it stays together just fine & is plenty strong with no buzzing. Why do we create a situation where strength, longevity, and noise are ever even a plausibility? Obviously break/jump cues prove that it's unnecessary, right? Or not?

Do we use a tenon/bore just because that's how everybody does it? Or did each one of us individually arrive at a similar conclusion after much trial & error in our own shops? Obviously there's merit to taking what somebody else has already figured out & continuing on with it or even developing it further. But at what point do we begin relying too much traditional methodology without really understanding why?

My point is that having a discussion about glue may be futile if we don't even know what the glue needs to do. I'm not 100% confident that any glue is the best, or even required at all. I'm not 100% confident that a tenon/bore is even required, or perhaps isn't even counter productive. Perhaps a simple stud with a dab of wood glue to lock the pieces is all that's needed, maybe even is the best. I think about crap like this all the time.

A J/B cue and a 'game-cue' are dimensionally different and with good reason; one is designed to flex, the other isn't.
Consider the task of each. The J/B is designed and built with one load/force in mind; straight-ahead impact.
It's designed specifically to COUNTER flex, ie, to stay as rigid as possible. That also means it doesn't need an 'A' jnt.
Game cues are INTENDED to flex, from the tip to at least to where your grip-hand is, though by that time and place in
the cue, the flex has been reduced to vibration which we call hit. Nobody speaks of the 'hit' in a J/B cue. There is none.
The 'A' is critical for flex. Part of it's design function is to keep the sidewalls of the cue where the handle and F/A meet, closed.
The J/B never sees that load, therefore, the 3/8x10 is adequate for IT'S task. It's not being asked to flex.
The 'A' has much greater function than people realize. It is the 'gate-keeper' (and filter) of the resonance that reaches the hand.
Everyone should design and build their OWN 'A' if they want to be known for THEIR 'hit'.

Your opening question of your 2nd paragraph is a rhetorical.
Most novice/entry-level 'practitioners' will follow someone else's lead; monkey see, monkey do.
It's the entire basis for the 'apprenticeship'. Very few independent thinkers come here to ask questions.
For the most part, they are the ones who answer the questions. Then the world gets to determine who is right.
It's good that you put extended thought into the equation. Some would call it 'over-thinking' the problem.
As long as there is more than one solution, there is no such thing as over-thinking. It's called engineering.

Most newbies are incapable of independent thinking, IMO. Most don't approach the craft as a challenge, a bag
of tricks and riddles to be solved. What they see is the distorted dream of glamour and a chance to make money.
Both goals are pipe-dreams and not really what cue-building is about.
 
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It's funny that you mention the use of glue. I saw a cue recently made by a fairly well respected maker who must have forgot that step... The cue was a plain jane player that was not a jump break. When my friend went to unscrew the cue, it started coming apart at the A-joint (as the main joint had gotten stuck). It was a flat faced A-joint with no tenon. I think the CM really just skipped the gluing on accident!

Well, there's your answer.
Unglued joint become loose.
Flat-face A-joint is a short cut.
Double tenon A-joint is not an overkill.
 
something i do that i've never seen anyone else say they do,
kinda came up with it on my own,
is leave the cue spinning AFTER gluing the A-joint.
lathe in back gear turning about the speed of a hot dog rotisserie.

was concerned that the thinner west epoxy might "settle" unevenly if i didnt keep it moving for a few hours .
figured it cant hurt
 
Here's a brain bender. A break/jump cue can have nothing but a 3/8-10 joint screw in the "A" joint, with no tenon/bore and no glue. They don't buzz, nor are they weak. Add a tenon/bore & some glue, and now you have to worry if it will buzz or perhaps fail in the future. If you never did anything but used a screw, it stays together just fine & is plenty strong with no buzzing. Why do we create a situation where strength, longevity, and noise are ever even a plausibility? Obviously break/jump cues prove that it's unnecessary, right? Or not?

Do we use a tenon/bore just because that's how everybody does it? Or did each one of us individually arrive at a similar conclusion after much trial & error in our own shops? Obviously there's merit to taking what somebody else has already figured out & continuing on with it or even developing it further. But at what point do we begin relying too much traditional methodology without really understanding why?

My point is that having a discussion about glue may be futile if we don't even know what the glue needs to do. I'm not 100% confident that any glue is the best, or even required at all. I'm not 100% confident that a tenon/bore is even required, or perhaps isn't even counter productive. Perhaps a simple stud with a dab of wood glue to lock the pieces is all that's needed, maybe even is the best. I think about crap like this all the time.

Here's my take on this: The A-joint screw does a fine job at drawing the forearm and the handle together but it's poor for resisting torque, as is glue on a flat faced joint surface...there's not much surface! The tenon provides plenty of surface area for glue to resist torque and perhaps improves rigidity.

Two different parts for two different jobs.

Robin Snyder
 
Robin, I was just writing my response to Joey when it didn't save for some reason. Interestingly enough, I was going to bring up part of the point you mentioned. The cue I had referenced in the other post had a larger diameter pin than a 3/8x10 used in a J/B. That reduces the end-grain surface area between handle and forearm (which has been a main concern in the A-joint throughout cue building history). All the gluing area is on the inner bore and on the OD of the pin. Is it the traditional way of doing things? No, but I also wouldn't call it a shortcut. It's just a more simple way of doing things. Shoot, even Kersenbrock mentions a doweling method with no screw at all in his manual... I think many of today's cue builders would cringe at the idea of a non-threaded joint! I enjoy these discussions as it's interesting how many ways there are to achieve a similar goal.
 
The 'A' has much greater function than people realize. It is the 'gate-keeper' (and filter) of the resonance that reaches the hand.

:yes: Precisely the idea of asking questions and attempting to influence others to ask the same questions. Understanding the WHY is the beginning of understanding the HOW.


Your opening question of your 2nd paragraph is a rhetorical.
Most novice/entry-level 'practitioners' will follow someone else's lead; monkey see, monkey do.
It's the entire basis for the 'apprenticeship'. Very few independent thinkers come here to ask questions.
For the most part, they are the ones who answer the questions. Then the world gets to determine who is right.
It's good that you put extended thought into the equation. Some would call it 'over-thinking' the problem.
As long as there is more than one solution, there is no such thing as over-thinking. It's called engineering.

Most newbies are incapable of independent thinking, IMO. Most don't approach the craft as a challenge, a bag
of tricks and riddles to be solved. What they see is the distorted dream of glamour and a chance to make money.
Both goals are pipe-dreams and not really what cue-building is about.

Couldn't agree more.
 
Robin, I was just writing my response to Joey when it didn't save for some reason. Interestingly enough, I was going to bring up part of the point you mentioned. The cue I had referenced in the other post had a larger diameter pin than a 3/8x10 used in a J/B. That reduces the end-grain surface area between handle and forearm (which has been a main concern in the A-joint throughout cue building history). All the gluing area is on the inner bore and on the OD of the pin. Is it the traditional way of doing things? No, but I also wouldn't call it a shortcut. It's just a more simple way of doing things. Shoot, even Kersenbrock mentions a doweling method with no screw at all in his manual... I think many of today's cue builders would cringe at the idea of a non-threaded joint! I enjoy these discussions as it's interesting how many ways there are to achieve a similar goal.

Well, I disagree. I think omitting the tenon is omitting a specific part that performs a specific function. The surface area of the flat face and screw is trivial compared with the surface area of the tenon and screw and like Joey, I don't trust metal to wood bonds with epoxy all that much.

And another thing, (I just had my 2nd coffee) I never did understand all the worry about end grains buzzing against each other in A-joints. If they are pre-glued, you will never get a dry joint, which I think is enemy number one in A-joints and in my experience the number one cause of buzzing A-joints.

Kersebrock was perhaps ahead of his time, but time has marched on and people have had another few decades to experiment with things.

I want a thread involved when I need to draw two pieces together firmly as well as lots of glue area to keep it there. And yes, that comes after trying to get away from it with just a super long tenon. Besides, it's a nice place for weight to live.

Robin Snyder
 
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The great thing is, ugly maple and oak rods are cheap.
Make some mock ups . Take notes then torture them.
I stuck mock-ups in the trunk of my car years ago.
 
something i do that i've never seen anyone else say they do,
kinda came up with it on my own,
is leave the cue spinning AFTER gluing the A-joint.
lathe in back gear turning about the speed of a hot dog rotisserie.

was concerned that the thinner west epoxy might "settle" unevenly if i didnt keep it moving for a few hours .
figured it cant hurt

If you have a big enough void, that is filled with a large enough volume of too thin epoxy that it has room to settle to one side away from another, man, you have more problems than spinning the cue will solve. Just use the Cab-O-Sil.and don't over tighten.
 
If you have a big enough void, that is filled with a large enough volume of too thin epoxy that it has room to settle to one side away from another, man, you have more problems than spinning the cue will solve. Just use the Cab-O-Sil.and don't over tighten.

LOL
i meant in the glue channels i cut around the tenon
 
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:yes: Precisely the idea of asking questions and attempting to influence others to ask the same questions. Understanding the WHY is the beginning of understanding the HOW.

I've pondered your response at least a day now, even slept on it.
My conclusion; you'd make a much better teacher than I would.
You asked the right question, got the response and now have, I'd guess, more than a couple of people thinking.
Very good move. Ever considered politics ? Lol
 
Here's a brain bender. A break/jump cue can have nothing but a 3/8-10 joint screw in the "A" joint, with no tenon/bore and no glue. They don't buzz, nor are they weak. Add a tenon/bore & some glue, and now you have to worry if it will buzz or perhaps fail in the future. If you never did anything but used a screw, it stays together just fine & is plenty strong with no buzzing. Why do we create a situation where strength, longevity, and noise are ever even a plausibility? Obviously break/jump cues prove that it's unnecessary, right? Or not?

Do we use a tenon/bore just because that's how everybody does it? Or did each one of us individually arrive at a similar conclusion after much trial & error in our own shops? Obviously there's merit to taking what somebody else has already figured out & continuing on with it or even developing it further. But at what point do we begin relying too much traditional methodology without really understanding why?

My point is that having a discussion about glue may be futile if we don't even know what the glue needs to do. I'm not 100% confident that any glue is the best, or even required at all. I'm not 100% confident that a tenon/bore is even required, or perhaps isn't even counter productive. Perhaps a simple stud with a dab of wood glue to lock the pieces is all that's needed, maybe even is the best. I think about crap like this all the time.
I glued some flat faced because of the things you mentioned and they buzzed. No buzz when dry, but buzzed when glued. Blew my mind then and I still do not know why.
 
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