Cuemaker quality standards.

Good point Bill,

Lamborghini, Ferrari, and Corvette all offer
similiar lousy return on investment.

Big name cues are not much different than the housing industry.
The entire premise is under the bigger fool theory. Unless you
are an industry insider, you are the bigger fool.

See how tanked most mortgage holding americans are in their
homes these days, and you get my point in reference to "investment"
The bankers got bonus checks, and the homeowners got screwed.

After all what is an investment, if it is not a gamble ?

So when it comes down to it, the strongest investments
would be in God, gold, guns, and ammunition.

Not sticks and stones.


i wouldn't b surprised if it takes a G SZAM to score a box of 357 mag ammo (or a basic "ray" gun) in the not to distant future

on topic: It does, as you alluded, come down to value. A poorly executed cue by a name/established maker (a gent in TX comes to mind) can still be flipped whereas a similiar example from a newbie + $20 may get you a lap dance at the shake joint
 
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I think part of the issue is that cues are made out of an unstable material (wood) subject to a lot of environmental effects which over time can shift in various ways......and no matter how good the cuemaker is I don't think this can be fully overcome.
 
Are different cuemakers held to different standards?

Why do some established cuemakers or even legandary makers get a pass for less than perfect work while some newbie gets raked over the coals?

I have seen really big name cuemakers get a pass for shoddy inlay work or puddles of filler around an inlay why do you feel that is?

Your question answers itself. Name, price, owner's pride...all conspire to give certain CM's a pass on shoddy work. I've been embroiled in one discussion years ago that ran dozens of pages and ended up ruffling everyone's feathers; I don't care to repeat that performance today.

However, I don't think standards can be subjective. Inlays should fit. Points should be tight at the base or touching. Veneers should be clean and even. Wraps should be flush.

Bad enough that so many cues leave shops w/o meeting these basic criteria, owners then take pictures of said cues, post them up on a cue forum, and honest opinions re said cues draw fire from all corners.

You want to know a true perfectionist cuemaker? Paul Fanelli. What a great loss to the cuemaking world.
 
I think part of the issue is that cues are made out of an unstable material (wood) subject to a lot of environmental effects which over time can shift in various ways......and no matter how good the cuemaker is I don't think this can be fully overcome.

Great point. When you mix wood, plastic, ivory, metal and glue then release it out in the wild sometimes shit happens. That said I have seen more than a few cues from some big big names that just make me scratch my head because a giant glue line is a giant glue and a crooked inlay is a crooked inlay.

There are maybe 6 or 7 makers I would spend over a $1000 on. All of them would be happy to fix any issues I had with a cue I bought from them.

When prices start getting into the nosebleed section its not even a cue anymore its a commodity.
 
not everyone buy a "brand name"....i guess only a few buy a "brand" product without consider quality factor..

every cuemaker start with zero point....no one already got a big reputation at the start of his/her career. So, my point is if a cuemaker at last got a big reputation...it is because his work, his product is good and most of people admire their product beyond their competitor...that's what how the price is settle.

Let's take an example....Eric Crisp is relative younger cuemaker....and he already got a big reputation on build a cue...His 1000$ new cue from him can easly sell 1100$ in secondary market....why?? it is because
1. He build a cue with playability over most of cuemaker in the world....and many people admit this
2. He put his own stlye of design on every of his cue....Micro ringworks, refreshing scallop design....he put a good looking wood on every cue his work.

Lucky for him ...it's seem that many people admire to what he did and BUMP he got a lot of order....his waiting list is grows ...and he can put the higher price with his product and STILL many of us want his cue.

on a customer point of view

Why, I and many of us as a customer want Sugartree beyond many of cuemaker product..

1.. i search for good product and many people put the name of Sugartree..( i believe, if this product is not good, then no body would mention this name, and Vice Versa)
2. If i buy this Product and somehow don't like it..i can easly sell with the same price when i bought it...

And Many of us..got the same thought as mine..

That's 2 Main Point How The Price is Settle....and how the cuemaker got a Reputation build...So, i guess is all not abouth hype...EVERY THING GOT A REASON
 
Reputation = $$$$

Once a "Name" reaches a certain hype point then it begins to be all about the name and less about the real quality, inside and out, of the piece.

Of course that is not always the case. There are craftsman that have both the name and the outstanding quality backing up that name.

But in a world where everyone is an "expert" and everyone can write an opinion piece that hypes the object they are describing into the stratosphere it becomes very difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.

And then we have the ultra-macro pictures that blow things up beyond what the eye can see. If you inspect something then it's nearly impossible to focus on tiny details for any length of time. So this becomes a problem as it's nearly impossible to be dead perfect at the macro-level. Should inlays be 100% perfect all the time?

Well to me this is part of the art of cue making and TO THE NAKED EYE the inlays should be flush and perfect. Not to the macro lens on the camera or the microscope.

Once I was visiting a legendary cue maker and he showed me an absolutely stunning cue. When I picked it up and began to examine it I saw lots of gaps that had been bridged by filler. The cue maker noticed me looking intently at these spots and without me having to say anything he said 'it's art John, meant to be viewed at arm's length'. I can see his point but I still believe in my own which is that part of the art of making a decorated cue is to blend all the parts seamlessly.

As fate would have it a few days later I was at another cue maker's place and he was working on a cue that had hundreds of tiny inlays in it. He would put in hours each day working under the magnifying glass putting these inlays in. There was a little pile of broken ones. The resulting cue was priced at 18k and I would challenge anyone to find a flaw in the inlays. The previously mentioned one was priced at 35k with inlays swimming in glue.

So to me the quality standards displayed are very individual. What sort of a "pass" people get is very dependent on their stature and the hype bubble that they are in, which may not be of their own making.

We could go back and forth on this for years and never reach an agreement. Art and Precision in cue making (and case making) is a never ending topic. I rarely send out a case that I am totally happy with. Ususally it's things that bother me that don't bother anyone else. I often tear cases apart in order to fix something I don't like. This is a big source of our slowness. My staff collectively holds their breath when I start looking at their work. And sometimes I slip up and send something out with a flaw that I missed.

On the other hand I have seen products from others that would never be allowed out of my shop. But those makers have loyal followers who claim that they make the best ever.

So it's not only the standards of the builders that vary it's the standards of the customers. Some have a good amount of experience and when they post their opinion it has weight, while others have very little experience and their opinion shouldn't carry much weight. Yet, in a world where one's pedigree is not on display with every utterance, opinions flow like water and dilute just the same.

On the good side we do have more access to information, cue makers who desire to can now stand up and speak for themselves as to why they feel the way they do it is good, with pictures and videos if they so desire. And in fact, some of them almost have to in order to pierce the reputation/hype bubble surrounding some of their competitors.

These days it's much harder to make your way on word of mouth alone. But it's a double edged sword because many new craftsmen overstate their abilities, overstate their experience and understanding of the craft, and overstate their capacity. So their quality lies balanced on top of all those variables with some people poised to knock them off the pedastal they put themselves on.

The bottom line is that if you are a new cue maker or new to the public display of your work on the internet you have to live in the world where your work is subject to intense scrutiny. Yes, it's unfair if you are doing immaculate work and Joe Old Cuemaker is doing sloppy work and getting higher praise. But that's the way the world works, older people who have made their bones get a pass. Younger people are the ones that have to raise the bar if they want to be the older ones who get a pass.

Someday cue makers will be creating cues using six axis cncs that hold exacto knives and carve out razor sharp inlays while the wood is stained using computer controled micro-bursts of color to infuse any wood with a vibrancy that's unimaginable today. When that happens some of you will still be creating your art on the 3rd axis substitution CNCs and hand-chiseling your inlays to sharp points. You will be grateful that the reputation you earned in your younger years carries you through against the next generation's stuff.

We expect each generation to be "better" than before.

But, all cue makers would do well to heed the comments made by Bill Schick at the Cuemaker's Roundtable in 2009. He said in essence what made George (and Gus) great was that they understood zero tolerance when fitting parts together. I agree. I feel that the art of the cue starts from the construction and extends outward to the decoration.

And that's for each man to figure out what he can live with sending out and for each customer to figure out what's worth paying for.
 
Are different cuemakers held to different standards?

Why do some established cuemakers or even legandary makers get a pass for less than perfect work while some newbie gets raked over the coals?

I have seen really big name cuemakers get a pass for shoddy inlay work or puddles of filler around an inlay why do you feel that is?

This is one of many questions that intigue people that have been in the industry a long time...

I don't get this either just like I don't get how people pay 2000 for a glorified merry widow from someone that has been making cues for less than 5 years...

It's the market, its how they market, and its called inflating the resaleability. How many times do you see someone saying they got the best cue ever, to see it for sale 3 days later?

I think that some cues need to be qualified on how they are made.. if a guy is hand finishing.. I give him a little more leeway than someone using CNC.

There are things in pool that make me shake my head...

JV
 
Some great stuff here.

If I were to phrase the question differently .

I have 3 big cue makers that I have seen shoddy work from but nobody calls them or the owner of the cue on it?

I never said anything to the cue maker or the owner becuse I actually would like to own a cue from each one of these guys some day. I should also state that I have seen perfect work from them as well. Does that mean that each and every cue should be judged as an individual and not just based on a makers reputation.
 
Some great stuff here.

If I were to phrase the question differently .

I have 3 big cue makers that I have seen shoddy work from but nobody calls them or the owner of the cue on it?

I never said anything to the cue maker or the owner becuse I actually would like to own a cue from each one of these guys some day. I should also state that I have seen perfect work from them as well. Does that mean that each and every cue should be judged as an individual and not just based on a makers reputation.

I have always held the belief that you are only as good as the last thing you put out.

I don't remember who said it but I read somewhere where a leather worker said that he doesn't send out work that he is afraid to see again and claim as his own.

As to judging the cue and calling out the flaws I liken it to someone showing off their kid. Unless you are really rude you don't tell someone that their kid is ugly unless they are asking you for your honest assessment of the kid's chances to be a model.

I think it's almost one of those things where you have to just let it pass and take it up privately with the cue maker when it's your turn.

On leatherworker.net we have a SHOW OFF section where people present their work and aren't looking for critique. We also have a critique section where people specifically ask to have their work inspected. When someone gets critical in the show-off section without invitation then they are generally admonished gently by the community.

As Cliffy said to me once regarding watch collectors, it's not worth it to explain to them the minutae of why they got swindled, just let them enjoy their purchase and when it comes time to sell the watch they will learn why they should have known better.

The only thing that really bothers me is when dealers and flippers know that a product isn't "the best" but they hype it up and tout is such. That gets on my nerves because often times it isn't true IF one were to do a real value checkpoint list going by a set of quality ratings.

But in the vague world of cue making there is no such quality list, nothing to put every cue against and let it be rated. So you are stuck with reputation and hype to serve 900 cue makers and hundreds of production brands.
 
Call me crazy but I want to be held to a higher standard. I would hate it if one day my reputation caused my customers to have a "emperor's new clothes" syndrome. If I screw up and put out less than I am capable of then I I deserve to be called out.
 
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Some cuemakers have been around before CNC was the main way to do inlays and before people started using magnification to inspect the cues. So they might know what the old standard was and just have not tightened up to the "Cue Inspectors" wishes.

No one has the right to demand any artist or craftsman to do artistic work to any particular tolerance. His craftsmanship is what it is and will bring the price the market is willing to pay. What they do have the right to do is not buy the cue if it is not up to their own standards provided it is not a custom order. Now it is advised that they look at some of the makers work and see what kind of things are important to the maker. For instance it is not right to order a cue from someone who specializes in butterflies and has never worried about holding them even and then start fussing because all the butterflies in your cue are not perfectly even. What if a maker wanted all his points to be uneven as he feels it looks better? That would then be his style and right to build them that way.

The first major thing that happened about 20 to 30 years ago was everyone wanted to look at the end of the points and make sure they were dead even. That became the cue inspectors policy. Then came the jewelers eye pieces and glue lines around the inlays were the next thing that was looked for. About half of the multi-thousand dollar cues I have built had no CNC inlay work done on them. And yes I can find more flaws in them than the CNC inlaid cues I have built. Yet I am equally happy with the results in them all, as I know that I did pretty good for the equipment that I used.
 
I think it is just like many other things, some can do no wrong in the eyes of others while the next guy may never pass the test. I've had a very nice ebony on ebony six point cue from Bryan Mordt with really nice, sharp inlay work for what I thought was a very reasonable price. I've seen other cue makers at multiple times that with round inlays you'd think would be sharp and yet people rant and rave about it.
 
for me

I'd rather have one of Edwin Reyes hand fitted cues than almost any CNC or pantagraphed cue made. Wouldn't sweat it if I found something less than perfect either. Nice to see that somebody can set up a CNC machine or trace a CNC made pattern with a pantagraph but it takes a whole 'nuther skill set to take a hand sharpened tool that was once a worn out hack saw blade and cut nice pockets. One skill set can be largely learned from a book, the other only from hard years of experience.

For those that don't know, I own an NC machine and have ran machines with DRO's on them for years, another handy "cheat".

Hu



Some cuemakers have been around before CNC was the main way to do inlays and before people started using magnification to inspect the cues. So they might know what the old standard was and just have not tightened up to the "Cue Inspectors" wishes.

No one has the right to demand any artist or craftsman to do artistic work to any particular tolerance. His craftsmanship is what it is and will bring the price the market is willing to pay. What they do have the right to do is not buy the cue if it is not up to their own standards provided it is not a custom order. Now it is advised that they look at some of the makers work and see what kind of things are important to the maker. For instance it is not right to order a cue from someone who specializes in butterflies and has never worried about holding them even and then start fussing because all the butterflies in your cue are not perfectly even. What if a maker wanted all his points to be uneven as he feels it looks better? That would then be his style and right to build them that way.

The first major thing that happened about 20 to 30 years ago was everyone wanted to look at the end of the points and make sure they were dead even. That became the cue inspectors policy. Then came the jewelers eye pieces and glue lines around the inlays were the next thing that was looked for. About half of the multi-thousand dollar cues I have built had no CNC inlay work done on them. And yes I can find more flaws in them than the CNC inlaid cues I have built. Yet I am equally happy with the results in them all, as I know that I did pretty good for the equipment that I used.
 
Now it is advised that they look at some of the makers work and see what kind of things are important to the maker. For instance it is not right to order a cue from someone who specializes in butterflies and has never worried about holding them even and then start fussing because all the butterflies in your cue are not perfectly even. What if a maker wanted all his points to be uneven as he feels it looks better? That would then be his style and right to build them that way.

If that were the case, this hypothetical maker should advertise his cues as such and let the market decide. Somewhere between unrealistic expectations and appallingly shoddy work lies the majority of reasonable cue makers and buyers.
 
I'd rather have one of Edwin Reyes hand fitted cues than almost any CNC or pantagraphed cue made. Wouldn't sweat it if I found something less than perfect either. Nice to see that somebody can set up a CNC machine or trace a CNC made pattern with a pantagraph but it takes a whole 'nuther skill set to take a hand sharpened tool that was once a worn out hack saw blade and cut nice pockets. One skill set can be largely learned from a book, the other only from hard years of experience.

For those that don't know, I own an NC machine and have ran machines with DRO's on them for years, another handy "cheat".

Hu

Well, I own a CNC laser cutter and I can tell you that you ain't learning anything from a book other than how to turn it on and set the power and speed. Everything else is trial and error, on every material you want to cut or engrave.

When you see something that we did that's laser engraved or laser cut then a lot of the time it's a result of many iterations and test pieces, many adjustments, a lot of file preparation and so on.

Some things are just easier to do by hand than they are on the CNC, when you factor in ALL the prep time.

Now when you consider the ability to repeat the work then of course CNC is going to be faster and better. But if you are working on some sort of cue where the pattern and inlay shapes are only going to be used one time then I would argue that doing it with the CNC can take longer than doing it by hand.

Ancient craftsmen who did inlays would often make dies to cut each inlay precisely the same. They would make another die to mark the pocket by tapping it into the wood. Then they would chisel out the pocket and fill it with glue and hand fit the inlay. Some were very good at this and did nice tight work while others were quite sloppy.

So the point is that in today's world there is no shortage of debate over the way something was made. In my shop a lot of the work is done by hand. Hand sewing, hand skiving, hand sanding, gluing, hand guidance using the sewing machine. If you think that it's easy to sew a perfectly straight line over a 30" distance using an industrial sewing machine then be my guest while I watch you screw it up for weeks until you start to get the feel of controlling the machine with your foot and knee while you maintain control of the piece with your hands.

But I don't deliberately allow anything out of my shop that isn't done as well as we can do it. I say as well as we can do it because we are not perfect either and I don't charge enough to throw away the pieces that are not dead nuts perfect. Louis Vuitton charges thousands for their bags. Their stitching is always PERFECT. Every stitch is 100% even and straight, every part is exactly in the right spot where it should be, every part of the bag is true and even. You can spend days in a Louis Vuitton shop looking for a flaw. And you can find them but they are extremely rare because they would have had to make it past dozens of inspections before being allowed onto the sales floor.

If you want to pay me $5000 for a plain jane case then I promise you to make one that is 100% flawless. My shop will be littered with several thousand dollars' worth of half-done pieces that didn't measure up.

In China as all of you know there are boundless amounts of counterfeits. What most of you don't know is that there are levels of counterfeits ranging from very bad to 100% indistinguishable from the real thing. If you know China and you understand all that goes into making a purse then you would know how incredibly hard it is to make a counterfeit bag that can be set beside an original and even the person who made the original would not be able to tell the difference easily. (he would need to tear it apart).

The point being that hand work has plenty of levels and sloppy work is sloppy work no matter whether it's done by hand or done using a computer guided tool. Getting a near flawless piece is a matter of dedication and knowledge and complete mastery of your craft. The tools used don't matter at all.

Al Stohlman started out doing leather decoration with tools he made from whatever was available to him. He did great work. Over the course of his life he designed and created a lot more tools that were mass produced. He then wrote books on how to use to those tools and since then many others have done the same with videos as well. Over the past 50 years we have seen some incredible leather art as a result of people having access to Al's tools (and others that have followed). But the ART part it doesn't come from the tools, it comes from the mind that guides the tools.

Right now some people use the computer to make some fantastic designs and then they tool those designs. Conversely you might have someone who draws a fantastic design freehand but their tooling is horrible.

The resulting product is or should be judged by it's finished state. If you knew nothing of how it was produced how would you feel about it?

I devised a way to use the laser to cut perfectly sharp points. I can cut parts and pockets and make perfectly sharp points using the laser. If I did that would they be any less value than someone who did them by hand? Not in my opinion.

And if we really want to go there then why don't we hold the decal cues in higher regard?

I sat and watched people putting on decal points for 10 minutes one day. These are water slide decals. Same as a lot of us used when we did models as kids, same as upper level hobbyists use to decorate their models today.

But consider this, these decal application workers sit there with the cue and they have literally only a few seconds per decal to get them in place before they start to dry out and break with the slightest touch. They have to do 4-8 of these per cue and get them all evenly spaced and evenly high, and they do it by EYE, nothing to guide them, no marks on the cue, no lines, no registrations. Just over and over and over cue after cue after cue day after day after day.

The people who do this job are very good at it, very steady hands, very quick. This is true handwork in decoration. So why don't decal cues get more "respect"? Especially when they are done right?

I think it boils down to bias. Everyone has their idea of how things "should be done", some people are "purists", some don't care, some are on the fence but everyone has made up their mind based on whatever reasoning they have, mostly without really knowing all that goes into making whatever it is that they are judging.

I can guarantee all of you that if I opened up my shop and showed EVERY step that we go through to make a case that most case makers would shake their heads and say, I ain't doing that.......

But the consumer doesn't know this. They see that someone is a "one-man shop" and grant a pass on the workmanship because it's "hand-made" with no real clue what hand-made even really means or what sort of jigs, templates and machines a person uses in their work.

So it's bias and general ignorance of the process. In some ways that works out to the good for some makers and to the bad for others. At the end of the day every person who is judging any object is guided first by their subjective feelings about it. Most cannot step away from their feelings and expectations and emotional investment to judge it objectively based on the merits.

And perhaps this too is simply part of being human. After all if we didn't invest a little bit of ourselves into the things we desire then why desire them?
 
Quite a Rant

Quite a rant there john with a generous amount of bs thrown in. There is still a hell of a difference between a technician and a craftsman. A technician can set up a NC machine to do almost anything, once set up a trained monkey can operate it. No need for a craftsman anywhere along the line. As we both know freehand art can be scanned and easily cut in 2D and 2.5D, 3D is possible but a little tougher. Production style work is still production style automated and semi-automated work even if you make only one copy. Custom work is custom work even if you make multiple similar pieces. Copies and counterfiets of of other people's work are just pale attempts by talentless people to make a buck off of other people's talent.

I have been a master technician in several different fields, the very best the people working with me had ever seen. Note that isn't the same as the best I had ever seen or worked behind. I am a damned good craftsman doing a handful of different things, I'm not a master craftsman. Although most people that know my work might argue the point I know the difference between a very skilled journeyman and a master.

You have made a career out of stealing other people's talent and ideas, bragging about it all the time on this forum. I suspect you never will understand what a master craftsman really is. All the cheats and slights in the world might turn out similar work but it just isn't the same thing.

Hu


Well, I own a CNC laser cutter and I can tell you that you ain't learning anything from a book other than how to turn it on and set the power and speed. Everything else is trial and error, on every material you want to cut or engrave.

When you see something that we did that's laser engraved or laser cut then a lot of the time it's a result of many iterations and test pieces, many adjustments, a lot of file preparation and so on.

Some things are just easier to do by hand than they are on the CNC, when you factor in ALL the prep time.

Now when you consider the ability to repeat the work then of course CNC is going to be faster and better. But if you are working on some sort of cue where the pattern and inlay shapes are only going to be used one time then I would argue that doing it with the CNC can take longer than doing it by hand.

Ancient craftsmen who did inlays would often make dies to cut each inlay precisely the same. They would make another die to mark the pocket by tapping it into the wood. Then they would chisel out the pocket and fill it with glue and hand fit the inlay. Some were very good at this and did nice tight work while others were quite sloppy.

So the point is that in today's world there is no shortage of debate over the way something was made. In my shop a lot of the work is done by hand. Hand sewing, hand skiving, hand sanding, gluing, hand guidance using the sewing machine. If you think that it's easy to sew a perfectly straight line over a 30" distance using an industrial sewing machine then be my guest while I watch you screw it up for weeks until you start to get the feel of controlling the machine with your foot and knee while you maintain control of the piece with your hands.

But I don't deliberately allow anything out of my shop that isn't done as well as we can do it. I say as well as we can do it because we are not perfect either and I don't charge enough to throw away the pieces that are not dead nuts perfect. Louis Vuitton charges thousands for their bags. Their stitching is always PERFECT. Every stitch is 100% even and straight, every part is exactly in the right spot where it should be, every part of the bag is true and even. You can spend days in a Louis Vuitton shop looking for a flaw. And you can find them but they are extremely rare because they would have had to make it past dozens of inspections before being allowed onto the sales floor.

If you want to pay me $5000 for a plain jane case then I promise you to make one that is 100% flawless. My shop will be littered with several thousand dollars' worth of half-done pieces that didn't measure up.

In China as all of you know there are boundless amounts of counterfeits. What most of you don't know is that there are levels of counterfeits ranging from very bad to 100% indistinguishable from the real thing. If you know China and you understand all that goes into making a purse then you would know how incredibly hard it is to make a counterfeit bag that can be set beside an original and even the person who made the original would not be able to tell the difference easily. (he would need to tear it apart).

The point being that hand work has plenty of levels and sloppy work is sloppy work no matter whether it's done by hand or done using a computer guided tool. Getting a near flawless piece is a matter of dedication and knowledge and complete mastery of your craft. The tools used don't matter at all.

Al Stohlman started out doing leather decoration with tools he made from whatever was available to him. He did great work. Over the course of his life he designed and created a lot more tools that were mass produced. He then wrote books on how to use to those tools and since then many others have done the same with videos as well. Over the past 50 years we have seen some incredible leather art as a result of people having access to Al's tools (and others that have followed). But the ART part it doesn't come from the tools, it comes from the mind that guides the tools.

Right now some people use the computer to make some fantastic designs and then they tool those designs. Conversely you might have someone who draws a fantastic design freehand but their tooling is horrible.

The resulting product is or should be judged by it's finished state. If you knew nothing of how it was produced how would you feel about it?

I devised a way to use the laser to cut perfectly sharp points. I can cut parts and pockets and make perfectly sharp points using the laser. If I did that would they be any less value than someone who did them by hand? Not in my opinion.

And if we really want to go there then why don't we hold the decal cues in higher regard?

I sat and watched people putting on decal points for 10 minutes one day. These are water slide decals. Same as a lot of us used when we did models as kids, same as upper level hobbyists use to decorate their models today.

But consider this, these decal application workers sit there with the cue and they have literally only a few seconds per decal to get them in place before they start to dry out and break with the slightest touch. They have to do 4-8 of these per cue and get them all evenly spaced and evenly high, and they do it by EYE, nothing to guide them, no marks on the cue, no lines, no registrations. Just over and over and over cue after cue after cue day after day after day.

The people who do this job are very good at it, very steady hands, very quick. This is true handwork in decoration. So why don't decal cues get more "respect"? Especially when they are done right?

I think it boils down to bias. Everyone has their idea of how things "should be done", some people are "purists", some don't care, some are on the fence but everyone has made up their mind based on whatever reasoning they have, mostly without really knowing all that goes into making whatever it is that they are judging.

I can guarantee all of you that if I opened up my shop and showed EVERY step that we go through to make a case that most case makers would shake their heads and say, I ain't doing that.......

But the consumer doesn't know this. They see that someone is a "one-man shop" and grant a pass on the workmanship because it's "hand-made" with no real clue what hand-made even really means or what sort of jigs, templates and machines a person uses in their work.

So it's bias and general ignorance of the process. In some ways that works out to the good for some makers and to the bad for others. At the end of the day every person who is judging any object is guided first by their subjective feelings about it. Most cannot step away from their feelings and expectations and emotional investment to judge it objectively based on the merits.

And perhaps this too is simply part of being human. After all if we didn't invest a little bit of ourselves into the things we desire then why desire them?
 
Quite a rant there john with a generous amount of bs thrown in. There is still a hell of a difference between a technician and a craftsman. A technician can set up a NC machine to do almost anything, once set up a trained monkey can operate it. No need for a craftsman anywhere along the line. As we both know freehand art can be scanned and easily cut in 2D and 2.5D, 3D is possible but a little tougher. Production style work is still production style automated and semi-automated work even if you make only one copy. Custom work is custom work even if you make multiple similar pieces. Copies and counterfiets of of other people's work are just pale attempts by talentless people to make a buck off of other people's talent.

I have been a master technician in several different fields, the very best the people working with me had ever seen. Note that isn't the same as the best I had ever seen or worked behind. I am a damned good craftsman doing a handful of different things, I'm not a master craftsman. Although most people that know my work might argue the point I know the difference between a very skilled journeyman and a master.

You have made a career out of stealing other people's talent and ideas, bragging about it all the time on this forum. I suspect you never will understand what a master craftsman really is. All the cheats and slights in the world might turn out similar work but it just isn't the same thing.

Hu

Gee, did you feel PERSONALLY attacked in some way? Look jerk, I wasn't attacking YOU I was discussing the points that have been brought up, one of which is YOUR assertion that hand cut inlay is better than computer cut inlays because of the NATURE of the process.

Yes of course a MACHINE can be set up to do a process and anyone can set the part and press the button and watch it do it's thing.

So what? I can train a person to cut perfect pockets and stand there and watch them do their thing.

Guess what, some days the person will have a bad day and not cut a perfect pocket. Some days the machine will have a bad day and not cut a perfect pocket.

That is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing the FINISHED product and why SOME people SEEM to get a pass for shoddy work while others do not.

You are such an ___________ and first class __________ that it's hard to understand how you can even get out of bed with a head the size that you have it. (per your claims of being the best they ever saw, which of course no one here can dispute)

You have made a career out of stealing other people's talent and ideas, bragging about it all the time on this forum. I suspect you never will understand what a master craftsman really is. All the cheats and slights in the world might turn out similar work but it just isn't the same thing.

#1 - where is your proof? Everything I have made is on display right here www.jbcases.com/casesbyname.html Why don't you SHOW US ALL what you think I have "stolen" from others and we can discuss it. Until then shut your mouth.

#2. You suspect? Why don't you enlighten us then as to what a mastercraftsman IS in your opinon and then we can compare notes as to whether I know what one is or not. By the way punk, I don't consider myself to be a mastercraftsman. I know a lot about leather work and I have invented a few techniques for putting leather pieces together that I haven't seen done before, but I am FAR FAR FAR away from being a master of the craft.

#3. Reminding you that AGAIN we are talking about the FINISHED product. So when speaking of the actual physical item, when we judge that item based on it's OWN merits then it's CLEAR to people who understand what goes into making that product what sort of effort is required. Thus WHEN you have a product that is a COPY of another product then IF that copy is as good as the original AND the original took a mastercraftsman to make it then it took a MASTERCRAFTSMAN to copy it. That was the point you waste of carbon. Not a debate on the morality of copying.

#4. You're a major waste of bandwidth. I doubt you could produce a quality fart much less anything of substance. You talk about all this stuff you claim to have done. Well you may have but it doesn't matter because you aren't putting anything on the BILLIARD market. You don't have any skin in the game so anything you have to say is hot air. People like me are in the market, our products have to pass scrutiny. So save your nonsense about how you labored for hours and weeks fretting over fly tracks on your auto body paint jobs. No one cares.

They care about learning about cues and why some cues cost a lot even though they have flaws. They care about learning the dynamics of the market and about flippers and dealers and hype and reputation and value.
 
I won't speak to shotty work, but what's funny to me is when you see certain NAME cue's in a basic 5-6 point cue. NOTHING special and seller wants 3k. Or my biggest pet pieve is these people that pay $1500 for a titlest conversion and then dog a not so big cue maker, and say he's over priced for a thing of beauty!

And I refuse to even get started on paying bookoo bucks for CNC vs. Traditional build techniques.

Bottom line is people are not so bright all the time and will way over pay for something one minute, then will look down their nose at a steal the next.

Such is life in the cue world...

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
 
M
I'd rather have one of Edwin Reyes hand fitted cues than almost any CNC or pantagraphed cue made. Wouldn't sweat it if I found something less than perfect either. Nice to see that somebody can set up a CNC machine or trace a CNC made pattern with a pantagraph but it takes a whole 'nuther skill set to take a hand sharpened tool that was once a worn out hack saw blade and cut nice pockets. One skill set can be largely learned from a book, the other only from hard years of experience.

For those that don't know, I own an NC machine and have ran machines with DRO's on them for years, another handy "cheat".

Hu

Just to further complicate things, I use a pantograph and have made plenty of templates by hand. I have access to cnc so I have made them on the cnc as well. I canpost pics of the process if you wish. I have worked in a job manufacturing precision small parts most of my career and I can say with out a doubt that it makes no differance if you use manual or cnc equipment that it takes a certain type of individual to be able to do very detail orientated work. This type of skill IMO applies to cue making and inlay work. Having precise tools just allows you to do work to a higher standard.
 
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