Cuemaking 101

[Sheldon]

Myself I used to sell Valley sp's I paid around $8.00 for. I would change the tips and fix the taper a bit in general improving the cues as best I could and sold them for around $50.00. They were well worth the money. I would bet I sold several thousand of those cues over those years. I remember on one trip I had maybe 80 cues in the car and sold them all in just 4 days. I would take them into a bar or pool room and sell one at a time as a used cue, like it is my cue and I want to sell it or a cue I won or something.

I would ask like $75. and would always get a low ball an offer of $30.00 to $50.00 for the cues which of course after a little negotiating I took considering what I had in the cue. If I was out for a week or two I would make $3000. or more off those cues, it was better then playing and easier.

It ended when for some reason they became hard to get. I could not get more the a dozen or two at a time and it took like 8 weeks to get them so it just died. Mike Massey turned me on to them, he made a lot of money on the road with the Valley sp's.

That's a great story. At least people got something for their $$, if they had simply been beaten playing pool, they would be out the $$ with nothing to show for it.
I got some unfinished blanks from valley once, they were great. WAY oversized, so you could true the points up pretty easily. Sadly, they no longer sell them.

 

[ShootingArts]

I didn't get morally offended

It is strange to me that nobody got morally offended when those cues from Canada were offered. I don't see any difference.

I didn't get morally offended, I just made a note that there were too many green veneers on the market and to be damned sure I didn't use anything resembling that. I figure the people on these cuemaker forums are big boys and can make their own decisions concerning what they buy.

The real issue is always how much of his own work did the cuemaker put in a stick? Changing the name only is at one extreme, taking a house stick or a butt and adding inlays, your joint, collars, and buttcap, maybe a wrap, is near the other extreme. If I have changed the things that I think make my sticks unique, I wouldn't hesitate to put my name on it. Of course I don't want my name on garbage so I am pretty careful with what I start with.

Hu

 

[cutter]

Maybe we should have different designations: "Cue assembler", Cue remaker", "Cue resigner". I use to wonder why some of the better known
"cuemakers" were so explicit that they made everything in their cues. Usually excluding the bumpers and pins. Now I know! I have no problem with people reselling anything, just kind of gripes me that some of them call themselves cuemakers. Or even the most abused name in the English language, "Master cuemaker." No offense meant to the real masters that are out there, but there is a whole less of you than most people think. With the advent of less expensive specialized cuemakering equipment and the the availability of cue tutorials. Being a cuemaker doesn't quite hold the awe that it use to. Jerry Olivier told me one time. That with all the available equipment, anyone could make a cue, what set you apart is design and execution. I agree. So I guess if someone wants to take a cheap sneaky and scuff off the name and resell it. Great, it's up to the buyer to beware. I just hope the name cuemaker isn't used.

 

[BrooklynJay]

(not so) hypothetical situation: someone is buying Players Sneaky Petes for $39-$59 each, replacing or sanding the buttcap (to get rid of Players logo), applying his pencilled signature between the points & clearing over the signature, then selling them for $300 and up as custom made SPs.

Most would find this practice highly unethical but ethics aside, is this the mark of a clever entrepreneur? Or are there less than legal aspects to this practice?

Just checking my moral compass.

From the little information to go on I'd say that this isn't legal or moral.

It really doesn't sound like this person is upgrading anything on this cue - just removing the name on it and passing it off as a custom and charging people 'custom' prices.

This person definitely should be 'outed' too.

 

[dzcues]

It really doesn't sound like this person is upgrading anything on this cue - just removing the name on it and passing it off as a custom and charging people 'custom' prices.

You are correct. He does NOTHING to the cue except remove the Players name & add his own. The buyers - usually first time cue buyers - are led to believe that these are custom made. Ironically, the same Players SPs are available where they play at the $39 - $59 prices. Go figure...

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Maybe we should have different designations: "Cue assembler", Cue remaker", "Cue resigner". I use to wonder why some of the better known
"cuemakers" were so explicit that they made everything in their cues. Usually excluding the bumpers and pins. Now I know! I have no problem with people reselling anything, just kind of gripes me that some of them call themselves cuemakers. Or even the most abused name in the English language, "Master cuemaker." No offense meant to the real masters that are out there, but there is a whole less of you than most people think. With the advent of less expensive specialized cuemakering equipment and the the availability of cue tutorials. Being a cuemaker doesn't quite hold the awe that it use to. Jerry Olivier told me one time. That with all the available equipment, anyone could make a cue, what set you apart is design and execution. I agree. So I guess if someone wants to take a cheap sneaky and scuff off the name and resell it. Great, it's up to the buyer to beware. I just hope the name cuemaker isn't used.

This is not the 1st time this topic has come up. Since George Balabushka never used a pointed forearm, that he didn't buy from someone else, what name do we put on him. Is he the worlds most revered cue assembler?...JER

 

[PetreeCues]

Im sorry, To me this sounds like hustling. I want to think that cuemakers build cues because they love the art of craftmanship, not to make a quick buck. These are the kind of things that keep people skeptical. Buyer beweare!!

Yeah... but if ANYONE makes a dollar selling you ANYTHING, you think they are THIEVES.

 

[classiccues]

It's almost private labeling...

Just more work involved. You would be surprised at exactly how much private labeling goes on. JC Penny used to sell TV's that were made by GE, food companies do it all the time.

Guess it depends how close it is to what you do to how much it bothers you. Pool Table Magic has sneaky petes that have Pool Table Magic stamped in like a MFG, doesn't mean we make them. Its just a nice little touch when selling them.

JV

 

[MVPCues]

Just more work involved. You would be surprised at exactly how much private labeling goes on. JC Penny used to sell TV's that were made by GE, food companies do it all the time.

Guess it depends how close it is to what you do to how much it bothers you. Pool Table Magic has sneaky petes that have Pool Table Magic stamped in like a MFG, doesn't mean we make them. Its just a nice little touch when selling them.

JV

Do you make any cues? Do you profess to be a cuemaker? Are you selling the sneaky petes 6 times what they sell for under another label and advertise them as custom sneaky petes?

I assume "pool table magic" is a supply/gaming store that sells tables, bar stools, cues, balls, etc. If pool table magic advertised they also make custom tables, and you went out and bought $500 dollar cheap tables, scratched off the name and added yours and sold them for $3,000 as a custom "pool table magic" table... then you have a real comparison.
Kelly

 

[classiccues]

Do you make any cues? Do you profess to be a cuemaker? Are you selling the sneaky petes 6 times what they sell for under another label and advertise them as custom sneaky petes?

I assume "pool table magic" is a supply/gaming store that sells tables, bar stools, cues, balls, etc. If pool table magic advertised they also make custom tables, and you went out and bought $500 dollar cheap tables, scratched off the name and added yours and sold them for $3,000 as a custom "pool table magic" table... then you have a real comparison.
Kelly

Kelly,
No but doing what we do, it could be very well construed to be the case. Again, he is probably better off getting a company to make him his own, its no big deal. Most companies will put the label and faux signature on if he needs it that bad.
Also I think you need to know the name of the guy. I am not saying right / wrong whatever, I just think its close to private labeling, just leaving out a step.

But what if the guy is reworking the shafts/ferrules, or if he is making them new? Now you have something that is very close to what ALOT of the other cuemakers that do dufferin conversions do.

JV

 

[Mystick Cue Fan]

Maybe we should have different designations: "Cue assembler", Cue remaker", "Cue resigner". I use to wonder why some of the better known
"cuemakers" were so explicit that they made everything in their cues. Usually excluding the bumpers and pins. Now I know! I have no problem with people reselling anything, just kind of gripes me that some of them call themselves cuemakers. Or even the most abused name in the English language, "Master cuemaker." No offense meant to the real masters that are out there, but there is a whole less of you than most people think. With the advent of less expensive specialized cuemakering equipment and the the availability of cue tutorials. Being a cuemaker doesn't quite hold the awe that it use to. Jerry Olivier told me one time. That with all the available equipment, anyone could make a cue, what set you apart is design and execution. I agree. So I guess if someone wants to take a cheap sneaky and scuff off the name and resell it. Great, it's up to the buyer to beware. I just hope the name cuemaker isn't used.

Jerry Olivier would be the guy to ask. I've never seen him use anything but his own blanks......

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=50192&highlight=olivier

He's a good cuemaker and all, but he's out there to make money as well.

Tony

 

[cuetrip]

I know one cue maker whose name would be recognizable to anyone here who was buying cues from K-mart (I swear to God) about $20.00. They had real spliced points and he used them as blanks that he made into cues people paid many hundreds of dollars.
.

So who is it??
I've been trying to figure out whether or not it would be appropriate to ask who this is/was and I can't come up with any reasons not to.
I can't be the only one curious about this.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[Cue Crazy]

It is strange to me that nobody got morally offended when those cues from Canada were offered. I don't see any difference.

I can't speak for everyone, but some of the people that bought these did not buy the ones pictured in Your post, What was purchased for some was no different then a fullsplice sneaky blank except for the veneers. No Pin, No finish, no collar, etc. Maybe just me, but I Myself see a big difference in building a cue from that sort of blank, and scratching someones name out to add their own with no other modifications done. I'm not defending Duc, because That's another story altogether that I'd rather not get into.

I believe I have seen the question asked of you before, If you make all of your own fullsplice sneaky blanks or purchase some of them, but not sure If I ever saw Your answer. I know for a fact that for many It's simply not cost effective, even though they are able to build their own cues from scratch also, and could setup for the sp's with alittle time and effort, but only a small amount of makers actually build their own SP blanks that I'm aware of. You would be putting down alot of fine makers over the years If you were to put them in the same catagory. Some of which I'm sure You looked up to Yourself at one time.

I'm not trying to be disrespectfull here at all, so please don't take offense. I just don't think everyone would fall in the same catagory as someone that simply scratches out a name on a fully assembled cue to replace with their own. But It's just a opinion, same as Yours, and I'm sure not everyone would feel the same as I would on the subject.

Greg C

 

[macguy]

So who is it??
I've been trying to figure out whether or not it would be appropriate to ask who this is/was and I can't come up with any reasons not to.
I can't be the only one curious about this.
Thanks,
Rob

He is not a renown cue maker but his name would be recognized. The cues by the way were the Mizerak cue that were being sold some years back. They did look nice, the real fear would be the seasoning of the woods. Hay, Balabushka made cues from Brunswick house cues. I would have no reason to say his name, I was just making a point as to what some have done. Another guy used to redo import cues and make custom shafts new wraps refinish and sell them as custom cues. Steve Cook played with one of his import redo's for years.

 

[RiverCity]

There is a difference in who the cuemaker is and how its being sold.
If its someone who is just figuring out how to run a lathe or spray some clear..... its ok as long as they are HONEST about what they are doing. If it is someone who has a "name" and is doing it and not saying anything about it..... its a bit shady. But if there is dishonesty involved on anyones part about where the blanks came from...... its immoral and a sleaze bag thing to do.
I dont have a problem with someone assembling cues from parts someone else blanked out. But if they try to take credit for those blanks..... thats a different story.
I recently picked up a conversion from a big name maker, and Im still trying to figure out why the hell he chose such a poor quality blank to start with. And Ive talked to other people who have said the same thing when it comes to certain makers and conversion type cues. But they still command top dollar for the cuemakers name.
So which is worse, a hack re-signing import cues and bumping up the price or a respected cuemaker using shoddy blanks and charging big money?
Chuck

 

[Cue Crazy]

He is not a renown cue maker but his name would be recognized. The cues by the way were the Mizerak cue that were being sold some years back. They did look nice, the real fear would be the seasoning of the woods. Hay, Balabushka made cues from Brunswick house cues. I would have no reason to say his name, I was just making a point as to what some have done. Another guy used to redo import cues and make custom shafts new wraps refinish and sell them as custom cues. Steve Cook played with one of his import redo's for years.

I had one of those cues from Kmart Back then LOL, could'nt beat the price. 5/16-18 pin, so I had about 5 extra shafts for It, and was'nt worried about beating it all up in the bar tournaments. Made a great beater cue for little money.

 

[cuemaker03]

DZ are you going to tell us who the guy is or not?

 

[dzcues]

DZ are you going to tell us who the guy is or not?

No. You've never heard of him. He's a local tip repairman that is branching out, looking for another way to make a fast buck. He's a player on one of the area's stronger teams & for some reason, that gives him credibility as a "cuemaker" to some of the beginners around here.

In reply to those who see no difference in what he does and someone who converts a bar cue - I guess it's a matter of degree. But a pretty extreme degree...

I myself buy oversize SP blanks from another source. But I make my own shafts, buttcaps, trim rings and ferrules. I machine the butt & the shaft to the size & taper I want. I install the joint, ferrule, tip, buttcap, trim rings, etc. Basically, I buy rough components in bulk, then machine & assemble everything to arrive at a finished product.

He takes a finished product & removes identifying features. He signs it and that's it. The most I've seen him do, as far as modifying the cue in any way, is to install a contrasting wooden trim ring above a new buttcap & he has attempted to install a Uni-Loc QR joint or two. From what I've heard, they haven't worked out too well. One cue broke at the joint within 2 weeks (a $340 SP) and the customer was told "too bad".

I didn't expect this thread to grow like it did. I just get frustrated when his customers come to me to fix his stuff & expect ME to guarantee everything. They can't take it back to him because he is so limited in what he can do. And they learn (too late) that his fixes are often worse than the original problem.

Case in point: he convinced the owner of a very nice 20 yr old Joss West cue that both shafts needed the ivory ferrules replaced even though one of the shafts was barely used. I don't know if it was really necessary and neither did the cue's owner but the "repairman" told him he would fix him up. Well, the JW tenons were threaded 5/16-14 - not 5/16-18 - but this guy didn't know the difference so he installed Mueller's cheapest threaded ferrule on both shafts, stripping the threads on the tenon in the process. No problem, plenty of epoxy should fix that, right? The trouble was, after a week or so, the ferrule on his favorite shaft started coming loose several times during a session. Mr Repairman suggested just holding the cue upright, tip end down, and dropping it several times against the floor. This would drive the ferrule back up flush against the shoulder. Problem solved!

Anyway, sorry for the long post but it's late (or early...I don't even know at this point) and I got off on a rant. I debated just deleting this after I got it off my chest but I'm tired of biting my tongue. I'll probably hear about it locally but the forum members can rest assured that this person is unknown to them.

PS to Bill Stroud: I think it was one of your cues to which I referred. It was either yours or Tim Scruggs. I apologize if I got it wrong.

 

[RiverCity]

He's a local tip repairman that is branching out, looking for another way to make a fast buck. He's a player on one of the area's stronger teams & for some reason, that gives him credibility as a "cuemaker" to some of the beginners around here.

Was Jeff Duke wasnt it Bob????? Just kidding.
Chuck

 

[cubswin]

In reply to those who see no difference in what he does and someone who converts a bar cue - I guess it's a matter of degree. But a pretty extreme degree...

I myself buy oversize SP blanks from another source. But I make my own shafts, buttcaps, trim rings and ferrules. I machine the butt & the shaft to the size & taper I want. I install the joint, ferrule, tip, buttcap, trim rings, etc. Basically, I buy rough components in bulk, then machine & assemble everything to arrive at a finished product.

Personally have no problem with cuemakers that do this. You have taken material and customized it at this point. Making a custom sneaky.

He takes a finished product & removes identifying features. He signs it and that's it.

Yes, he's customized it by changing the name. Thats a big difference that using a oversized blank, turning it down to the dia that you like, adding one of your shafts, adding collars, changing out the ferrule and tip, adding rings and a new buttcap. Changing the name is dishonest, and probably against the law in some states.