Curious about bartering

BTW, Eric hits it spot on.

That's the answer I was hoping to get. I just couldn't see a developer with a shred of decency f$&king a cuemaker that way. Especially someone as amazing as Eric.

I feel the same way. I BUY my cues and if I trade something, I'll trade a cue for a cue. Money talks, bullshit walks.

I've said it before. When I'm ready for a Sugartree, I'll let Eric know my budget and tell him to make me something he'd be happy with. No caveats, no micromanaging, no bs.

I wish my clients were like that. Usually it's the micromanagement that f&$ks up a good design. Whether it be a cue, software, or website.

These guys are artists. I see lots of clients on this board ask for retarded shit that's way out of a cuemaker's usual comfort zone. It's like all they care about is his name. Then they turn around and flip the 'unique' cue. Nothing against flippers, they have to eat too.

Having 'fixed' things that crappy designers/developers have done. I'd argue the only thing a cuemaker needs is Facebook (free - make sure it's open to the public), flickr (free), gmail (free), and YouTube (free). If you MUST have a blog, Blogspot works wonders.

F&$k the rest. And this is coming from someone (and his wife) who make their LIVING writing web software.
 
Josh, thanks for sticking up for me, but it wasn't necessary.

I have a thick skin.

Maybe this thread will stop others from falling into this dumbass trap.

There are some unscrupulous cuemakers (and flippers) out there, but they don't survive on AZ long. That's why I love it here.

Thanks all.
 
Trades

I traded a gun for a cue before too. That was weird, I kept wondering about the guy's motives, but worked out well for both of us. Gotta love AZ. I am constantly amazed by the quality of folks on this site.

Before AZ I always either bought my cues cash, won them, or took them in lieu of gambling debt. I've only kept two from that previous life, and those two aren't worth shit to anyone but me.

Maybe I'll give them away for a website…. Joking aside, I don't gamble anymore, so now it's cash that I trade for cues.
 
Buster8001 said:
Yeah, like I said, he must have struck a chord.

You posted your experience and opinion; good post. You didn't belittle the man like most.

Everyone just needs to keep in mind; just like you, time is money to an "IT guy" as well. Just like you, we get paid for our craft. The tools are just different. True web application design/building takes more the just "hours". Yet it is true any idiot can throw together a straight HTML web site using note pad and Google. Ask Bob Dzuricky now long it took him to build his own site.

I wont comment on the shady character; but I will point out, there are also shady cue makers (please don't take this a pointing to Eric).

Josh
Click to expand...

No offense taken at all. Every group has it's good as well as it's bad. For me, the situation is a "once bitten, twice shy" kind of thing. I have nothing against IT guys at all. I know it's a skill & like any other skill, you'll have those who really know their stuff & are great at it, and then you have your pretenders who want to be known as the guys that know something. No different with cues. I meant no disrespect toward IT guys in general, just pointed out that not everybody who says they are an IT guy is actually worthy of the task. Just like not everybody who calls themselves a cue maker is worthy of the task. When it comes down to the nitty gritty, it's character that matters. All BS comes out in the wash sooner or later.
 
The problem with web development is the proliferation of CMS makes it easy for anyone that can follow a few click here and click over there and here again steps and have a simple we site with a blog, gallery, simple login script. There are a lot of people that think since they can do that and have a general knowledge of photoshop that they are now web designers. Unfortunately there are a lot of people that have "bit" by these people and it leaves a bad taste in their mouths when they deal with start to deal with a true developer who knows the ins and outs of programming. That is why i stay away from freelance jobs and stick with my regular programming job.
 
Many years ago I got a call from a Realtor in Roseville, CA he needed someone to photograph a $750.000.00 property for a sales brochure. I asked where he got my name, and he mention someone gave him my card, and said I was good.

I told the guy up front my specialty was not ARCHITECTURAL PHOTOGRAPHY, but maybe I could help him out. We talked about the brochure, and the photos were to be small so I could pull off the job with 35 mm equipment.

He gave me the address of the property, and I said I would drive out that night, look over the job, and give him a call in the a.m. with a price.

He told me what he want photographed inside & out, and I went out to the property armed with compass and notes.

In the a.m. I called the realtor back, and advise him of the price of the job, and supplies. Explaining I need to be on site about 6 hours because of when the sun rose and started hitting the property. Explain some pre work, and clean up that I would do before I started shooting, to make great photos.

He replied with you price is way too high, and the guy he normally used charge him only so much per hour.

I asked why he did not call the regular guy, and he replied he had tried and tried, but got no call back.

I told him my price was my price. He said nothing and I hung up. The phone rings in a minute, and it is mister chepo realtor, and he want to negotiate my price.

I say I have an idea for a trade off, or exchange of services. I will do his job for FREE, and in return in a year or when I plan to sell my home, he will list my home, and work the the listing as the seller agent for FREE as his part of the trade off.

His reply is he is a professional, and more BS, and my reply is to shoot his own pictures, or wait for his regular guy to call back.
 
Bartering

It's always been my opinion that people who cannot command $$$ for their work are those who want to barter. This is why I've always stayed away from them. I'm always looking for talented developers to hire as well.

I've been seeing so much of it lately that I wondered if it was because of some other reason, so I asked in this forum if cuemakers were happy with them.

Because I KNOW of the quality of the cuemakers in here, I figured I could get a bead on the quality of the designers/developers offering to barter their services.

If these designers were really good, and still willing to honestly trade years of service for a quality cue, than maybe I was charging too much. Lately I've turned away a lot of freelance to spend more time with my family, but I couldn't imagine my prices being too high as I am still turning away work. I always shy from folks offering me a percentage of whatever for a website. I got burned about 8 years ago giving away 40k of work for a 10% share. I got the share for a few years, but it dried up and I never recouped 1/10 of what I put into it. Not worth suing over.

The work I've seen some of these guys do has been REALLY BAD. I used way more colorful rhetoric in my OP, but it is just slapping a generic to ugly theme on some horribly configured, spam-magnet software.

Ugly sites exist for multiple reasons, not all of them are the designer's fault. Look at the $30,000+ restaurant sites out there for top chefs. They're total crap. These chefs use top design firms, but hog-tie them requiring flash, music, "a sense of mystery", and other preconceptions of what a "good' website should be.

I thought maybe the economy was so bad in other parts of the country that these guys were good guys out of work. I should have stuck with my instincts and just considered them the scammer leaches they are.

These insects belittle the work of good honest designers/developers, but the good ones only work for $$$.

I haven't even done any pro-bono work in a few years—again too busy and trying to spend more time with my family.

Either way, as long as I have my day job and skills, I will continue to not understand these scammers.

A good website can attract business. It can provide customers a venue for communication. It can increase visibility. It can provide a virtual storefront. From what I've seen on AZ, no-one needs that here. AZ, gMail, Twitter, Youtube, Facebook, Flickr, and blogspot are all a cuemaker needs to keep his clients informed and to attract new ones. All those services are free and butt-ass stupid to use. If you need help using them, ask here. All of us would be happy to show you for free, with nothing in return ever. That's what this forum is all about.

PLEASE, don't fall for this SCAM! Real designers work for cash. Real developers work for cash. Real designer/developers BUY cues for CASH.
 
Rrussotwo,

Shoot me a pm. We can vent together in private. No sense in beating dead horse at this point. Thanks.

David
 
Actually, one of my better friends is doing a website for me in trade. His prices are usually higher than what's been quoted and he stays busy. It's a good thing he's computer suave because I can't even get a picture to post on here.
 
Friends

Lexicologist71 said:
Actually, one of my better friends is doing a website for me in trade. His prices are usually higher than what's been quoted and he stays busy. It's a good thing he's computer suave because I can't even get a picture to post on here.
Click to expand...

Friends don't count. I've done thousands of dollars of work for friends for free. I'm in the middle of a 100+ hour plus photo restoration project and committed to two websites for free for friends.

I'm done beating this horse….
 
1. Bartering is not a bad thing. The creator of the famous Sheridan style of tooling Don King is famous for telling people they couldn't buy his tools but they could trade for them. Bartering is older than money. But the trade has to be somewhat equal.

2. Websites are a bad idea for anyone who doesn't understand how to maintain them. If the intention is simply to have a "place" on the web where you can be found then that can be arranged in 30 minutes tops from start to finish and look decent. If one wants to have a gallery to post pictures and keep the world up to date every time a piece of wood is cut then there are FREE solutions to make that happen and look good.

Hostgator offers more FREE solutions to creating websites than any person could possibly ever use. So you can get as far into it as you like. www.hostgator.com

3. It's not about the creation it's about the maintenance. - Ever see a beautiful building with nice fountains that are empty and cracking with litter in it? That's because when the architects and builders were done no one planned for the long term upkeep. So when a designer makes a site that looks pretty the fact is that unless someone is going to maintain it then it is better off not being built. Whenever you need a menu change then you have to depend on someone else to do it. Better to have a simple site using tools you know how to handle.

I have traded for web work. But I was also quite hands-on about what I wanted done and what I didn't want done. I am happy with the deal but I retained all control of my site and have it set up so that myself, my wife and our people can easily make changes to keep it current. The web designer did only what I told him to do and for that he did a good job. My site is primitive and I like it that way. It gets the information across to the customer and serves as a resource for me to easily refer to. Everything is fairly easy to get to. The reason that this is this way is because I designed it to be this way.

I tried all the CMS systems. I have created CMS (Content Management Systems) from scratch, which are still in use on some sites I made. I created a ****ing awesome one for Instroke that they discontinued because the new owners didn't want to pay for maintenance. No seriously, it was awesome.

But it suffered from what ALL these types of solutions suffer from. Complication.

The web was created to be a simple and universal way to communicate. An easy way to go find information. Every extra layer means that people need more software, more permissions, more plugins, more special viewers, and so on. Keep it simple with simple and open-source tools. The easier the better.

I use HostGator. www.hostgator.com My blog is free, my image gallery is free, my forums (that are private) are free. I host thousands of images on my account. I host about a dozen websites on my account for a total of $14.95 a month. And even that is high because I CHOSE to have a few extra features. You can do it for $7 a month.

So what did I barter for?

I paid the web designer to make me a nice logo and a drop down navigation bar. I had him integrate this into the blog and image gallery. I could have done these things myself but I didn't want to spend the time to do them. Now they are done and those parts of my site are consistent with the main site.

So barter if you want to but understand what is available for free and what you can and will do on your own.
 
Hi JB,

Your cases are awesome! Just visited your site and I was very impressed with the workmanship and design.

I will let people know at my pool hall. I get inquiries for high end case now and then.

Keep up the great work,

Rick G
 
qbilder said:
I never see cue makers asking to trade cues for web-sites, only IT guys asking if anybody will trade. If cue makers charged $35-$200/hr. then nobody could afford a cue. If you IT guys make that much money, then quit haggling over a trade & just buy the cue outright. Cue makers want to be paid for their work in currency that pays their bills & buys them food. IMO, IT guys offer up some of their spare time to trade for a cue maker's professional work. Worse yet, yall bring up the topic in an open forum, and then can't understand why cue makers answer with a condescending tone?

I have had NUMEROUS IT guys ask me to trade cues for a site. I always say no. Finally, one guy tells me that he only wants to build me one so he can show his skills, as an advertisement of sorts. I still say no but he nags & nags & nags. I finally relent. Next thing I know, he's having troubles with naming the site because somebody had already bought the domain name & was sitting on it. Finally get that worked out & the site is completed. Then he calls me to tell me how much I gotta pay for web space. Keep in mind I never wanted a web site & never wanted any advertising. Now i'm having to pay yearly fees to have it. It's not expensive, so ok. Still annoying. Got the site that was supposed to be just a gallery with a blog, but now it has a contact button where messages from the site go to my personal email :angry: Very f*cking annoying!!!! Now after all the BS I went through over this site, i'm now being bombarded by emails from folks I have no clue who they are, and the blog is interactive so it's getting bombarded with spam. A friend of mine calls me up to ask how much I paid for the site & I tell him nothing. He says that's good because it's a cheap, generic site that I could have tossed together myself for free. He then tells me that if I wanted a 'real' site, that he could help me out with it. He was actually being a friend & being honest. I believe him. He's a super successful internet business guru & knows web-sites. So that kinda aggravated me a bit more with the guy who built the site. But wait, there's more!!!! The dude calls me up to ask how his cue is coming along, and how much he owes. I tell him when I think I might be able to get to it & how much it'll be. He then reminds me of the web-site that he worked so diligently on & had the balls to tell me how much he charges for sites like that, insinuating that it will cost me more than the cue is worth if I actually make him pay for a cue. So this begging me to build a site to advertise his skill has now turned in to trying to strong arm me into GIVING him a cue. Seriously.

I read between the lines & told him ok, we'll work it out when the cue is done. That time, I think he realizes by now, is never going to come. The only thing I hate more than being lied to & scammed is somebody actually trying to strong arm me into doing something I didn't agree to. I found out soon after all of this that he had also screwed another cue maker, under different circumstances but still utilizing dishonest tactics to get his way. I told him then to do what it took to make things right. He swore it was all a misunderstanding & he never intended wrong, that he'd make it right. Never happened, but he told me how much he did to correct it & how he would stop the business he piggy backed off of this other cue maker. That never happened, either. He just lied over & over. I guess he thinks we cue makers aren't friends & don't communicate.

Anyway, I washed my hands with the guy. I don't need that crap. But i'm still stuck with this BS web-site that gets spammed all the time & overloads my email with crap I don't want or need. So naturally my opinion on trading web-sites for cues is not a great one. I never even made that deal and somebody tried to force it on me after the fact. It's not worth it. I'm sure a good IT guy is worth what he gets paid. He should be able to afford a cue. If a cue maker approaches an IT guy wanting to trade, then that's another story. But I have yet to see that happen. All I see is cue makers being exploited with BS cheap sites for their hard work. It takes months or years to build a good cue. It takes hours to build a web-site. If bartering is going to be an option then it has to be fair & not weighed by market value of each skill. If it is then cue makers always lose. There's no lack of computer nerds & a good site can be had easy for any builder seriously considering a site. The thread wanted opinions & this is mine. I refrained from posting for a while but once I seen the confusion over the animosity cue makers have towards IT guys trying to trade cues for sites, I figured i'd share my experience & give an example of why we don't want to trade cues for sites. We always get screwed.
Click to expand...
Why not "out" the scammer?

Some of us know exactly who it is, but withholding names protects the guilty party and allows other cue makers & cue buyers to be victimized.
 
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qbilder said:
I never see cue makers asking to trade cues for web-sites, only IT guys asking if anybody will trade. If cue makers charged $35-$200/hr. then nobody could afford a cue. If you IT guys make that much money, then quit haggling over a trade & just buy the cue outright. Cue makers want to be paid for their work in currency that pays their bills & buys them food. IMO, IT guys offer up some of their spare time to trade for a cue maker's professional work. Worse yet, yall bring up the topic in an open forum, and then can't understand why cue makers answer with a condescending tone?

I have had NUMEROUS IT guys ask me to trade cues for a site. I always say no. Finally, one guy tells me that he only wants to build me one so he can show his skills, as an advertisement of sorts. I still say no but he nags & nags & nags. I finally relent. Next thing I know, he's having troubles with naming the site because somebody had already bought the domain name & was sitting on it. Finally get that worked out & the site is completed. Then he calls me to tell me how much I gotta pay for web space. Keep in mind I never wanted a web site & never wanted any advertising. Now i'm having to pay yearly fees to have it. It's not expensive, so ok. Still annoying. Got the site that was supposed to be just a gallery with a blog, but now it has a contact button where messages from the site go to my personal email :angry: Very f*cking annoying!!!! Now after all the BS I went through over this site, i'm now being bombarded by emails from folks I have no clue who they are, and the blog is interactive so it's getting bombarded with spam. A friend of mine calls me up to ask how much I paid for the site & I tell him nothing. He says that's good because it's a cheap, generic site that I could have tossed together myself for free. He then tells me that if I wanted a 'real' site, that he could help me out with it. He was actually being a friend & being honest. I believe him. He's a super successful internet business guru & knows web-sites. So that kinda aggravated me a bit more with the guy who built the site. But wait, there's more!!!! The dude calls me up to ask how his cue is coming along, and how much he owes. I tell him when I think I might be able to get to it & how much it'll be. He then reminds me of the web-site that he worked so diligently on & had the balls to tell me how much he charges for sites like that, insinuating that it will cost me more than the cue is worth if I actually make him pay for a cue. So this begging me to build a site to advertise his skill has now turned in to trying to strong arm me into GIVING him a cue. Seriously.

I read between the lines & told him ok, we'll work it out when the cue is done. That time, I think he realizes by now, is never going to come. The only thing I hate more than being lied to & scammed is somebody actually trying to strong arm me into doing something I didn't agree to. I found out soon after all of this that he had also screwed another cue maker, under different circumstances but still utilizing dishonest tactics to get his way. I told him then to do what it took to make things right. He swore it was all a misunderstanding & he never intended wrong, that he'd make it right. Never happened, but he told me how much he did to correct it & how he would stop the business he piggy backed off of this other cue maker. That never happened, either. He just lied over & over. I guess he thinks we cue makers aren't friends & don't communicate.

Anyway, I washed my hands with the guy. I don't need that crap. But i'm still stuck with this BS web-site that gets spammed all the time & overloads my email with crap I don't want or need. So naturally my opinion on trading web-sites for cues is not a great one. I never even made that deal and somebody tried to force it on me after the fact. It's not worth it. I'm sure a good IT guy is worth what he gets paid. He should be able to afford a cue. If a cue maker approaches an IT guy wanting to trade, then that's another story. But I have yet to see that happen. All I see is cue makers being exploited with BS cheap sites for their hard work. It takes months or years to build a good cue. It takes hours to build a web-site. If bartering is going to be an option then it has to be fair & not weighed by market value of each skill. If it is then cue makers always lose. There's no lack of computer nerds & a good site can be had easy for any builder seriously considering a site. The thread wanted opinions & this is mine. I refrained from posting for a while but once I seen the confusion over the animosity cue makers have towards IT guys trying to trade cues for sites, I figured i'd share my experience & give an example of why we don't want to trade cues for sites. We always get screwed.
Click to expand...



WOW!!!!!!! what a hassle. i think i've heard something like this before. sounds like you gotta get this site taken down. if it looks as bad as you say and jams up your email it's more trouble than it's worth
 
I've been in the development industry for quite a while now, and the only people pulling $200 an hour are agencies... sometimes agency contractors make almost that...

Your typical fresh out of college "web designer" will be lucky to get $30 an hour.

EDIT: Most companies will not hire "designers" that claim to "build websites"... as it shows a complete disconnect with the way it really is. Also, I'd question anyone who would "build you a website" for a cue... I do this stuff all day long, last thing I want to do when I get home is work on another website... If they are willing to trade the many, many, many hours it takes to develop a 'real' website for a cue (1-2grand), they obviously don't do that great of a job... I'd rather just buy the cue with the money I already made working.

Furthermore, designers design. Developers develop. Neither do both - if they claim they do, they suck at both.

True story.
 
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qbilder said:
I meant no disrespect toward IT guys in general, just pointed out that not everybody who says they are an IT guy is actually worthy of the task. Just like not everybody who calls themselves a cue maker is worthy of the task.
Click to expand...

Eric, who knows ... you might inspire your IT guy (whatever that means) to buy a bunch lathes, get it dialed down to .000000001, buy a bunch of Brazilian Rosewood and start making cues. :thumbup:

Hidy "not IT" Ho
 
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