Custom cues

Tillman345

Tillman345

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi. I am new here. I love the game of billiards and love looking at all the cues on here in the gallery or the for sale area. I have learned a lot about custom cues in my short time here. But I have a question. Why do some cuemakers get more praise than others while other look to be superior in my eye? I am not going to list any names as to I dont want to ruffle any feathers in my first thread. I have seen some beautiful cues that seem perfect to me in every way. Inlays, points, veneers and wraps done perfect go for less than half than a plain cue from another maker that I see flaws in right of the rip. I know the theory of supply and demand, but in my mind why is there such an urge to buy something just because there arent many made. In my mind if a cuemaker makes lets say 10 a year and another makes 60. In my mind the guy who makes 60 knows his job better and probably puts out a better product. And I am not talking about just throwing together something, but I am talking inlays and all the other things that go into the cue. Why should I pay a premium for something from someone who decides to only do it part-time? I mean if I decided I would only work 1 day a week at my job, should I demand a higher price for my salary because I choose to only work one day a week?

I guess the bottom line is, why arent cues valued by workmanship as opposed to quantities? Thanks.
 
Actually, they typically are. Most of the high-end makers are considered high end due to the overall quality of their cues. And they ALL only have one job. The biggest thing that they all have in common that you haven't hit on is resale value. Even in these times, high end cues tend to hold their value really well. Top names like Scruggs, Black, Mottey, etc are almost always going to bring at least their initial cost, as long as they are well maintained. Plus, with those "name" makers, you get more piece of mind in terms of warpage, finish, etc. Plus, you cannot tell "hit or feel" from a pic. Most of the established guys already have great name recognition for those. I have personally owned 2 Scruggs, and I can tell you that they were the two best playing cues I have ever had, and I have had a lot of cues, and several that were in the 2K+ range. But realistically, cues are worth exactly what you are willing to pay for them. hope this might help.
 
Cost of a cue goes deeper than just the way the cue looks. Most of the time, I think, that a high value cue does not just cost a lot because the cue maker only makes a few a year. You have to consider playability. If a cue maker has a reputation of building a straight cue that gives back a lot of feed back, has a good balance, generates spin easily, does not warp easily (basically has longevity), etc, then he or she can sell the cue for a higher price, whether or not it "look superior." There's no way that a new, unknown cue maker can sell his or her cue for as much as a well known builder with a good reputation. You are right, rarity and availabilty does affect the value of a cue, but there are a lot of cue makers who have a good rep who make 20+ cues per year that sell their cues for just as much as a cue maker who only makes circa 10 cues per year. Cost of a cue is not just about looks and visual appeal (kind of redundant), it's also about playability, longevity, and the cue maker's reputation. If a cue maker has a good rep, that can sell for a higher price, because the consumer knows that he or she is getting a lot of bang for their buck... aaaannndd I'm through *phew*
 
Complicated question you have there, if you are considering a cue purchase,
I would suggest narrowing your cue choices down and ask specific questions about specific cues/cue makers so you can start to sort through all the information and make an informed choice.

If you live in an area where you can go and hit with a few cues that would be very helpful, I don't have any good cue makers in my area,
only Eric Crisp, Bill Stroud and Wes Hunter.
 
Maybe I am totally wrong, certain cues are meant for as collector items and how exotic they are, some are made for pure great playability. Though there are plenty of high end collector items that hit like a dream. But I personally wouldn't be playing with a $30K szam lol. Most cuemakers that only make very few cues a year only makes such a low quantity of cue because they invest a lot of time in one cue (amounts on inlay, splices, picking out the perfect wood, making sure everything is perfect, and etc.) Just my .02
 
get it, dont get it

I understand the first part of your thread. Some of that is because of rep. those builders have made a name for themselves, so their cues bring a good price...I dont agree with some of it but I do understand it....

The second part of your post is not really true....There are cue makers that only make a few cues a year by choice, that make great cues...I know a tiny bit about cue making and would like to tell you its not just clue some sticks together and their ya go...I would rather buy a cue from a guy that takes his time is really picky about his product thats where I come from...I can tell you what is really interesting is the number of cuemakers that dont even make their own splices and sell the cue as a custom cue for big money that is crazy to me, I was blown away when I found that out...Thats like buying a plain jane car painting it yourself putting some bells on it and selling it as your own car...
 
bigshooter said:
Complicated question you have there, if you are considering a cue purchase,
I would suggest narrowing your cue choices down and ask specific questions about specific cues/cue makers so you can start to sort through all the information and make an informed choice.

If you live in an area where you can go and hit with a few cues that would be very helpful, I don't have any good cue makers in my area,
only Eric Crisp, Bill Stroud and Wes Hunter.
Click to expand...

:thumbup:, Yea, them guys are beginners:D
 
I am not totally ignorant of nice custom cues. I am not referring to the unknown cue makers or production cues. I have played mainly 4 different cues in the last 15 years. These are the best cues that I have had the fortune to play with. Mottey, Scruggs, Black and a B.Szam(a friend of mines'). I alternate between the Mottey and Scruggs. I have seen a lot of cues on here from cue makers that I have never heard of. I dont get around much and the cues that I have bought have all been purchases of oppurtunity. Someone comes in and gambles, loses and ends up selling his cue. I bought a few that way. Anyway, there are some cues out there that are basic cues that sell for more than fancy versions that each of these have made and as far as I can tell, havent been built any better but the plain cues sell for more. I just dont get it. I mean everyone needs to make a buck in the world, but I just dont see the drive to buy them other than rarity. But that goes to my work analogy. I hope this sheds some light as to what I mean with the question and what my cue background is. Thanks for the responses.

PS-Who is Eric Crisp and when did he start making cues? Did he apprentice with anyone? I will say this, I have seen some of his cues and I have either been impressed or totally let down. He has made some really pretty cues with no inlays using just the beauty of the wood itself to do the talking. Then I come across some pictures of cues that are not visibly appealing. I have never hit with one so I have no comment on how they play.
 
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Tillman345 said:
I am not totally ignorant of nice custom cues. I am not referring to the unknown cue makers or production cues. I have played mainly 4 different cues in the last 15 years. These are the best cues that I have had the fortune to play with. Mottey, Scruggs, Black and a B.Szam(a friend of mines'). I alternate between the Mottey and Scruggs. I have seen a lot of cues on here from cue makers that I have never heard of. I dont get around much and the cues that I have bought have all been purchases of oppurtunity. Someone comes in and gambles, loses and ends up selling his cue. I bought a few that way. Anyway, there are some cues out there that are basic cues that sell for more than fancy versions that each of these have made and as far as I can tell, havent been built any better but the plain cues sell for more. I just dont get it. I mean everyone needs to make a buck in the world, but I just dont see the drive to buy them other than rarity. But that goes to my work analogy. I hope this sheds some light as to what I mean with the question and what my cue background is. Thanks for the responses.

PS-Who is Eric Crisp and when did he start making cues? Did he apprentice with anyone? I will say this, I have seen some of his cues and I have either been impressed or totally let down. He has made some really pretty cues with no inlays using just the beauty of the wood itself to do the talking. Then I come across some pictures of cues that are not visibly appealing. I have never hit with one so I have no comment on how they play.
Click to expand...

I think that would just come down to personal preference and whether or not you perceive it as a beauty. Everyone's taste are different, some cues you look at and you will feel paying over 100 is too much, but to someone else, it might be worth the 3500 price tag. I personally like a more plain jane type of cues with beautiful wood rather than a trillion inlays, but to many others, they like fancy inlays with really detail ring works, ivory, and etc. See, it is all personal preference, but I also think I don't like'em because I can't afford'em. :wink:
 
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Tillman345 said:
Why do some cuemakers get more praise than others while other look to be superior in my eye?
Click to expand...

There are two kinds of buyers of cues:
A) Those who think the utility of a cue is in the hit; these people are called players
B) Those who think the utility of a cue is in the looks; these people are called collectors
some people stradle the line and are both players and collectors.
 
MitchAlsup said:
There are two kinds of buyers of cues:
A) Those who think the utility of a cue is in the hit; these people are called players
B) Those who think the utility of a cue is in the looks; these people are called collectors
some people stradle the line and are both players and collectors.
Click to expand...

This is a good example of cue buyers and I have to add that I think some buyers are buying cues for the name more than that particular cue is better than the next quality cue. Name recognition carries a lot of weight in the price of a cue.

James
 
Tillman345 said:
Hi. I am new here...should I pay a premium for something from someone who decides to only do it part-time? I mean if I decided I would only work 1 day a week at my job, should I demand a higher price for my salary because I choose to only work one day a week? ...Thanks.
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Yes- send the money. Send money now.
 
Lot's of reasons for differing opinions of cuemakers and their work. Sometimes the cuemaker will have a bad rep or great rep when it comes to customer service and warranty. Some cuemakers do fantasic work using the latest high tech methods like CNC, while others use more "old fashion methods". Some cuemakers build works of art. Sometimes there is work that may not be apparent to you since you don't build cues but a LOT more work goes into building a full splice cue than buying a blank. Some cuemakers do work that goes beyond the norm....such as scrimshaw work. Best way to select a cuemaker in my opinion is to keep trolling the wanted/for sale section,the cue gallery, and the ask the cuemaker section. Or you could do like I temporarily did and buy a McDermott with the lifetime warranty.:)


Terry <gonna get me one of them Webbs or Murray Tuckers (soon as he needs parts for his boat:grin:)
 
Players point of view

MitchAlsup said:
There are two kinds of buyers of cues:
A) Those who think the utility of a cue is in the hit; these people are called players
B) Those who think the utility of a cue is in the looks; these people are called collectors
some people stradle the line and are both players and collectors.
Click to expand...

So very true your right on.

My disappointment is with today's players not the cuemakers

They will build whatever us the customers wants/demand.

Problem is when you try to make functional/art improving one only hurts the other.

How many times like here on Az do you find post that start with "I'm looking for a cue with 4 points maybe some inlays......." the first words out of his mouth shows many players want art first and functionallity second not that I'm looking for a stiffer hitting/Juiced up tip smaller diameter butt for my larger hands who cares what it looks like I want playability.

Believe me cuemakers build what sells

Its like a having NASCAR drivers more interested in the paint job than the engines I don't get it.

I mean no disrespect to collectors but their has to be more "players" buying cues than collectors. So why is the emphasis still based on art.

This is why I think predator did so well. Players bought these beautiful cues that didn't necessarily play well, but this magic shaft from predator
coulld will fix whatever your holding and by some accounts could even solve world hunger.

Tillman you need first decide why your buying the custom cue. Is it a staus symbol,a bread winning tool,a passion,a hobby. Then determine what YOU need or specifications if your not that versed in what you need then you may trust the cuemaker for everything and go with his reccomendation/specs.

For me the hardest part is deciding on the right match between a player and cuemaker because a custom cue is a collaboration between both of you.

If it isn't a colaboration then its a production cue cause you had no input.
"nothing was customized" off the shelf is exactly that off the shelf.



Remember this is My opinion and not Charles Barkley's so please don't make me your role model
 
You made mention of part time builders/hobbyists and perhaps not being worth your time, because they do not build full time. I think you are doing yourself and these makers a disservice by such an easy dismissal. I would say that many of these makers have families to support and bills to pay, and solely building cues just isn't doing it, so a 'real' job is a necessity. I know of one maker who is part of a very busy family business, and is an extremely devoted and hands-on family man...building a cue is not his top priority.....although he builds one helluva cue.

The reality of building cues in this day and age is that there is a virtual plethora of makers out there now, and very few, if any, are gonna get rich building cues. With many of the upper echelon makers, as their pricing went up, so did the quality of their machinery, thus allowing them to produce an even higher quality product. The cashflow is converted into ever improving their shops. Also, keeping a constant quality of wood in stock and seasoning ain't cheap. There is overhead you may be discounting.

The rest is just a matter of supply and demand...and a LOT of word of mouth. Players are generally the ones who get the word out on a particular maker, and when the chatter gets loud enough, the collectors follow.

Lisa
 
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Tillman345 said:
This is what I am talking about.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=133589
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=125230&highlight=mottey
I know the Mottey is older, but you cant say Sugartree rep is better than Mottey. I mean, how long has Mottey made cues versus the other. This is the question I am asking in this thread.

Oh, and what is this red crap under my name? What does this mean?
Click to expand...

Don't stress the rep stuff. I never understood it, either.

I have been building cues for about 10 years. I have never advertised or openly marketed my cues, and I haven't been accepting orders in about 2 years, likely never will again. It's a hobby, meaning my family & me do not depend on it for any food or bills. As such i'm free to build whatever I want, whenever I want, for whomever I want. I spend the vast majority of my time with my children & wife. Cues are something I do to keep from pulling my hair out. It's my "man time" away from the woman & kids. I love pool, cues & love building cues.

Most of my woods come from me actually travelling all over the world collecting them. When i'm somewhere & see an interesting piece of wood, I buy it. It doesn't matter to me if it's a board or a piece of furniture, it becomes a cue. My shaft wood is all processed by me from raw stock & a lot of time I cut & mill the tree they come from. I simply have fun with it. It starts on a cold winter day in the woods with a chainsaw & tractor, goes to the mill & gets sawn, thrown in a kiln, sorted for defects then marked & recut into shaft squares, dowelled & hung to wait for the series of cuts. It's fun. Cues are uber slow in the making, but I have my hand in as many steps as I possibly can.

I began building cues because unlike some of the great players, I don't have a natural talent for the game. I tried putting in the work & time & lost tons of cash gambling, still to only be a consistent B player with hints of A tendencies. But I love the game & any fair edge helps. So I began building cues that made the game a little easier for me, and devoted my focus into the finer aspects of how a cue should hit, feel, respond, play. It was for me, my game. It just so happened that other people liked them as well & in no time flat I was swamped with people asking for cues. I never intended for it to become a business & certainly wasn't looking for fame or recognition. It just happened. Then it became a personal goal of mine to build the absolute best playing cue ever. I certainly wasn't ever going to fulfill my dream of being a great player, but had/have a chance at becoming a great cuemaker. And I have the resources to do it. So all I gotta do is keep learning, and keep getting better at making a cue that's easy to play with. Maybe by the time I have 30-40 years in the game i'll be something. Maybe not. But i'll have a helleva fun time trying. I'll certainly never stop getting better or learning.

Hopefully that answers your question about who I am & where I came from. I'm friends with several other cuemakers, some beginners & some the best ever in the history of cues. Believe me, if anybody knew why players choose one cue over another then we'd all be cashing in. But we don't. So I can't answer your questions about cue value. All I can offer you is a look into why I build cues. It's fun. That's it. I don't care about the money. It's peanuts. My life is my family. Cues are expensive wooden toys for grown-ups that can afford the luxury of them. Kids collect baseball cards. Grown-ups collect cues. It's fun.
 
qbilder said:
Don't stress the rep stuff. I never understood it, either.

I have been building cues for about 10 years. I have never advertised or openly marketed my cues, and I haven't been accepting orders in about 2 years, likely never will again. It's a hobby, meaning my family & me do not depend on it for any food or bills. As such i'm free to build whatever I want, whenever I want, for whomever I want. I spend the vast majority of my time with my children & wife. Cues are something I do to keep from pulling my hair out. It's my "man time" away from the woman & kids. I love pool, cues & love building cues.

Most of my woods come from me actually travelling all over the world collecting them. When i'm somewhere & see an interesting piece of wood, I buy it. It doesn't matter to me if it's a board or a piece of furniture, it becomes a cue. My shaft wood is all processed by me from raw stock & a lot of time I cut & mill the tree they come from. I simply have fun with it. It starts on a cold winter day in the woods with a chainsaw & tractor, goes to the mill & gets sawn, thrown in a kiln, sorted for defects then marked & recut into shaft squares, dowelled & hung to wait for the series of cuts. It's fun. Cues are uber slow in the making, but I have my hand in as many steps as I possibly can.

I began building cues because unlike some of the great players, I don't have a natural talent for the game. I tried putting in the work & time & lost tons of cash gambling, still to only be a consistent B player with hints of A tendencies. But I love the game & any fair edge helps. So I began building cues that made the game a little easier for me, and devoted my focus into the finer aspects of how a cue should hit, feel, respond, play. It was for me, my game. It just so happened that other people liked them as well & in no time flat I was swamped with people asking for cues. I never intended for it to become a business & certainly wasn't looking for fame or recognition. It just happened. Then it became a personal goal of mine to build the absolute best playing cue ever. I certainly wasn't ever going to fulfill my dream of being a great player, but had/have a chance at becoming a great cuemaker. And I have the resources to do it. So all I gotta do is keep learning, and keep getting better at making a cue that's easy to play with. Maybe by the time I have 30-40 years in the game i'll be something. Maybe not. But i'll have a helleva fun time trying. I'll certainly never stop getting better or learning.

Hopefully that answers your question about who I am & where I came from. I'm friends with several other cuemakers, some beginners & some the best ever in the history of cues. Believe me, if anybody knew why players choose one cue over another then we'd all be cashing in. But we don't. So I can't answer your questions about cue value. All I can offer you is a look into why I build cues. It's fun. That's it. I don't care about the money. It's peanuts. My life is my family. Cues are expensive wooden toys for grown-ups that can afford the luxury of them. Kids collect baseball cards. Grown-ups collect cues. It's fun.
Click to expand...

Excellent post!!! Thanks for sharing:thumbup:
 
Tillman345 said:
This is what I am talking about.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=133589
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=125230&highlight=mottey
I know the Mottey is older, but you cant say Sugartree rep is better than Mottey. I mean, how long has Mottey made cues versus the other. This is the question I am asking in this thread.

Oh, and what is this red crap under my name? What does this mean?
Click to expand...

Ever heard of the chicken pox? Or was it herpes? lmao jk
 
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