Cutting Coring Dowels

[BarenbruggeCues]

Hi,


The total area of the cone increases as you go out on the X and this increased surface defuses the energy because the footprint of aspect ratio area gets larger. The rate of this diffusion is defined by the taper. I know we are splitting hairs here but hairs can be split.

I hope the OP excuses this highjack but I have been a Tesla fan since I was 13 years old:

Nicola Tesla was the greatest genius and his contributions changed the world we live in in such a profound way it is unreal and incomparable to any other human being. Here are just some of his contributions to humanity from my memory of the topic:

Developed the concept of the Polyphase motor and is the father of Alternating Current which is the basis for the power grid and power distribution world wide.

Invented the coil.

Invented the Cathode Ray tube and was the father of Television.

Father of Radio. Was the first person to demonstrate wireless radio intelligence ( before Marconi ) and demonstrated the concept in front of the top electrical engineers of the day at Madison Square Gardens in the early 1890s.

Experimented and proved the Franklin theory of electron flow to be wrong concerning the earth's polarity.

Invented the florescent bulb.

First to use X-Ray technology, Sonar and Radar

His studies in high frequency and high potential wave theory led to micro wave and laser technology 50 years later for the star wars space weapons for locking on and destroying ICBM missiles.

Developed torpedo and missile guidance system for the US Government.

Pioneer in low frequency pulse theory that is the wave length that we communicate with submarines around the world by by send signals into the earth.

He developed the Wardencliff Tower which if were duplicated all over the world would give all nations free electrical power using the earth's magnetic flux to supply power from the earth itself. The prototype project was funded by JP Morgan and was shut down when Morgan asked Tesla where the meter would be attached. Tesla was a humanitarian and had no interest in commercial interests.

There are many other things that Tesla pioneered and developed and he had hundreds of patents which other persons and corporate interests made billions of dollars on. Once Tesla got one of his projects to a situation where he was satisfied with his accomplishment, he would become bored and moved on to the next interest. He was showered with benefactors and money his entire adult life and was only interested in science and his quest for more understanding.

If you research his name before 1980 you will find very little info other than the coil and AC Power thing because he and George Westinghouse won the power distribution war between AC or DC being the standard for the power industry. They went up against the biggest financial and industrial people in the world who were invested in DC. After their loss they made every effort to buy out and ruin Westinghouse and destroy Tesla from history because of their control in publishing.

Today with the internet, the hold on Tesla's accomplishments and blackballing is not as big of a barrier to his legacy. There was also a raciest factor involved because Tesla was from the mountains of Croatia.

When Tesla found out that his good friend George Westinghouse was losing his company because of the fat cat rat fink Kabul lead by Thomas Edison, Tesla ripped up his royalty contract so Westinghouse would have the capitol to fend off the stock takeover. He did this for his friend and the person who believed in Tesla's vision concerning Polyphase AC power distribution when it was just a dream.

That contract that he ripped up was the largest contract in world history to the benefactor of the royalties. Tesla owned a contract that would have made him the richest man the world could have ever produced because is was to received 1 dollar for every 1 horsepower of any item built using or generating AC as a source. This was at the begining of the industrial revolution. A pretty good friend I would say.

Some of the great minds in academia did some studies that were double blind evaluations that took place at Stanford, MIT and Princeton concerning the statistics relative to Tesla's contributions and impact on humanity as a scientist and inventor. The odds of one man making the type of contributions he made was astronomical and a mathematical impossibility.

On all three of the surveys seeking mathematical and statistical input from the top minds from academia the results all came back with the same conclusion. Tesla was a Superman and because of the numerous advanced world and culture changing technologies he gave to human kind, you could not rule out the notion that he was not an extra terrestrial.:nono:

Rick

Check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoY_7mbm5ng

The real question remains....Did he build and test billiards cues? I fail to understand the comparison. Plain and simple....building cues is not rocket science work. However, it is know to have a delicate difference of doing things a proper way and not doing things a proper way. I understand the potato/po ta to thing and to each their own but splitting atoms is not in the criteria of building a solid, well constructed billiard cue. I believe we may at times can get bored and over think the sales techniques used in an attempt to gain notoriety for slumping product movement though.

 

[Cue Crazy]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so just relaying a recent experience of mine, but I'm in the process of finishing up a fully cored cue now. Not parabolic, just a Straight taper as the customer prefers them that way. One thing I can say is that It was nice not to have any movement at all between turns. The handle is also very strong, no flex near the "A" joint or anywhere else for that matter. The real test will be how well It hits and plays, but I have 2 shafts matched to It, and so far I like the sound of the hit that It's producing. if all turns out well I may do more cues this way, and experiment with different coring woods, but there will always be a need for a more traditional style "A" joint too..

 

[whammo57]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so just relaying a recent experience of mine, but I'm in the process of finishing up a fully cored cue now. Not parabolic, just a Straight taper as the customer prefers them that way. One thing I can say is that It was nice not to have any movement at all between turns. The handle is also very strong, no flex near the "A" joint or anywhere else for that matter. The real test will be how well It hits and plays, but I have 2 shafts matched to It, and so far I like the sound of the hit that It's producing. if all turns out well I may do more cues this way, and experiment with different coring woods, but there will always be a need for a more traditional style "A" joint too..

My first cue had an A joint........... I fully cored my second cue and never looked back.

Kim

 

[Cue Crazy]

My first cue had an A joint........... I fully cored my second cue and never looked back.

Kim

If It works out the way It seems to be so far, I think I will at least be doing most Merry widows this way. It would speed up the turning process for me too. I have had cues with regular "A" joint that had very little movement, but this one showed none at all between turns. It seems to be a very stable way of doing them, But It's the first one that I have fully cored, and the woods used were aged well. I'm probably going to do 4 or 5 more using different woods, and see what the results are from those.

 

[bruppert]

My first cue had an A joint........... I fully cored my second cue and never looked back.

Kim

Kim, you core the complete Butt, the entire 29" section? Do you have any problems with things such as getting rings in between the forearm and handle or problems getting your faces perfectly lined up? Do you glue everything to that 30"+ dowel all at one time? I would love to do it that way and get away from tenons, pins, etc.. but I don't know if my Hightower Deluxe would handle it (power and accuracy). The power might be OK with the one I just got since it has a large motor but I don't know if it will drill straight enough to not make a tapered hole, especially going 30". Wonder if I could make something accurate enough to just slide on the bed, kind of like you do with the Tailstock on a metal lathe when Reaming?

 

[Canadian cue]

Mostly wax with a little heat

I don't mind the idea of a full length core, but when used with a forearm with mitered points .Filling the voids from the cutter with epoxy doesn't sit right with me.
Just an observation though

 

[Cue Crazy]

I don't mind the idea of a full length core, but when used with a forearm with mitered points .Filling the voids from the cutter with epoxy doesn't sit right with me.
Just an observation though

My plan for it is to only use It on merry widows or flat inlay designs. On "V" groove cues I would probably stick to the way I already do them.

 

[scdiveteam]

I don't mind the idea of a full length core, but when used with a forearm with mitered points .Filling the voids from the cutter with epoxy doesn't sit right with me.
Just an observation though

Hi CC,

I did a lot of A Joint cues for years and I could make the same observation you do concerning strength of the structure of that thin wall and the veneers strength before the pin and the dowel glue up. It is all relative I guess.

If full coring my cues meant only Plane Janes, I would not core them and would go conventional. With my developed procedure I get the best of both worlds. What I like about this method is that my point stay very even because I am on the same center from the get go.

80% of my cues are 5 pointers and they are even stronger torsionally before the handle glue up because the 5 point geometry does not cut as deep. It is all relative as the handle glue up locks everything in concrete so to speak structurally as does a conventional A- Joint method for joining.

The modulus of the epoxy is much stronger that the wood fiber X 2 +. I put the epoxy in the cutter voids before I re turn the dowel and do the facing. While turning this dowel is it very stable and cuts very nice. The dowel is turned back down to .738 holding it in a chuck collet and the end is in a live center in the tail stock. It machines very clean and it is very solid in this machining configuration. After the handle is glued on, it is even more sound not unlike doing a regular A-Joint.

Rick

Here is a before and after. The end of the points shown here are about 13.250".

After facing the fore arm to 12" the rod is strong as hell and when the handle in glued on it is a very strong joint. I cut the glue grooves with a bastard file and press hard to get these keyways. The dowel is not flimsy my any means.

 

[whammo57]

Kim, you core the complete Butt, the entire 29" section?
I have cored a full 29 inch piece. I had to drill from both ends to do it. Most of the time the cue is in sections, forearm, handle, and butt sleeve.

Do you have any problems with things such as getting rings in between the forearm and handle or problems getting your faces perfectly lined up?
No problem with rings. It is important that you face everything off perfectly square. I dry fit it and hold it up to the light to see if it fits right.

Do you glue everything to that 30"+ dowel all at one time? I would love to do it that way and get away from tenons, pins, etc.. but
I usually glue it on the dowel a piece at a time.

I don't know if my Hightower Deluxe would handle it (power and accuracy). The power might be OK with the one I just got since it has a large motor but I don't know if it will drill straight enough to not make a tapered hole, especially going 30". Wonder if I could make something accurate enough to just slide on the bed, kind of like you do with the Tailstock on a metal lathe when Reaming?

I use a Hightower lathe. I did put on an auxillary 1/2 hp ac motor for boring. You must use a gun drill. It is impossible to drill a straight hole that long with anything else.

Kim

 

[scdiveteam]

Kim, you core the complete Butt, the entire 29" section? Do you have any problems with things such as getting rings in between the forearm and handle or problems getting your faces perfectly lined up? Do you glue everything to that 30"+ dowel all at one time? I would love to do it that way and get away from tenons, pins, etc.. but I don't know if my Hightower Deluxe would handle it (power and accuracy). The power might be OK with the one I just got since it has a large motor but I don't know if it will drill straight enough to not make a tapered hole, especially going 30". Wonder if I could make something accurate enough to just slide on the bed, kind of like you do with the Tailstock on a metal lathe when Reaming?

Bruppert,

The ring question is a very good one. Because you need to have an annulus gap to fill the core with poly glue, you must get a smaller drill bit to drill the ID of your ring billets. I use a 47/64" (.734) drill bit to drill my billets. I have to sand the ID of the billets just a hair and the rings can't float around and they line up with the point geometry perfectly.

Billets drilled at .750 can go off if you are not paying attention when to press / clamp during glue curing.

Rick

 

[whammo57]

I don't mind the idea of a full length core, but when used with a forearm with mitered points .Filling the voids from the cutter with epoxy doesn't sit right with me.
Just an observation though

There is no compromise in strength by filling the point voids in the dowel with epoxy. The next cored piece is glued over them any way. The way it is done is that the forearm with the points are trimmed forward so that the filled voids are not at the junction between the handle and forearm, they are under the handle.

Kim

 

[scdiveteam]

OK, I will Rick.
.850-.980 to 1.250.
Let's do the math.
.950-.850/12, that would be .0108 per inch straight taper.
Much less angle than the usual .014 per inch taper. We're losing .038 in the A-joint area.

How do we go from .980 to 1.250 in 17 inches ?
A curve or parabola ?
How does the handle become skinnier when that averages close to .0159" per inch. If there is a curve, it will be very drastic from the .980" point to that curve to be able to keep the grip area slim.
Do you have a radius or curve? At what point ?

I got plenty of cosmetic blems heavy maple dowels. But, at .980" a-j area, I'm guessing I will have to add a lot of weight under the pin to counter that light middle and heavy bottom.

Joey,

Look closely at the contour of the cue pic I displayed. The largest part of the curve is from the butt cap into the handle. I cut my taper bar on the CNC and the numbers I posted work out in this profile cut.

On most cues the weight is about 3/4 oz. up front and I balance the fulcrum by a small compensating bolt on the rear. Sometimes no bolt in the rear at all and 1 oz. up front. All depends.

Rick



Rick

 

[cutter]

coring dowels

There is no compromise in strength by filling the point voids in the dowel with epoxy. The next cored piece is glued over them any way. The way it is done is that the forearm with the points are trimmed forward so that the filled voids are not at the junction between the handle and forearm, they are under the handle.

Kim

Might want to rethink that statement. The deepest point of the point channel is where the points are closest. Most epoxy is made to bond items not to make structural components. I'm not saying it's not strong enough, but it's not
super strong. I'd also be interested in the thermal expansion comparisions of
a big chunk of (wonder 5 minute epoxy) and different woods.

 

[whammo57]

Bruppert,

The ring question is a very good one. Because you need to have an annulus gap to fill the core with poly glue, you must get a smaller drill bit to drill the ID of your ring billets. I use a 47/64" (.734) drill bit to drill my billets. I have to sand the ID of the billets just a hair and the rings can't float around and they line up with the point geometry perfectly.

Billets drilled at .750 can go off if you are not paying attention when to press / clamp during glue curing.

Rick

rick,

You are right.... the first few I did had some of the rings with a loose fit and I noticed the tiny misalignment.

Remember, my gun drill is .6876 and, of course rings have a .750 or a .625 bore.



Now, I turn the front of the dowel to .625 or a tight fit for the joint rings. I also make the forearm about 1/2 inch longer than I need and turn the end that meets the handle down to .750 for the rings. I also do this for the handle and the butt sleeve. Because of this the rings actually ride on the turned down (.750) end of the forearm, the handle, and the butt sleeve and not the dowel. I think this makes the rings more stable also.

I hope I explained it so you know what I am talking about.

Kim

 

[Canadian cue]

Hi Rick,
I do respect the fact that you are transparent with your methods, and that you are willing to show the world your techniques. It tells something of your character and your buisness ethics, however in this case if I were a potential customer those big chunks of epoxy would bring into question your standards as a craftsman. In my mind epoxy does not replace wood. It just looks wrong, there is no area of fine woodworking where using adhesive to fill in large gaps or voids is considered good practice. IMO building cues is no different. But hey it is only one mans opinion and as you have stated many times before everyone has a different way of doing things.

 

[Trent]

Might want to rethink that statement. The deepest point of the point channel is where the points are closest. Most epoxy is made to bond items not to make structural components. I'm not saying it's not strong enough, but it's not
super strong. I'd also be interested in the thermal expansion comparisions of
a big chunk of (wonder 5 minute epoxy) and different woods.

Very good point...... For my self if I felt I absolutely had to have a full core id try to core the forearm over size so i could chop off the gigantic glue voids.
And i have done this, it made it difficult to say the least.

for my coring dowels, I treat them just as I do my shafts and keep the best I can, and cut them down to .750-.800 dip them letem sit until im ready to stuff them in whatever I want to core and cut them to fit my .750 gun drill.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey,

Look closely at the contour of the cue pic I displayed. The largest part of the curve is from the butt cap into the handle. I cut my taper bar on the CNC and the numbers I posted work out in this profile cut.





Rick

Of course it is.
In fact, it's the only curve. The forearm is a straight angle from .850 to.980.
What's the radius from .980 to 1.250 in 17 inches ?
Or is it a flare ?

 

[JoeyInCali]

Very good point...... For my self if I felt I absolutely had to have a full core id try to core the forearm over size so i could chop off the gigantic glue voids.
And i have done this, it made it difficult to say the least.

for my coring dowels, I treat them just as I do my shafts and keep the best I can, and cut them down to .750-.800 dip them letem sit until im ready to stuff them in whatever I want to core and cut them to fit my .750 gun drill.

I don't see the value of avoiding the A-joint then having all that cavity in there filled with epoxy.
Here's one of my early forearm core mock-ups.
I've changed the config a lot since but the philosophy is the same.
Easy to slip a .750 ID rings in there.
It can be easily threaded onto a handle core too and have different woods in combination if wanted to get the hit and weight/balance.
You can also do the bushka phenolic sleeve if you want.

 

[scdiveteam]

Hi Rick,
I do respect the fact that you are transparent with your methods, and that you are willing to show the world your techniques. It tells something of your character and your buisness ethics, however in this case if I were a potential customer those big chunks of epoxy would bring into question your standards as a craftsman. In my mind epoxy does not replace wood. It just looks wrong, there is no area of fine woodworking where using adhesive to fill in large gaps or voids is considered good practice. IMO building cues is no different. But hey it is only one mans opinion and as you have stated many times before everyone has a different way of doing things.

CC,

I am cool with your opinion and I respect that. I have built about 85 cues since going to this method and I must say that I like it better than the conventional A-Joint and until you have had hands on doing it this way, I could see it would bring some questions to one who has not worked this method.

Strength is not even a consideration to me from my experience and point of view as a mechanic with over 30 years of experience.

Epoxy is used as a gap filler all the time in different applications. I use to inject epoxy in cracks on concrete dam faces underwater and most epoxy has a structural component not just a glue the way most cue makers view it.

As far as the way it looks, IMO it looks very elegant as it a result of my problem solving as it was my intention to cut points on a forearm on the core. This was an evolution that is part of my ~QA/~QC procedure that has been beta tested and verified over time. Even if I thought it was ugly, I would have no concerns as it is not a part of the fit and finish of my end product which should speak for itself concerning any level of craftsmanship I may have attained. That is for others to judge with a jaundice eye for details. My eye and senses have no prejudice but I will keep any thoughts in that area under my vest.

Rick

 

[scdiveteam]

I don't see the value of avoiding the A-joint then having all that cavity in there filled with epoxy.

Joey,

Unless you wish to put points on the cue after the 30" dowel is glued to the core. If this is your choice, like the path I have committed to, you will have to fill the voids from the cutter. One who thinks this is silly should try it first before shooting arrows.

I guess you have not been able to do the push off comparison experiment between centers yet as you will need to get your hands on a cored cue. After you do, you will get the picture and understand why a fully cored cue with a 3/4" dowel measuring .980 in the A position will bend less than a thicker one with an A-Joint over .920. You know Joey, I am not making this up and I take this stuff as serious as a heart attack because it is my job. It is unequivocal fact without bias or urban legend stuff that is thrown around all of the time in cue making.

BTW, I am not telling anybody to do this. I am only sharing my protocol in this area. If anyone wants to throw a ball to knock me into the dunk tank I am all for it as I use this form for peer check and review.

Any one who has bored an A-Joint hole with multiple veneers installed in the forearm understands just how tenuous this area is concerning structure integrity and until you get it glued up without blowing some epoxy though a veneer it is a Heightened Level of Awareness time in the cue building process. After all, veneers are not the strongest or most structural material we use in cue making. This stuff does not come into play with my method. It is not even a consideration. This is my point of contention in this argument. Is it better to fill gap or to deal with glued up an A-Joint tenon whereby less than 1 psi of hydraulic pressure will seep thru the veneers. If you are building cues and have not experienced this at some point, you are either lying or your tenon gap is too large and IMO you have a flawed connection. If you are doing plane janes or CNC point cues this point is moot.

Rick


Here is a forearm glued to a 30" dowel before point grooves are cut. The maple piece is the sacrificial that will be cut away after the points are glued in the the gaps are filled. After complete curing, the sacrificial will be turned down, the Padauk will be faced at 12" and the epoxy filled dowel will be turned back down to .738 ready to receive the handle and the gluing process.