Cutting V-groove points that touch?

ELBeau

ELBeau

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Does cutting deep V points that touch weaken the forearm in any way?
I always assumed that little bit of the forearm base material somehow added strength and stability (perhaps keeping the points from coming apart at the base).
I understand that Lee's photos of the points touching are showing the precision of Brianna's recut fixture; I'm just curious about this particular technique!

Thanks,
Beau
 
It's fine so long as you cut the first two, glue them in, then cut the second two. Cutting all four at the same time is impossible because you will cut through the wood into infinity & the forearm will no longer have the tenon on the back.
 
I would say it depends on the technique used and what woods you are using. When I do them, I feel that the tenon at the back of the forearm is stronger than when I don't. Not that it matters at the end as that gets cut off when I joint it anyway, but I need something strong enough to turn it back to round. On cues that the points touch, I take extra steps to make sure that it's not going to flex.

If you have long Amboyna Points with no veneers into Maple, I would say it is weaker, but it probably isn't going to be much weaker than if they didn't touch. I'd say the opposite is true if you have the Maple Points into the Amboyna.

This is only on 4 point cues where they touch. Six long points that overlap aren't going to make much of a difference. You don't cut past the center of the cue.
 
here is a good site for construction. alot of learning here

http://www.dzcues.com/

i dont thin its weak

the center is still there.

vgroove is a wedge that gets smaller in the middle.

some use a pc of phen like on dz website to hold the points in.

with the glues we use today i dont think theres a problem. makers of the 70's didnt have the glues we do


not to disagree with eric but i dont know anyone that cuts 2 then 2. most do all 4 at the same time. i dont want to move anything.

just turn 1/4 cut ect..
 
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dave sutton said:
i dont know anyone that cuts 2 then 2. most do all 4 at the same time. i dont want to move anything.

just turn 1/4 cut ect..
Click to expand...

If I am doing 4 points that touch, I do one at a time because I am cutting through the middle of the forearm or very close to it. If I am doing 6 or 8, I will do 3/3 or 4/4.

Most of my 4 pointers almost touch, but not quite. It's still better to do 2/2 than all 4 at once because you will get a lot of vibrations when you make the last cut.

Below is a 4 pointer I just did where the points touch. These were cut and glued one at a time. When it's done, if my calculations are correct, they should touch just above the wrap. There is no ring at the A joint on this one.

12-09-08-001.jpg
 
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I totally agree with everything that Eric and Tony have depicted here. As they stated, You must do something to stabilize the rear of the prong to keep a center for follow up work and to get the 90 deg deep V-cuts to touch, the cutter most go to the center of the prong. when cutting to the center of the prong four times the rear of the prong is cut into four parts and no longer there.

I usually cut to .050 of center on a 4 pointer. This leaves a center piece of wood .100 which is just barely enough to keep alignment stable if you are careful. This leaves the points close to each other at the rear of the prong but certainly not touching. For them to touch you must do as Lee and Eric have stated, make to cuts to center 180 deg apart and while the other areas of the forearm are still intact, keeping stability, the points and veneers are glued into place, with a lot of extra epoxy filling the end of the V for strength. Once this has all dried then it is safe to cut the other Vs and build the prong as normal. This is one reason that I was so excited when Lee came out with his re-indexing fixture as now it is easy to remove the prong for glue-up and then return and be indexed perfectly for follow up operations.

Dick
 
hmmm. i stand corrected. now the question is how do you keep them perfect. im crazy about perfect points. it theyare off they can touch all they want. its the first thing i look and and one of my main concerns when i look as a buyer.
 
I never take it out of the mill until all the points are in. I've done it before using the Spur that Unique Sells, but I'm crazy about things being off by .001", so I decided it's easier to just glue up in the mill. It ties up my mill for about 12 hours. I do one point every four hours.

On the one I pictured, I lost my Zero on my X Axis. I had to eye it bank into place. Two points are about .003 shorter than the other two right now. That will get fixed next time I cut it.
 
I'm not sure why you would like to have them touching each other?
Do you mean it would make a big difference to the feeling/playability/strength?

Bob has been my biggest inspiration in this "art" of cue-making and his web page is awesome.
He has always been helpful and is the Q maker I'm saving my $ to making me a custom at some point in time (when I have got my machines).

Bob do this all in one bang which for me sounds logical
http://www.dzcues.com/images/videos/V-cut 6point.wmv

The result:
http://www.dzcues.com/images/coco 6 pt.jpg

Kent
 
seems like alot of work for no reason.

thats the cool thing about customs. do what you want as an artist.

i like big points. not long. szamboti style. 9-10in in legnth

gus cut his points into a square blank. they almost touched

this is fine for me

DSC01035_jpg.jpg
 
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Newton said:
I'm not sure why you would like to have them touching each other?
Do you mean it would make a big difference to the feeling/playability/strength?

Bob has been my biggest inspiration in this "art" of cue-making and his web page is awesome.
He has always been helpful and is the Q maker I'm saving my $ to making me a custom at some point in time (when I have got my machines).

Bob do this all in one bang which for me sounds logical
http://www.dzcues.com/images/videos/V-cut 6point.wmv

The result:
http://www.dzcues.com/images/coco 6 pt.jpg

Kent
Click to expand...

IMHO - and it is just my opinion - the points touching is preffered
by some people becaus it looks like the front is a fullspliced blank
rather than a half-splice.

It is akin to people who want a cue with CNC points to be manually
'sharpened' to look like spliced points.

Neither has any effect on the structural integrety of the cue.

It might be worth mentioning that a glue joint - given it is done right -
is sronger than the surrounding wood.

Dale<woodworker-at-large>
 
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pdcue said:
IMHO - and it is just my opinion - the points touching is preffered
by some people becaus it looks like the front is a fullspliced blank
rather than a half-splice.

It is akin to people who want a cue with CNC points to be manually
'sharpened' to look like spliced points.

Neither has any effect on the structural integrety of the cue.

It might be worth mentioning that a glue joint - given it is done right -
is sronger than the surrounding wood.

Dale<woodworker-at-large>
Click to expand...

Thank's Dale.

If it's done to make the half splice wider to mimic a full splice, then I understand it.

In case, would'nt it be better to search for a wider mill (>90') to make them broader and still keep the core of the forarm? I have not checked if these are available but hopefully there is some one somewhere which makes these....

Going out to test this out my self (the touching part).

Kent
 
Newton said:
In case, would'nt it be better to search for a wider mill (>90') to make them broader and still keep the core of the forarm? I have not checked if these are available but hopefully there is some one somewhere which makes these....
Kent
Click to expand...

Quoting my self now... Just found these after a quick search :
http://www.amanatool.com/cncroutingdetails/rc-1028.html

Can't of course make as deep V grooves as usual but grounder and wider...

Just an idea, might be a big no go..

Anyway, off to the garage.
K
 
Newton said:
Thank's Dale.

If it's done to make the half splice wider to mimic a full splice, then I understand it.

In case, would'nt it be better to search for a wider mill (>90') to make them broader and still keep the core of the forarm? I have not checked if these are available but hopefully there is some one somewhere which makes these....

Going out to test this out my self (the touching part).

Kent
Click to expand...

What you seem to be missing is that the depth is the same as the width on a V-groove. It is a 90 deg angle at the bottom so for the point to be wide enough to touch at the circumference, it also has to be deep enough that it touches the other V-cuts at the bottom of the V. The only way around this would to be using a different deg cut than 90 such as a 120 but by doing so you have a lot of trouble trying to get the inlaying point the same angle for a good fit.

Dick
 
Newton said:
Thank's Dale.

If it's done to make the half splice wider to mimic a full splice, then I understand it.

In case, would'nt it be better to search for a wider mill (>90') to make them broader and still keep the core of the forarm? I have not checked if these are available but hopefully there is some one somewhere which makes these....

Going out to test this out my self (the touching part).

Kent
Click to expand...

Kent, I am guessing that a 90 deg. is your best bet. You will need to glue back in with the exact angle for a good point. This would also hold true for the veneers. It will be a pain in the @$$ to get any other angle than 90.

Jim.
 
rhncue said:
What you seem to be missing is that the depth is the same as the width on a V-groove. It is a 90 deg angle at the bottom so for the point to be wide enough to touch at the circumference, it also has to be deep enough that it touches the other V-cuts at the bottom of the V. The only way around this would to be using a different deg cut than 90 such as a 120 but by doing so you have a lot of trouble trying to get the inlaying point the same angle for a good fit.

Dick
Click to expand...


Dick, I think several folks are not realizing this. I think this may be one of those situations where you you just gotta learn it on your own. It only takes cutting one good forearm in two and the lesson is learned. But until then, it may be tough to visualize exactly what happens when trying to cut four point grooves that touch.
 
rhncue said:
What you seem to be missing is that the depth is the same as the width on a V-groove. It is a 90 deg angle at the bottom so for the point to be wide enough to touch at the circumference, it also has to be deep enough that it touches the other V-cuts at the bottom of the V. The only way around this would to be using a different deg cut than 90 such as a 120 but by doing so you have a lot of trouble trying to get the inlaying point the same angle for a good fit.

Dick
Click to expand...

Dick,

I did understand that the depth needed to be great to increase the width of the point, and if this is the reason for having the points to meet - just to make them wider - I just got the idea that some wider cutters could be used.

Anyway, I'll leave it for those who would like to have them wide to try it out.

As mentioned, it would need to be cut specially at the bandsaw or something to have the points glued in to the grooves.

K
 
Newton said:
I did understand that the depth needed to be great to increase the width of the point, and if this is the reason for having the points to meet - just to make them wider - I just got the idea that some wider cutters could be used.


K
Click to expand...

I have not tried using a wider angle cutter. I would think that as the prong was turned down that the gap if any between the points would get wider as the diameter decresed. When a 90 degree cutter is use and on center both sides of the cut ar perpandicular and will maintane a constant distance to the center of the prong. So cutting a wider angle to get points to just touch is almost impossible as they would touch untill prong was turned to finished size. Just my opinion so not worth that much.



Jim.
 
I do remember reading about one builder that used a different angle than a 90....105 degree or something like that. I think he was in the BB but don't recall names.
 
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