Dangers of having a non handicapped league with matches to 100?

[Positively Ralf]

Was talking with a fellow 14.1 league member and he suggested a league where all matches are to 100 with top 8 playoffs.

I've never ran a league but what problems would arise if you were to do something like that? I'm assuming the biggest problem would be the higher level player steamrolling everyone, even though that happens already in 9 ball leagues.

 

[slach]

I play in a non-handicapped 14.1 league, weekly match to 125, round robin, about 30 players, top 6 or so finishers in the money. Though lesser players get steamrolled (sometimes very badly) it's still a very popular league. As a lesser player I like it as an opportunity to learn first hand from the better guys and most everyone keeps coming back session to session. I think it's improved my game a lot, more then I would from a handicapped league. Some matches are mostly sitting and racking and that really drives home the fact that you need to stay on the table once you get there. You don't always get to hit a lot of balls, but there's always practice for that.

I think the biggest problem the organizers have is getting all the matches played by the end of the session for the money contenders. Some players out of the money aren't as motivated to get in all their matches other then the threat of being dis-invited to the next session.

 

[john coloccia]

I think the biggest problem the organizers have is getting all the matches played by the end of the session for the money contenders. Some players out of the money aren't as motivated to get in all their matches other then the threat of being dis-invited to the next session.

So they get dis-invited. Good riddance to bad rubbish,

 

[Wally in Cincy]

I would have to second what Slach said. We play to 100 once a week. Sometimes I might only get one win in 8 matches. But it is fun , good practice and always a learning experience. We don’t play on a particular night. We call the other players to schedule a match. The biggest problem is getting to people to get their matches in.

 

[stevekur1]

I play in a non-handicapped 14.1 league, weekly match to 125, round robin, about 30 players, top 6 or so finishers in the money. Though lesser players get steamrolled (sometimes very badly) it's still a very popular league. As a lesser player I like it as an opportunity to learn first hand from the better guys and most everyone keeps coming back session to session. I think it's improved my game a lot, more then I would from a handicapped league. Some matches are mostly sitting and racking and that really drives home the fact that you need to stay on the table once you get there. You don't always get to hit a lot of balls, but there's always practice for that.

I think the biggest problem the organizers have is getting all the matches played by the end of the session for the money contenders. Some players out of the money aren't as motivated to get in all their matches other then the threat of being dis-invited to the next session.

there's a fix for that players forfeiting when out of the running.

do what i do for my 14.1 league, and have a Wild Card. players most complete the season to be eligable for it !! wild card picks are based on how many wins they have per season. then come playoffs they nee to win their 1st match in playoffs to be elligible for money. if they lose 1st round that money that would of been theirs goes into 1st place. I've been doing this for many season and it keeps everyone honest and i dont have drop-outs for the reason of not in the running.
Also you need to come up with a make-up policy....i've been fighting this for many seasons now. and am firmly putting my foot down this season. (2 weeks to play match) if not played the original person to cancel gets a forfeit. the forfeit also effects their wild card. if they forfeit a match during season they are not in the running for wild card.
you can also collect a deposit at the beginning of the season. if they drop out the deposit get put into the league prize monies. if they complete the season they get the deposit back upon season completion.

 

[Wally in Cincy]

The way the Cincinnati Straight Pool League used to be run was this. All 32 players were split in two divisions, all skill levels mixed together. In the playoffs they would run 4 groups of 8 players, with players of similar skill level placed on the same board. That way I got to play higher level players in the regular season (and get my brains beat out) but in the playoffs I had a much better chance of winning.

Sometimes they would group 4 tiers in the regular season, based on skill level. I won that group one time undefeated I think, meaning I was the 25th best player out of 32. Whoopeee!

 

[stevekur1]

The way the Cincinnati Straight Pool League used to be run was this. All 32 players were split in two divisions, all skill levels mixed together. In the playoffs they would run 4 groups of 8 players, with players of similar skill level placed on the same board. That way I got to play higher level players in the regular season (and get my brains beat out) but in the playoffs I had a much better chance of winning.

Sometimes they would group 4 tiers in the regular season, based on skill level. I won that group one time undefeated I think, meaning I was the 25th best player out of 32. Whoopeee!

that's the way i do it. 4 Groups. last season i had 54 players. and this current season i have 44 because it rolls into summer. last season we had about 11k in prize money plus a custom cue built by Richard Hsu from Brooklyn NY for the season champion !!

 

[Positively Ralf]

Thanks for some of the advice. Really appreciate it.

BTW, someone seriously needs to consider putting in a system of sorts that can be used to bring back the amateur 14.1 championship.

 

[Wally in Cincy]

We pay $10 league fee (plus table time). Winner gets back $15 I think. Loser gets a little bit. Couple of bucks goes to a season ending party and skills contest.

 

[CESSNA10]

Wally
You describe yourself as a player who gets beat a lot, 25th best. Out of curiosity to
compare to myself, what sort of runs are you capable of. I frequently run in th20's occasisionlly
in the 30's but usually get out of position somewhere in the high 20's.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I would have to second what Slach said. We play to 100 once a week. Sometimes I might only get one win in 8 matches. But it is fun , good practice and always a learning experience. We don’t play on a particular night. We call the other players to schedule a match. The biggest problem is getting to people to get their matches in.

I would think best chance to minimize that from happening is to require players to pay the full fee up front to cover everything (including the table time for their matches) for the entire length of the league session. That gives a them a little more incentive to hang in there and continue to play their matches even when they've been eliminated from finishing high enough to win anything or qualify for the playoffs.

Yes, it may be humiliating for a player to lose by a very lopsided score to a far superior opponent, but as others have said, that's the best way to learn! However, I don't see these non-handicapped 14.1 leagues as being much a benefit to the clear top rated players, who except when they are playing each other, can steamroll through most of their matches. By contrast, if they have to give a considerably lower rated opponent a 50, 60, or even a 70 ball spot before they even start the race to 100 match, then they have to take it far more seriously and play a much smarter game.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Wally
You describe yourself as a player who gets beat a lot, 25th best. Out of curiosity to
compare to myself, what sort of runs are you capable of. I frequently run in th20's occasisionlly
in the 30's but usually get out of position somewhere in the high 20's.

If you frequently run in the 20s and occasionally in the 30s, that would easily put you among the top 14.1 players in our room, especially if you are ending your runs with a good safety as opposed to leaving you opponent an open, easy rack.

You can play very strong amateur level 14.1 running no more than 2 racks at a time if you play smart, and if your runs are ending by leaving your opponent without a shot or with an extremely tough shot.

 

[CESSNA10]

Thanks for the explanation

 

[14-1StraightMan]

I would think best chance to minimize that from happening is to require players to pay the full fee up front to cover everything (including the table time for their matches) for the entire length of the league session. That gives a them a little more incentive to hang in there and continue to play their matches even when they've been eliminated from finishing high enough to win anything or qualify for the playoffs.

Yes, it may be humiliating for a player to lose by a very lopsided score to a far superior opponent, but as others have said, that's the best way to learn! However, I don't see these non-handicapped 14.1 leagues as being much a benefit to the clear top rated players, who except when they are playing each other, can steamroll through most of their matches. By contrast, if they have to give a considerably lower rated opponent a 50, 60, or even a 70 ball spot before they even start the race to 100 match, then they have to take it far more seriously and play a much smarter game.

I totally agree with ChrisinNC… I have been running a 14.1 League in the Dallas area now for a few years. It is handicapped. That keeps players from being steamrolled. Plus, it is an incentive for the top players to knuckle down. Depending how many players sign up each season determines how many divisions. Next season I will have players going to 75, 90, 100, 110, 125 and myself to 175.... Great to hear about so many 14.1 leagues out there.

 

[Dan White]

Wally
You describe yourself as a player who gets beat a lot, 25th best. Out of curiosity to
compare to myself, what sort of runs are you capable of. I frequently run in th20's occasisionlly
in the 30's but usually get out of position somewhere in the high 20's.

Depends on what you mean by "frequently" in the 20's.

 

[CESSNA10]

Given a partially open table I will make to the 20's about 4 out of 5 times

 

[ChrisinNC]

Given a partially open table I will make to the 20's about 4 out of 5 times

That's pretty strong 14.1 playing - particularly if you can get in to the 30s+ at least once and maybe twice of those 4 times! It means 4/5 times you are able to completely run out the remaining rack and leave an ideal break ball and execute a successful break shot!

 

[Bob Jewett]

Given a partially open table I will make to the 20's about 4 out of 5 times

If that's your true percentage, there should be nothing stopping you from running 100 fairly frequently. That is, if you get to 20 from an open position 80% of the time, you should get to 40 64% of the time, and so on. The only thing that might hold you back would be a mental barrier when you get into uncharted territory.

 

[ChrisinNC]

If that's your true percentage, there should be nothing stopping you from running 100 fairly frequently. That is, if you get to 20 from an open position 80% of the time, you should get to 40 64% of the time, and so on. The only thing that might hold you back would be a mental barrier when you get into uncharted territory.

Bob, I agree. If Cessna10 is accurate with what he is claiming, there's no reason he hasn't yet run 100 balls, and he would certainly be considered among the higher levels of amateur 14.1 players, and could potentially hang with a pro level 14.1 player in a straight pool match to 100 or 150.

My high run is 98 on a 4-3/4" pocket 9-foot table, obtained nearly 20 years ago - I'm currently 62 year's old. I've rarely reached even a 50 ball run in the past 5+ years despite numerous frustrating attempts, although I realize that my chances are considerably hindered by limiting these 14.1 practice sessions to a 4-1/4" pocket table.

I would say when I'm practicing 14.1 and I set up an ideal break shot to start each run, realistically no more than 20% of the time can I get through the first rack with an ideal break shot set up to get in to the next rack, with a 20% chance for each successive rack. That computes to my chances of getting through 2 consecutive racks at any given time at 4%, the chances of getting through 3 racks (42 ball run) drops to less than 1%, etc, etc.

Probabilities tell me that based on the accuracy of those 20% odds to run a full rack and set up an ideal break ball, my chances of ever running 100 balls (7+ racks) is roughly 1 time in 8000 attempts. Even I'm able to increase my odds of running any given rack from the start from 20% up to 30%, my chances of ever running 100 balls (7+ racks), would still be less than 1 out of every 500 attempts. So realistically, I guess I need to start facing the grim reality that I'll never achieve my goal of a 100 ball run!

 

[14-1StraightMan]

Given a partially open table I will make to the 20's about 4 out of 5 times

Would like to see a video of a practice session.... We can get a better idea to where you stand with your skill level...… Maybe we can help with suggestions.