Declaration of "not an instructor" status -- do we have it all backwards?

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Focus on the minutia and you can ignore the main points or a rose by any other name.

Perhaps I should ask, What are the boundaries to which you refer?

Respecting boundaries, experience,, prior history. All of these are ways of establishing credentials.

Under credentials I think I listed nearly every way in which some people have attempted to restrict the input from other people. That is the issue.

My mistake. I confused 'credentials' with 'certificate' there for a minute. Sorry.

Yep. You are right. I'm definitely recommending restricted input in this forum. I've already presented my case as to why and I also stated many times what I meant by boundaries.
 


Myself for one.

I suspect there have been many who have offered advice here and did not ask a fee.

If parents instruct, educate or teach their children, are they not qualified because there is no fee?

My question was posed to see if you would elaborate on the correlation between instructor qualification and compensation. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear a valid argument....except to claim that you know of none. It would be nice to see some substance if indeed you contend that compensated instructors should be the standard.

I'm not sure that's your position...that's why I asked for clarity.

In my opinion, the fact that some or in your opinion...all instructors are compensated has no bearing on their ability to instruct.

Why should we use it as a benchmark to determine qualifications? Or better yet, why should we exclude those who aren't compensated when there are many who bring great value to the table?

My list does NOT have that as the only criteria.....of receving payment.... if you want to donate your time to the Park District, senior center, or local schools, no fee needed..... has anyone stepped up and done this.....

Just asking for some hands on experience where you have to go outside your comfort zone, and not "I give tips to the newbies" where I play, because that pretty much ecompasses anyone that has ever played the game of pool....
 
A question using myself as an example.

I have coached (taught) the three major sports to people of ages from 5 years old to young adults & some young aged & middle school golf. I have, as a coach, won 3 championships & coached several individuals to 1st., 2nd, & 3rd, place finishes in several season long golf competitions. I have been in the playoffs for nearly every team that I have coached. I know that coaching a team sport or even an individual in golf is not quite the same as giving lessons in pool on an individual bassis. However I have had to deal with players of very different talent & pesonality levels on an ongoing basis for many weeks even months at a time. Also, coaching at the non-professional levels is not just managing the team but much more about teaching/instructing on how to do something. In some but not all of those positions I was required to be 'certified'. I am now coaching & 'instructing' two retired gentlemen in pool with no certification & for no renumeration &... as many of you might know I have been playing pool for 46 years, since I was 13 yrs. old. Would I or someone like me be 'allowed' to express their opinoins in said forum?

Another point being that in most cases, because the 'student' is sight unseen, even the instuctor is just expressing an opinion, all be it from a much broader data base than non-professional instructors as Fran has so reasonably pointed out.

Also, it seems that a point is perhaps being confused in that the OP is not really asking for lessons. They are usually just asking for help with a particular issue that they are having. They seek advice & perhaps I or some other 'non-instuctor' has also had experience with that particular issue & can give good advise in that area.

I agree with JoeW that even a statement or question from a different viewpoint can be a catalyst of opportunity for further instruction & learning.

All that being said I understand Fran's ponit about boundaries but this 'boundary' has been broken & what we are now dicussing is how best if possible to restore it. I have had an idea or two that perhaps were not that well thought out due to technical difficulties. But a combintion of ideas might produce a solution.

I beileve I had a question in there somewhere. Oh Yeah, would someone LIKE me be allowed to express their opinions?

Best Wishes to All, Sincerely,
 
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Yeah, I think the whole thing gets very fuzzy and I wonder why. It seems that some of the certified instructors only teach fundamentals and some require (as I understand it) students to begin with their first fundamental course and then take courses in sequence. To some extent I wonder about the depth of their knowledge.

On the other hand I have been teaching people in our retirement community for over two years and have had more than ten people who wanted to learn more about the game. I do not consider myself a pool instructor in the sense the term is used in many areas of the forum. There are no fees involved as many people in our community help others learn about tennis, golf, or Pickle Ball (yeah there really is such a game). I begin where the person has a question and try to work from that point. I am the first to admit I don't know the answer to some technical question but will help them to find the answer. To some extent I guess I am perceived as one of the local "experts." This is a somewhat dubious distinction among a bunch of actively retired people.

I am a retired professor with over 25 years teaching experience and have created an archive of books and cds with over a thousand dollars worth of instructional materials for pool players. But I am not a pool instructor --- hmm.

Incidentally, since creating the collection many others in our community have contributed more items and we now have an extensive collection of stuff. It is amazing how some of these old codgers can learn new things :)
 
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Chicago:

Just asking for some hands on experience where you have to go outside your comfort zone, and not "I give tips to the newbies" where I play, because that pretty much ecompasses anyone that has ever played the game of pool....


I'm not sure what you're driving at here but if someone is seeking advice and their request is "outside" your comfort zone, then you should not be offering assistance....whether you hold a certification or not.

If you think you understand the situation and feel you have something to offer, then offer advise....whether you have a certification or not.
 
Yeah, I think the whole thing gets very fuzzy and I wonder why. It seems that some of the certified instructors only teach fundamentals and some require (as I understand it) students to begin with their first fundamental course and then take courses in sequence. To some extent I wonder about the depth of their knowledge.

On the other hand I have been teaching people in our retirement community for over two years and have had more than ten people who wanted to learn more about the game. I do not consider myself a pool instructor in the sense the term is used in many areas of the forum. There are no fees involved as many people in our community help others learn about tennis, golf, or Pickle Ball (yeah there really is such a game). I begin where the person has a question and try to work from that point. I am the first to admit I don't know the answer to some technical question but will help them to find the answer. To some extent I guess I am perceived as one of the local "experts." This is a somewhat dubious distinction among a bunch of actively retired people.

I am a retired professor with over 25 years teaching experience and have created an archive of books and cds with over a thousand dollars worth of instructional materials for pool players. But I am not a pool instructor --- hmm.

What's wrong with fuzzy? Very few things are ever crystal clear. Many people who post here will often write: "I am not an instructor." (That's the purpose this thread was started in the fist place.) They seem to have no problem figuring out for themselves whether or not they feel they are instructors.
 
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I think that what is wrong with fuzzy is the way in which some of the pool instructors on this and other sub-forums proceed. They often begin by castigating others or challenging posters to present their qualifications to provide an answer. This has a withering effect on people who may be knowledgeable but do not consider themselves a pool instructor. It implies that only some people are “qualified” by virtue of their willingness to identify themselves as a pool instructor.

I suspect that there are people who do not post with regard to a topic because they know they will be challenged and do not want to go through the verbal wars that ensue. With the many twists and turns that the definition of an instructor takes it becomes and effective tool to shut people down.

While you have your preferred definition of why this sub-forum was started it is not the only definition as I indicated in a prior post. You may disagree with me but it is equally likely that this is a sub-forum for people who want to learn from anyone who will instruct them.

Attempting to shut people down is not conducive to a good learning environment. Any student in the room should be encouraged to reply to a post. It is up to the “real” instructors to use these comments to teach the best available knowledge.

Resorting to the idea that only some authority can answer a question is, in my thinking, arrogant.
 
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I think that what is wrong with fuzzy is the way in which some of the pool instructors on this and other sub-forums proceed. They often begin by castigating others or challenging posters to present their qualifications to provide an answer. This has a withering effect on people who may be knowledgeable but do not consider themselves a pool instructor. It implies that only some people are “qualified” by virtue of their willingness to identify themselves as a pool instructor.

I suspect that there are people who do not post with regard to a topic because they know they will be challenged and do not want to go through the verbal wars that ensue. With the many twists and turns that the definition of an instructor takes it becomes and effective tool to shut people down.

While you have your preferred definition of why this sub-forum was started it is not the only definition as I indicated in a prior post. You may disagree with me but it is equally likely that this is a sub-forum for people who want to learn from anyone who will instruct them.

Attempting to shut people down is not conducive to a good learning environment. Any student in the room should be encouraged to reply to a post. It is up to the “real” instructors to use these comments to teach the best available knowledge.

Resorting to the idea that only some authority can answer a question is, in my thinking, arrogant.

I'm not at all against changing the intent of the forum. If Mike and Jerry want to change it to something like: "Billiard Classroom" that would be fine by me. I'll be happy to oblidge. Right now, though, it's the "ask the instructor" forum.

One of the most important lessons I've learned in life is that better to change the rules than to try to reinterpret or ratinalize them to suit one's purpose. That's when things really get out of hand.
 
This whole thing is interesting to me.

I am conflicted in so many ways. I'm not an instructor but I have been guilty of jumping in here and giving advice a couple of times, but at the same time I think I probably shouldn't have. The forum is titled: Ask the Instructor. I think RJ is right, in that this forum was never intended to be the - Ask the Best Player out of Your Group of Friends a Question Forum.

There are 3 reasons I'm conflicted about this:

First, the Main Forum is getting boring to me. In here at least there is often some really interesting discussion about fundamentals, which I believe are the real nuts and bolts of pool. I'm bored with all the discussion about tips, chalk, and LD shafts.

Second, I know there are a lot of non-instructors out there like me, that know just as much about this game, as a few instructors that you find posting regularly in this forum. Now, maybe we don't have the insight that comes from dealing with hundreds of players on a personal level and reading about say - how an instructor solved a particular problem for one player a certain way, but then had to take a different route for a different player. Sadly, this sort of discussion doesn't happen much in this forum though.

And thirdly, quite often I find reputable instructors offering a difference of opinion on just about EVERYTHING when it comes to the fundamentals of pool. I've seen differences of opinion on all of the following: Bridge length, backstroke pause, head position, aiming techniques, more recently the bending of the knees, length of the backstroke, eye dominance, and the list could go on forever. The question becomes if reputable instructors have differences of opinion on all of the above techniques, what is there consensus on?

The fact that there really isn't a set of core fundamental principles that the instructors on this forum agree on, really makes me scratch my head. I think this lack of consensus is the main reason why so many non-instructors chime in so often, well at least for me it is.

Having said all this, unless I hear otherwise from the moderators, I will no longer participate in this forum unless I have a question to ask. I will respect the fact that the forum title is: Ask the Instructor.
 
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.

I am a retired professor with over 25 years teaching experience and have created an archive of books and cds with over a thousand dollars worth of instructional materials for pool players. But I am not a pool instructor --- hmm.

:)

Again, you looking for things that are just not there. Whom advised that you are NOT an instructor? By my very definition, you are, since you teach at the senior center..... But certainly, you can understand that not everyone is, right ??
 
Chicago:



I'm not sure what you're driving at here but if someone is seeking advice and their request is "outside" your comfort zone, then you should not be offering assistance....whether you hold a certification or not.

If you think you understand the situation and feel you have something to offer, then offer advise....whether you have a certification or not.

"outside" your comfort zone means actually teaching or instructing pool other than your buddies at a pool hall.... It means standing in front of a group of seniors, or 8th graders, or putting on a clinic for your league members to attend, or giving one on one pool lessons, etc.etc.....

Again, please stop playing the certification game.... NOBODY mentions that except you and Joe....

I'm not certified to coach baseball, but I do just that, and have been doing it for 30 years. If there was a baseball forum about "ask the coach," yes, i would chime in because I have actual coaching experience, certified or not.

But it is just that, actual, hands on experience coaching at various levels....not just answering questions on an internet site because I know the answer..... seems kinda silly when you think about it... I mean, if you wanna instruct pool, then do it, nobody is stopping you, but you really need to go out and do it first before you become an internet expert imho......
 
I said
If you think you understand the situation and feel you have something to offer, then offer advice....whether you have a certification or not.

You said
I'm not certified to coach baseball, but I do just that, and have been doing it for 30 years. If there was a baseball forum about "ask the coach," yes, i would chime in because I have actual coaching experience, certified or not.


It seems to me that you have simply confirmed what I was saying.
I suspect if that's true then we are on the same page.
 
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Sean,

Thank you for the compliments. Why anyone would question the value of becoming an instructor based on my own interest is a bit comical.
The teacher’s that teach the young of America and prepare them to become the leaders of tomorrow are constantly learning.
They are required to take classes to get their master’s degree. Why the heck would anyone think, hey why do they need to learn if they are teaching?
Teaching others is one of the best ways to learn any skill.

The "you" in my post was to address anyone who chooses to read the post and felt it was pertinent to themselves.
If the reader doesn't feel it pertained to them, then it didn't I could have said the word “anyone”
but I thought the word “you” would read more pointed.

I hope this makes some form of practical sense!

I am going to make one last post regarding this subject. I hope this is listened to closely because it is not pool related.
As a manufacturing engineer, I went to college and earned a Bachelors Degree.
That was the culmination of 16 yrs of education in an accredited curriculum (elementary, high school, and college).

That means "something" when you are job hunting, especially the first time after obtaining the education.
Does that mean I will do a good job, or even qualified at the position I am applying? No.
Does it mean that is the only requirement for an open position, or I am the best candidate?
No, someone with years of experience without the formal education can also be (and in most cases, are more) qualified than someone with just an education.

What it does mean is I went through a plan of study and have a specific minimum comprehension of agreed upon pertinent subject matter. 3
Training and experience was still required, and that is why it is difficult for many people to get that first job after college.
I have worked with colleagues who did not have a formal education, but their 'on the job" training made them phenomenal assets to our team,
and taught me things I could have never learned in class.

That is why in my career there are additional "certification" programs for professionals.
There is no way to learn ALL the information during a certification class, most of that knowledge had already been obtained.
The process of certifications is nothing more that someone else stating, "This person meets the minimum requirements defined for this title".
How that person obtained the knowledge and how long it takes them to obtain that knowledge should not be criticized. It really should be applauded!

One last professional example: the accountant compared to the CPA.
A CPA tends to be in more demand than an accountant. A CPA has passed a very difficult exam, licensed by the state.
An accountant probably just graduated an accredited program. Do I need a CPA? It depends on my needs or preference.
Is the CPA at 25 yrs old “better” than the older accountant who has done the job for 46 years?
Who knows, but the state he was certified (our government) says he is qualified for certain tasks.
The accountant who has not passed the CPA examination is not qualified.

If anyone who posts here doesn’t like any certification criteria, create a new criteria.
See if the revision is accepted and implemented for whatever certification you are concerned with its degree of difficulty to obtain.
Squabbling in a public forum over what is or isn’t does not benefit those who you are trying to help.
Oshua has already made this point and I couldn't agree more!

I had told friends of mine hey check out this thread and see what people are saying about me.
This was to entice them to use the forum and hopefully get them even more interested into pool.
Now, I will no longer refer them to my original thread because of the bickering.
THAT has been a net affect of the discussions about certifications.

I don't think anyone is knocking certifications. They're not a bad thing.

I made a post earlier saying that a certified instructor doesn't guarantee someone is a great pool instructor --- that's a stone cold fact. Just like not having one doesn't mean someone is a horrible instructor --- that's a stone cold fact.

You can't compare pool instruction to CPAs versus a book-keeper. You also can't compare pool instruction to something really academic, like medicine, science or in your case engineering. If you want to compare pool instruction to anything, it might be something trade-based like plumbing or carpentry.

In each trade, you really start as an apprentice to a journeyman (or something similar). In each of those examples, there are a ton of different ways to do stuff, some are far better than others. That's how pool instruction works -- and some work better for some than others.

How do tell the best carpenter among a group of 20 if you're looking to have a deck built? Simple--- it's outcome based. See who made the nicest deck, not someone with the most certificates. Who is the best pool instructor? Probably the one with the most successful students (the biggest delta in ability from the time they met the instructor until they stopped). Also, probably the instructor with the most positive feedback.

Although pool is complicated-- teachers that simplify and reduce the game to the lowest common denominator are the most successful. If your brain processes pool "in the infinite" -- you'll never improve.

That said -- I've found pool instruction to be similar to the "academic" side of learning in a few ways. I've found that certain instructors are better in some areas than others and vice-versa. I think the best instructors are actually "specialists" -- those who take one subset of pool and REALLY master it (think about how many kinds of engineers there are).

Therefore, it's not crazy to think one could benefit from multiple instructors---- the way golfers have a short game coach, swing coach and maybe a putting coach. Some may also have sports psychologists as well for the mental side.

I almost never post in this section, but when I do I'm posting rock-solid information based on the question and I post with 100% conviction. Although I've made decent money with pool lessons, I'm don't think of myself as a teacher/instructor. I don't care to and I don't have the time. I've helped produce pool instructional material -- so would something like that count? Eh - who cares.

People that post here usually know they can without being torn apart because what they say is correct. Those without that level of certainty won't keep posting, even if they do. So this entire subject is a moot point.
 
I'm trying to figure out who feels that only credentialed people should answer questions here. I've been following this ever since the thread I started way back on this topic and haven't come across any posts by anyone of that nature. Have I missed something, maybe in another thread?

Can you quote a post where someone said that? I'm thinking maybe you're misread my earlier post way back at the beginning, but I'm not sure. I don't recall anyone saying that.

Fran, you're WITHOUT A DOUBT--- repeating: WITHOUT A DOUBT one of the best instructors out there today. I have no clue whether or not you're certified nor do I care. I base my opinion on the fact that it's rare I learn new exciting things and I've learned a few techniques from you that work well. This entire certification discussion here is a distraction.
 
Dave...I agree, up to a point. The student will only improve based on their dedication to following the prescribed information/routine conveyed. That's one of the principle reasons why we, as instructors, cannot teach someone how to become a better player. What we can teach them, is how to teach THEMSELVES how to become better...through techniques that are time-tested, with thousands of applications. I think your idea of being able to "rate" instruction with a 'star-based' system is a great idea. You're the IT guy...come up with an app, and create the site. It can even be income-driven!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

You're exactly right - learning is a two-way street. Teaching a tomato how to be a rocket scientist results in having a frustrated tomato.

That said, there are always more serious students than not when it comes to investing a fair amount of money in pool instruction. I'm sure (you would know more than anyone) that there are people who flat-out BLOW tons of cash on pool lessons and do nothing w/ it (actually, an annoying guy who used to post here all the time comes to mind). More often than not, if someone spends hundreds of dollars for lessons, they'll work at it. Most of those would love to provide feedback (and read the feedback of others to see where their next lesson will come from).

I think an app store-like comment/rating system for instructors would be huge. You could sort the list from 5-starts/down and begin to read comments to help you choose. Nobody downloads apps with 1 star ratings because they don't want to waste their money.

A permanent, averaged, on-going rating system for instructors would force the cream to the top. Success would breed further success. Slap-ass instructors would be forced to improve or get a permanent bad rep. In fact, students should also be rated by the instructor and have the same rating. That way, instructors know ahead of time if they want to accept them as a student. Also, students with crap ratings cannot affect the teachers rating average as much as a highly-rated student. That way, if a great instructor accepts a crap student and the student knocks the instructor with a 1-star rating, it'd be like running into a bug with your windshield-- you might get a small amount of guts on you but you just wipe them away and move on.

I think I can make that if there's interest.

P.S. Maybe if there's a PBIA instructor w/ a bad rating average, you rescind the certification or force a re-cert. Conversely, if there's a non-certified instructor with a bad average--- it's a lead for the PBIA, right? You'd probably want to invite them into your program. Obviously, highly rated instructors (certified or not) wouldn't require action.
 
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Dave...I would certainly be interested! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I think an app store-like comment/rating system for instructors would be huge. You could sort the list from 5-starts/down and begin to read comments to help you choose. Nobody downloads apps with 1 star ratings because they don't want to waste their money.

A permanent, averaged, on-going rating system for instructors would force the cream to the top. Success would breed further success.

I think I can make that if there's interest.
 
After reading through seven pages of this (and also previous similar topics), I have resolved to add my advice wherever I feel fit.

I agree with JoeW's version of many teachers and students communicating together to learn.

If you don't like what you read, don't use it. I don't feel a need to justify my qualifications to anyone, nor should anyone else.

-s
 
After reading through seven pages of this (and also previous similar topics), I have resolved to add my advice wherever I feel fit.

I agree with JoeW's version of many teachers and students communicating together to learn.

If you don't like what you read, don't use it. I don't feel a need to justify my qualifications to anyone, nor should anyone else.

-s

Of course, you will sign your name to said advice you provide, correct ?
 
Of course, you will sign your name to said advice you provide, correct ?

not as such.

If you pursue finding out who I am, I will not hide, though.

Sharing information does not require any such thing, especially on a free online forum. The information or experience shared should have value on its own.

-s
 
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