Defining a true one pocket player

one pocket player :

one who's cardinal desire is to play one pocket.

on the other hand a true "great" one pocket player is one who's pocketing skills, knowledge of the what makes pocketing difficult and his ability to execute both determine his greatness.

i swear i read this somewhere! ;) :D
 
Cory in DC said:
Not to disagree, but just to add a bit of context. It's been a while so my memory is vague, but I think you're talking about The Shark Club (5 or 6 tables, BYOB, 24 hours, poker in the back room.) If so, then the loosest table there was really tight, and the tightest one was tighter than a triple-shimmed table. I think that type of table really favors the home player. Even among pure one pocket players, that type of table should favor the "mover" over the "shooter," relatively speaking.
Cory


Hi Cory, You're memory is mostly right, except it was called Pool Sharks, not the Shark Club - and as you remembered, the tables did have some mighty tight pockets....It was a great action place, while it lasted.
 
1 Pocket Ghost said:
....First of all, I have to disagree with the posters on the Sigel thread who said that Sigel is an excellent one pocket player - he's not, and wasn't = Winning a one pocket tournament and running 8 and out 5 times in a row to beat Strawberry doesn't make you an excellent one pocket player - that isn't even one pocket,

For someone who's not and wasn't an excellent one pocket player, his name shows up several times in the One Pocket Records. 3 times in first and 4 seconds:

http://www.onepocket.org/records.htm
 
Counterpunch

BackPocket9Ball said:
I disagree 1PocketGhost.

I've been thinking a lot about this lately, and frankly, what determines the better one pocket player is the player who wins, plain and simple.

If Mike Sigel shot straighter than other, more knowledgable one pocket players, and this enabled him to beat them, then he was the better one pocket player.

If I gamble with someone at one pocket even up and I lose because I don't shoot as straight as they do, I still lose -- even if I know the strategy and the moves better. If I play Earl Strickland one pocket, I need a spot from him to win -- even if I know the strategy and the moves better. I can't just step up and say that I'm a better one pocket player than Earl Strickland or Mike Sigel or any player who shoots that strong.



And obviously the best one pocket players will be those who shoot and move and bank strong, ie Efren and Cliff. But if Mike Sigel were to consistently beat Tom Wirth playing one pocket, then Mike Sigel is the better one pocket player.


Backpocket, I'm familiar with your take ( and others ) on this, and I have to disagree with your disagreement ^_^....I'ts also possible that this comes down to semantics, but I don't think so.

....To use your example, you said..."If I play Earl Strickland one pocket, I need a spot from him to win -- even if I know the strategy and the moves better. I can't just step up and say that I'm a better one pocket player than Earl Strickland"....Hypothetically ( or for real, as the case may be ) If you're a solid shortstop speed player, and you know the moves and strategies much better, and play much smarter than Earl, and let's say he beats you 3 to 2 all 10 times you two played races to three - I still say that you're the better one pocket player - it's just that his pool skills are sufficiently superior to yours to beat you even though you're the better one pocket player.

The opposing viewpoint to mine on this question believes that whoever gets the cash is the better player, period. I don't think that this is a correct analysis. I don't think winning is the be-all and end-all determinant....Let me make an analogy....
....
....Let's consider two great boxers from the 70's-80's - Sugar Ray Leonard and Alexis Arguello. They were both stone-cold champions and they were technically brilliant boxers - they had the whole package. So if these two were to fight a boxer with not even half of the technical skills and knowledge that they have, but he's a heavyweight so he knocks them out, is the heavyweight a better boxer than they are - I don't think so....and let's say a tennis player beats a better all-around tennis player than himself only because he has a 140 mph unreturnable serve - who's the better tennis player.....similar analogies can be made in many other sports as well.
 
1 Pocket Ghost said:
Backpocket, I'm familiar with your take ( and others ) on this, and I have to disagree with your disagreement ^_^....I'ts also possible that this comes down to semantics, but I don't think so.

....To use your example, you said..."If I play Earl Strickland one pocket, I need a spot from him to win -- even if I know the strategy and the moves better. I can't just step up and say that I'm a better one pocket player than Earl Strickland"....Hypothetically ( or for real, as the case may be ) If you're a solid shortstop speed player, and you know the moves and strategies much better, and play much smarter than Earl, and let's say he beats you 3 to 2 all 10 times you two played races to three - I still say that you're the better one pocket player - it's just that his pool skills are sufficiently superior to yours to beat you even though you're the better one pocket player.
The opposing viewpoint to mine on this question believes that whoever gets the cash is the better player, period. I don't think that this is a correct analysis. I don't think winning is the be-all and end-all determinant....Let me make an analogy....
....
....Let's consider two great boxers from the 70's-80's - Sugar Ray Leonard and Alexis Arguello. They were both stone-cold champions and they were technically brilliant boxers - they had the whole package. So if these two were to fight a boxer with not even half of the technical skills and knowledge that they have, but he's a heavyweight so he knocks them out, is the heavyweight a better boxer than they are - I don't think so....and let's say a tennis player beats a better all-around tennis player than himself only because he has a 140 mph unreturnable serve - who's the better tennis player.....similar analogies can be made in many other sports as well.


Lets not forget that one pocket IS pool.

Your analogy is very good however. I could say WRONG though and come to a middle ground by saying the heavyweight is a better boxer ONLY BECAUSE he's bigger, but I get your point. Nice job!
 
are you being serious?

1 Pocket Ghost said:
Backpocket, I'm familiar with your take ( and others ) on this, and I have to disagree with your disagreement ^_^....I'ts also possible that this comes down to semantics, but I don't think so.

....To use your example, you said..."If I play Earl Strickland one pocket, I need a spot from him to win -- even if I know the strategy and the moves better. I can't just step up and say that I'm a better one pocket player than Earl Strickland"....Hypothetically ( or for real, as the case may be ) If you're a solid shortstop speed player, and you know the moves and strategies much better, and play much smarter than Earl, and let's say he beats you 3 to 2 all 10 times you two played races to three - I still say that you're the better one pocket player - it's just that his pool skills are sufficiently superior to yours to beat you even though you're the better one pocket player.

The opposing viewpoint to mine on this question believes that whoever gets the cash is the better player, period. I don't think that this is a correct analysis. I don't think winning is the be-all and end-all determinant....Let me make an analogy....
....
....Let's consider two great boxers from the 70's-80's - Sugar Ray Leonard and Alexis Arguello. They were both stone-cold champions and they were technically brilliant boxers - they had the whole package. So if these two were to fight a boxer with not even half of the technical skills and knowledge that they have, but he's a heavyweight so he knocks them out, is the heavyweight a better boxer than they are - I don't think so....and let's say a tennis player beats a better all-around tennis player than himself only because he has a 140 mph unreturnable serve - who's the better tennis player.....similar analogies can be made in many other sports as well.


How did u make your mouth move to say that???
 
i don't understand this

billychips said:
How did u make your mouth move to say that???
How can you say that someone who constantly and repeatedly is beaten by another is still the superior player. In boxing, sometimes it is more about the matchups. However, last time I checked, the better player in 1 pocket had to pocket 8 balls first. Take Scott Frost and Corey D. for example. All the one pocket gurus, I am guessing yourself included, are going to say how much better of a one pocket player Scott is than Corey. Scott plays the game the way "they" expect the game to be played. Corey on the other had, while a genius at the game in his own right, is very unorthodox and basically just runs out from everywhere. He has thoroughly DOMINATED Scott every time they have played. Do you mean to tell me that Scott is still the better player. Maybe Corey's way of viewing the game and style of playing is just simply better than Scott's, or that of conventional one pocket wisdom.
Another example could be this years Miami Heat. They have 2 dominant superstars on their team. The Detroit Pistons have 4 All Stars and a very good (maybe ther best) player, Tayshawn Prince. Detroit, according to the so called experts, were supposed to a better team, yet in the playoffs, they were crushed by Miami. Would you still suggest that Detroit is the better team, despite the results???
 
you are right

1 Pocket Ghost said:
Evidently, in a way that your eyes can't perceive.
Obviously you just think on a level that is light years ahead of me. I congratulate you on this., but seriouly, i guess thats why they have forums, for people to debate.
 
billychips said:
How can you say that someone who constantly and repeatedly is beaten by another is still the superior player. In boxing, sometimes it is more about the matchups. However, last time I checked, the better player in 1 pocket had to pocket 8 balls first. Take Scott Frost and Corey D. for example. All the one pocket gurus, I am guessing yourself included, are going to say how much better of a one pocket player Scott is than Corey. Scott plays the game the way "they" expect the game to be played. Corey on the other had, while a genius at the game in his own right, is very unorthodox and basically just runs out from everywhere. He has thoroughly DOMINATED Scott every time they have played. Do you mean to tell me that Scott is still the better player. Maybe Corey's way of viewing the game and style of playing is just simply better than Scott's, or that of conventional one pocket wisdom.
Another example could be this years Miami Heat. They have 2 dominant superstars on their team. The Detroit Pistons have 4 All Stars and a very good (maybe ther best) player, Tayshawn Prince. Detroit, according to the so called experts, were supposed to a better team, yet in the playoffs, they were crushed by Miami. Would you still suggest that Detroit is the better team, despite the results???

You said > "However, last time I checked, the better player in 1 pocket had to pocket 8 balls first"......Ah, no, it's the winner that has to pocket 8 balls first.

But, you've got me pegged wrong on Corey. I think Corey is a great one pocket player, and underrated - as a matter of fact I've said this many times. I think his imagination and cueball skills are killer....And in a thread that was on here around last winter where some of us were ranking one pocket players - I rated Corey in a tie for 3rd best after Efren and Cliff.
 
ok

1 Pocket Ghost said:
You said > "However, last time I checked, the better player in 1 pocket had to pocket 8 balls first"......Ah, no, it's the winner that has to pocket 8 balls first.

But, you've got me pegged wrong on Corey. I think Corey is a great one pocket player, and underrated - as a matter of fact I've said this many times. I think his imagination and cueball skills are killer....And in a thread that was on here around last winter where some of us were ranking one pocket players - I rated Corey in a tie for 3rd best after Efren and Cliff.
I was using Corey as an example. I still do not see how you can not view the player who consistently wins as the better player. I understand your line of reasoning to a degree, however, when one player consistently defeats another, as in the example that you spoke of, I can not see how a rational person would not consider them the better player. Can I ask who you considered Corey to be tied with???
 
!!!

billychips said:
I was using Corey as an example. I still do not see how you can not view the player who consistently wins as the better player. I understand your line of reasoning to a degree, however, when one player consistently defeats another, as in the example that you spoke of, I can not see how a rational person would not consider them the better player. Can I ask who you considered Corey to be tied with???
And PLEASE don't suggest it is Scott Frost!!!
 
1 Pocket Ghost said:
So if these two were to fight a boxer with not even half of the technical skills and knowledge that they have, but he's a heavyweight so he knocks them out, is the heavyweight a better boxer than they are - I don't think so.....

1PG,
I like the analogy. You are speaking to the "art and science" of the game. We straight pool fanatics have similar arguments about the style of players (see the Accu-Stats match between Earl Strickland and an aged Johnny Ervolino for a great discussion).

Of course to really assess this area would require judges to rank the relative knowledge and creativity of the players- something I hope pool never has to endure. But I love the discussions.

P.S. - I'm hoping to have Danny D. visit soon to get me started on some one-pocket. Be sure to let me know if you are in the area and would like to play.
 
Great post............Frankly I think it is about playing the percenatges. Great safties are needed no matter if your playing a guy who can make balls from anywhere or not. I read a post not to long ago where someone asked marshal carpenter " if a shooter wins over a mover ?". Marshal said a good shooter almost always wins. Age old debate i know...............
 
billychips said:
Can I ask who you considered Corey to be tied with???


billy, I don't think there's a clear 3rd best, but along with Corey, I would put Alex 'the lion' and Larry Nevel in that group.
 
[QUOTE
....Let's consider two great boxers from the 70's-80's - Sugar Ray Leonard and Alexis Arguello. They were both stone-cold champions and they were technically brilliant boxers - they had the whole package. So if these two were to fight a boxer with not even half of the technical skills and knowledge that they have, but he's a heavyweight so he knocks them out, is the heavyweight a better boxer than they are - I don't think so....and let's say a tennis player beats a better all-around tennis player than himself only because he has a 140 mph unreturnable serve - who's the better tennis player.....similar analogies can be made in many other sports as well.[/QUOTE]

I don't think your arguement holds. The object of the game of one pocket is to get 8 balls in your pocket before your oponent. If the better shooter can do that, he's better than the mover. Bottom line, if the mover can't get 8 balls in his pocket first, despite all of his hard earned knowledge, he's not as good as the shooter who runs 8 and out. The only way the mover can be considered a better one pocket player is if his style and strategy earns him the win. Lots of over the hill players have more knowledge and experience than the young guns of today, but they can't beat the young guys. Can they claim to be better? No.

Alex
 
I think Einstein said it best...

I think Einstein said it best...

Imagination is more important than knowledge...
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

I've been playing for two years and were I'm no move artist or the straightest shooter but I feel I get the most out of having the imagination to see the possibility...having the experience to weight up the risk/reward ratio and being gifted enough to execute what my mind has decided. Cory is 12 on a scale of 10 on imagination = GREAT ONE POCKET PLAYER.

Nick
 
1 Pocket Ghost said:
You said > "However, last time I checked, the better player in 1 pocket had to pocket 8 balls first"......Ah, no, it's the winner that has to pocket 8 balls first.

OK, I can accept your arguement if you said "so and so is the better one pocket player... but he can't get there against a great shooter" or something like that. Otherwise it just plain doesn't make sense. I mean just think about what you're saying.

Bring it down a few notches to regular pool players. Local levels. I'm sure you know plenty of old guys that know MUCH more about one pocket than the better 9 ball players in town but can't win in any game against them. would you argue that they are better one pocket players than the local 9 ball players that drum them week in and week out? I doubt it, because they are just people with better knowledge than others, they can't translate that into beating anyone. The same logic should hold at the top levels.

Alex
 
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