Defining a true one pocket player

REAL one pocket is about knowledge.

I've played the guys who just run out, and while it IS quite annoying, I DESERVE IT if i was the one who left them a shot in the first place.

So when i play people that are capable of running out from everywhere, instead of playing around the stack hoping to beat them to the shot and possibly run out myself, i just send EVERYTHING uptable right out of the gate, and that is it.
SQUEEZE THEM!!!
It effectively castrates them, END OF STORY.

I've also played people who are a few speeds lower then me that are one pocket enthusiasts, and they give me a MUCH better game then the pure shotmaker/9ball player, simply because of what they know.

I even offered a ridiculous spot to a guy who shoots very straight to play a game of one pocket, with the balls racked UPTABLE, and the opening break made from downtable just to take out that run out possibility. He thought the spot was stealing.
He quit after he lost 3 games feeling humiliated. He has not played me since.

If pocketing ability is equal, the one pocket player is gonna gain an advantage just by knowing more, and being more creative then the guy who just knows how to shoot. When the shooters are put to the one pocket test, and are stuck in a situation that calls for a move, or intentional foul, they fail.
I can't tell you how many times i've won a game when i just took a scratch, instead of trying negotiate some ridiculously impossible situation, soley because they then were so confident of their ability, that THEY tried to get out of the situation, and sold the farm.

A PERFECT EXAMPLE of what i am talking about it when i watch Lee Holt play PATCH the one eyed guy EVEN.
Now for those of you who know Lee, you know that he is one of the straightest shooters around, and i consistently see patch give him a good game just because he puts Lee in situations that he has no idea what to do.
If it were a 9 ball game, he might be able to give PATCH the 5 out, but it's because of PATCH'S superior knowledge, and his uncanny gift for good ball speed on moves, that he is able to avoid being totally dominated.

He LAGS a ball near his hole, and rolls the cue ball up against another ball, and Lee is in no mans land, and PATCH is maybe 50 years older than Lee.

That is not to say, that someone who shoots straight can't LEARN how to move (which Lee has), but that means more time playing one pocket, and thus transforms them into a fledgling one pocket player.
 
In 90-91 I saw a local (I think) from Cleveland beat Dennis Hatch out of a few grand playing one pocket.When I asked around everyone said if they switch to nine ball the local needed the 6 out.I've been hooked on one pocket ever since.
 
Just ask 'em

Define a true One pocket player? Just ask 'em. All those who believe and have pride in their 1pkt game will vehemently proclaim that they are 1pkt players! All those who just have run out skills will back away from the question and not make a firm affirmation as to be a true 1pkt player. Ask Mike Siegel if he is a 1pkt player or many other guys like him. They might bark back that they play good and will play, etc., etc., but they will never truthfully proclaim to be true 1pkt'ers. On the other hand all true 1pkt players will cheerfully admit to being one.

the Beard
 
So soon that people forget a recent real good example that occured at Hardtimes Sacramento. Tony Chohan tortures Dennis Orcullo in 1P yet doesn't think that he's got good odds against Dennis in 9ball even with the wild7.
 
I think this whole thread boils down to semantics. There are two debates going on...

1) What constitutes a "true one pocket player"?

2) Who is the "better one pocket player"?

I think these two questions ask two totally different things. The first question is pretty subjective. Define it how you like, but I would generally agree with the first post of this thread, at least regarding the first question.

As for the second question, I think this answer can be answered pretty objectively since it's a comparative question. The "better" player is the one who consistently wins more in the long-run. Plain and simple. I don't care if the winner is Corey Deuel, Earl Strickland, George Bush, or my one-year-old baby daughter, if this person consistently beats the other in one-pocket, than this person is the better one-pocket player...period. To reason otherwise is simply illogical. Of course, the definition of "consistently" can be subjective. ;)
 
I say that the "better" one pocket player will overcome the shooter in the long run. I have seen Cliff give up some HUGE spots playing one pocket to players that can beat the 9 ball ghost and Cliff tortured them. A true great one pocket player knows how to manuver to take the shooters most deadly weapon, his shooting ability, out of play. Yeah, the shooter will get out of a trap every now and then, but in the long run...the one pocket player will prevail.

Southpaw
 
1 Pocket Ghost, I think your boxing analogy is off, because you're saying that a larger boxer might beat a more skillful one because of his size, and this is an unfair advantage, and doesn't make the big guy "the better boxer". I'd agree, but I don't think it applies to one pocket.

In the case of the person with better shotmaking and positional abilities vs. the person with better "moves", we're talking skill vs. skill. Both players had to work very hard to develop and hone their strengths, and both of them have cultivated great skills that are useful in one pocket. There's no unfair advantage involved here like the size advantage in boxing.

Also, the whole point of "moves" in 1 pocket are to keep your opponent from running out. If your moves don't do that, you need to re-examine the idea of using them! In one pocket, more than any other pool game, you're playing your opponent, as opposed to playing the table. Tactics that allow your opponent the opportunity to get out are bad tactics, and if your tactics are bad, you're not a good one pocket player. On the other hand, if his offense is so good that you don't ever even get the opportunity to lock him up, that's an illustration of the age-old principle that the best defense is a good offense. There's no reason to let your opponent to the table, no matter how bad a position you leave him in, if you can end the game instead. I would say the person that runs out all the time has perfect tactics.

-Andrew
 
1 Pocket Ghost said:
I had been meaning to write this thread for awhile and the recent thread asking about Mike Sigel's one pocket skills prompted me to finally write it....

Imo, what defines a pure, excellent one pocket player is that along with having excellent ball pocketing and position play skills....He is a player who knows 95%-100% of all moves, and ALWAYS analyzes the options/percentages correctly when deciding how, and in what manner he can aggressively attack his opponent every inning that he comes to the table - And if there is no offensive option available, he will play a killer safety with perfect cueball control.....Two players from the past who come to mind as being this kind of pure and champion level one pocket player are Artie Bodendorfer and the "Cookie Monster" - Steve Cook.

In these current times, obviously Efren, and secondly Cliff, are stone-cold one pocket champions in every facet of the game, and with superior pool skills to go with...But I'm going to give an example ( there are many more, past and present ) of two one pocket players who although they are far less than champion level pool players ( more like strong shortstop level ) they are true, pure, excellent one pocket players - some of you will have never heard of them, and some of you will know them very well...

....Tom Wirth from the Maryland/DC area ( hey Jam, I know you know Tom and his game well ) and Bob Herchik from Vegas. These two guys aren't champions but they are pure one pocket players....Tom has had many high finishes in major one pocket tournaments and, under the radar-Bob Herchik opened eyes with his 3rd place finish in the derby city one pocket in 2005. Now at the DCC one pocket tournament, these two guys might draw champions who are not really one pocket players like - Johnny Archer, or Earl Strickland, or Bustamante, or Marcus Chamat, and lose to them, but even if they lost, Wirth and Herchik are in fact the excellent ONE POCKET players - not these champions that beat them.
Click to expand...

"GREAT POST" Watching Cliff Joyner in the action room at 2006 DCC was a perfect example of what you state... Interesting that you didn't mention Ronnie Allen. It is my understanding that Ronnie Allen re invented the one pocket strategy to be more offensive than defensive? None the less, your explanation was excellent. Thanks for the insight.

Cross Side Larry
 
This thread reminded me of a story in Eddie Robins "Winning One Pocket".


Willie Mosconi, in the late 40's, had made several trips between Philadelphia and New York City to play Rudolph "Downtown Fats" Wanderone straight pool. Fats was always trying to get Willie to play him one-pocket and Willie always refused since he had never learned how to play that particular game. Mosconi finally agreed to play Fats one-pocket for $200 a game if Fats would play him in Philadelphia. "Fatty" had a backer that gave him $2,000 to go play Mosconi and off he went to take off the straight pool legend at a game Mosconi supposedly didn't know how to play.

He called his backer in New York to ask for more money, saying Mosconi couldn't move at all and that it was a great game for him but he needed a new stake. When his backer asked what happened that resulted in the loss of the first $2,000, Fats answered that Willie didn't understand the many sophisticated and finesse moves of the one-pocket game and that he had continually beat the great Willie Mosconi to the shot, but Mosconi, not knowing any better, just kept running 8 and out.
 
1 Pocket Ghost said:
I had been meaning to write this thread for awhile and the recent thread asking about Mike Sigel's one pocket skills prompted me to finally write it....

....First of all, I have to disagree with the posters on the Sigel thread who said that Sigel is an excellent one pocket player - he's not, and wasn't = Winning a one pocket tournament and running 8 and out 5 times in a row to beat Strawberry doesn't make you an excellent one pocket player - that isn't even one pocket, it's just running balls. Now in Sigel's case, back in the day, he was a dominating, champion 9-ball and straight pool player, and his superior ball pocketing, superior overall pool skills, and tremendous straight pool knowledge were enough to enable him to win one pocket games, matches, or tournaments - but all of this doesn't make him an excellent one pocket player. Here's a short story...About 12-15 years ago Billy Incardona was partners in owning a semi-private 24 hour pool /card club in Chicago...One night Sigel was in town and he and Billy were at the club just bs'ing, getting ready to go out to eat, and they decide to play a game or two of pool to determine who pays for dinner...Well, Billy wanted to play one pocket and Mike didn't, but he gave in since it was just for dinner...Predictably, Billy tortured Mike and beat him, moving rings around him while Mike just fired at anything - the chirping between them during the games was priceless.


Imo, what defines a pure, excellent one pocket player is that along with having excellent ball pocketing and position play skills....He is a player who knows 95%-100% of all moves, and ALWAYS analyzes the options/percentages correctly when deciding how, and in what manner he can aggressively attack his opponent every inning that he comes to the table - And if there is no offensive option available, he will play a killer safety with perfect cueball control.....Two players from the past who come to mind as being this kind of pure and champion level one pocket player are Artie Bodendorfer and the "Cookie Monster" - Steve Cook.

In these current times, obviously Efren, and secondly Cliff, are stone-cold one pocket champions in every facet of the game, and with superior pool skills to go with...But I'm going to give an example ( there are many more, past and present ) of two one pocket players who although they are far less than champion level pool players ( more like strong shortstop level ) they are true, pure, excellent one pocket players - some of you will have never heard of them, and some of you will know them very well...

....Tom Wirth from the Maryland/DC area ( hey Jam, I know you know Tom and his game well ) and Bob Herchik from Vegas. These two guys aren't champions but they are pure one pocket players....Tom has had many high finishes in major one pocket tournaments and, under the radar-Bob Herchik opened eyes with his 3rd place finish in the derby city one pocket in 2005. Now at the DCC one pocket tournament, these two guys might draw champions who are not really one pocket players like - Johnny Archer, or Earl Strickland, or Bustamante, or Marcus Chamat, and lose to them, but even if they lost, Wirth and Herchik are in fact the excellent ONE POCKET players - not these champions that beat them.
Click to expand...

Well written post. Although I think you underestimate Sigel's One Pocket abilities. He knew all the basic moves and could execute them to near perfection (i.e. hiding the Cue, leaving it on the end rail, and especially playing into the pack).

Yes, players like Wirth and Herchik may have beaten Sigel, but I wouldn't have bet on it. The Lizard (Steve Smith) is another one who stays below the radar. Now, Steve Cook was the Man at One Hole. He gave fits to every one he ever played.

An interesting tournament was Grady's big jam in Reno in 1992. Over 100 of the top players in the country and who reaches the final; Cornbread and Ed Kelly, two old timers. These guys really knew the game, and played a superb match by the way.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vagabond
Moves were invented by the people who could not pocket the balls.What is the object of the game? Whoever pockets 8 balls first wins.


Quote: Tap, tap, tap.

Tracy


No, wrong, moves were always there - they are what make the game the complex thing of beauty that it is....Moving is sneered at by people who aren't smart enough or are too lazy to learn them.
 
ironman said:
I understand both sides of this,but I have to agree here. Most good one pocket players are annoyed by 9-ballers who shoot their way out of a trap and then get out. After all, you left the shot and dared him to shoot it.
As Ronnie Allen said, "the best move in one pocket, is 8 and out!"
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Ronnie had ALL the other moves too, just in case. He could lock you up so tight, you couldn't breathe. And make shots where there was nothing. So many times I saw Ronnie kick two or more rails into the pack and make a ball and run ten and out (he always had to get ten, or more).

In an era of many great One Pocket players (Kelly, both Red's, Shorty, Ervolino, Taylor, Bugs, Cookie) Ronnie reigned supreme. He was a notch above the field. As great as Efren plays (and he does), I have never seen anyone play at Ronnie's level game after game, year after year. In fact the second best player I ever saw was Marvin Henderson. I'm not sure if Taylor or Bugs could have beaten Marvin when he was sober. Ronnie couldn't either at least once that I know of.
 
Alex Kanapilly said:
I'm sure you know plenty of old guys that know MUCH more about one pocket than the better 9 ball players in town but can't win in any game against them. would you argue that they are better one pocket players than the local 9 ball players that drum them week in and week out? I doubt it, because they are just people with better knowledge than others, they can't translate that into beating anyone. The same logic should hold at the top levels.

Alex
Click to expand...


You’re misconstruing what I’ve said. I’ve been defining what makes up an excellent one pocket player. I never said that JUST having a lot of one pocket knowledge is enough, OR, that having a lot of one pocket knowledge would make any old guy in the pool hall that has a lot of one pocket knowledge but who can’t shoot straight anymore an excellent one pocket player - that's ridiculous. The examples that I gave were of strong shortstop speed players. Obviously that means that to be an excellent one pocket player, along with having the one pocket knowledge and strategic intelligence, you also have to be a highly skilled pool player in all facets of the game.
 
jay helfert said:
In fact the second best player I ever saw was Marvin Henderson. I'm not sure if Taylor or Bugs could have beaten Marvin when he was sober.
Click to expand...

Is he the same Henderson from Northern California that posts here in AZB ?
 
One thing that comes to mind is that, even though a strong 9-ball player may have more "firepower", without that specific one-pocket knowledge he may not even be aware of all of the offensive opportunities available to him. One-pocket players learn to look for certain offensive shots that are not standard shots in any other game. This could give a knowledgable one-pocket player an offensive edge in addition to the defensive edge he will most likely have due to his ability to "move". I just don't think you can make the assumption that the 1p player is going to be at an offensive disadvantage; knowledge plays a big part there as well.

OTOH, a smart 9-ball player will be watching closely, and may only need to see these special shots once before attempting to add them to his own arsenal.

Good luck!
 
First let me say thanks to all who have made intelligent posts to this thread, whether they were with me or against me - and OK Andrew, I might have been stretching a little with the boxing analogy, but I was trying to make a point.

And Jay, obviously I agree with you about Ronnie - he has the whole package and I believe that he and Efren are the best one-pocket players of all time....and as to my evaluation of Mike Sigel's pure one-pocket game, refer to my buddy and long-time sparring partner Freddy the Beard's post.


Let me make one last hypothetical scenario to state my case....We're at the DCC and these three one pocket matches are drawn : mega-champion Johnny Archer vs. very excellent one pocket player Richie Richeson, mega champion Earl Strickland vs. very excellent one pocket player Ike Runnels, and mega champion Ralf Souquet vs. very excellent one pocket player Billy Palmer....the three mega-champions all win their matches by a score of three to two, each of them having run eight and out three times....These players never play each other again.....Now the question here is, who are the three very excellent one pocket players out of this group of six ?....

....Well, the answer is a freaking no-brainer - Richie, Ike, and Billy are the Very Excellent One Pocket Players out of this group.



And let me go back a little ways into the past like Jay did....What is a pure, killer, one pocket player ?....From the eastern half of the U.S. guys like Patch-eye and Miami, from the western half, guys like San Jose Dick and Jack Cooney...and many, many, more - God bless them all.
 
Last edited:
1 Pocket Ghost said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vagabond
Moves were invented by the people who could not pocket the balls.What is the object of the game? Whoever pockets 8 balls first wins.


Quote: Tap, tap, tap.

Tracy


No, wrong, moves were always there - they are what make the game the complex thing of beauty that it is....
Click to expand...
If Vagabond says it, you have nothing to say. I agree with him and you feel the need to jump. :eek: LOL


1 Pocket Ghost said:
Moving is sneered at by people who aren't smart enough or are too lazy to learn them.
Click to expand...
I love watching the movers, but what good is having the best moves, if you can not get out when it is time to do so?

I think a football analogy is the most fitting here.
Team A: Great Defense below average offense.
Team B: Great offense below average defense.
When team A and B match-up, it could go either way. Is team "A", more of a real football team, than team "B"?

Team C: Great offense and great defense.
I'd equate this team to the likes of Efren, a great 1P player. When a 1P player goes to the table he must take two teams with him an offense and a defense. They both better be strong or he is not a great 1P player.

I have an idea, maybe they could change the rules, so that only one point per inning is allowed. That should slow the hot shots down. :rolleyes:

Tracy
 
At the past DCC I saw Corey play Efren getting 9/7. After Efren just ran all over him Corey said "Efren I dont care what you give me I cant beat you. Lets play 9 ball." To which Efren replied "What about Rotation?" To which a grinning Corey just unraveled his stick saying "Nope."

I played Rodney Morris in a little one pocket tournament once. He told me "take it easy on me I never play one hole." I always beat him to the first shot but when he had an opening it was 8 and out. Every time.

No one has mentioned Steve Mizerak. He was phenomenal when it came to running 8 and out. He would just pick apart a rack so beautifully. Using top spin to drive through a rack. His safety play was excellent too with his great cue ball control. Thank god we have him on Accustats to appreciate.
 
I saw a match between Johnny Archer and Wade Crane/BillyJohnson (one pocket). Billy Incardona was the commentator. Wade moved great, and won 'a' game...but any real mistakes and Johnny ran 8 and out (tough 8 and outs).

Many times Billy Incardona would say, "I can't believe he took that shot!" as Johnny ran out. After Johnny won the match, Billy was interviewing him. He said that he travelled with Scott Frost (this was in the 90's) and that Scott had shown him a few things. Billy said, "Once you learn how to move, you really won't play as good as you did today, if that makes sense to you Johnny....because you won't go for the shots that are fraught with peril." Johnny replied something along the lines of, "Well, instead of trying to get caught up with moving against Wade, which I know I can't win...I figured my best move was 8 and out." Incardona laughed as he replied, "Yeah, I guess 8 and out IS the best move in One Pocket."
 
correct

1 Pocket Ghost said:
First let me say thanks to all who have made intelligent posts to this thread, whether they were with me or against me - and OK Andrew, I might have been stretching a little with the boxing analogy, but I was trying to make a point.

And Jay, obviously I agree with you about Ronnie - he has the whole package and I believe that he and Efren are the best one-pocket players of all time....and as to my evaluation of Mike Sigel's pure one-pocket game, refer to my buddy and long-time sparring partner Freddy the Beard's post.


Let me make one last hypothetical scenario to state my case....We're at the DCC and these three one pocket matches are drawn : mega-champion Johnny Archer vs. very excellent one pocket player Richie Richeson, mega champion Earl Strickland vs. very excellent one pocket player Ike Runnels, and mega champion Ralf Souquet vs. very excellent one pocket player Billy Palmer....the three mega-champions all win their matches by a score of three to two, each of them having run eight and out three times....These players never play each other again.....Now the question here is, who are the three very excellent one pocket players out of this group of six ?....

....Well, the answer is a freaking no-brainer - Richie, Ike, and Billy are the Very Excellent One Pocket Players out of this group.



And let me go back a little ways into the past like Jay did....What is a pure, killer, one pocket player ?....From the eastern half of the U.S. guys like Patch-eye and Miami, from the western half, guys like San Jose Dick and Jack Cooney...and many, many, more - God bless them all.
Click to expand...

Now this actually makes a lot more sense. It is far differnet than your previous post in which u said even if the "shooter" won ten times in a row, they arent the better player.
 
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