Deflection and shaft size

[JimS]

End mass causes deflection.. if I have the right take on this. In my thread about removing the ferrule and playing with the tip attached to the shaft with no ferrule someone mentioned, what had been in the back of my head anyway, and that is that the cue didn't cause much deflection partly, or maybe primarily, because the tip is only 11.4mm in diameter. Less end mass.

Seems to make sense that the pencil thin shaft tip would tend to cause less deflection so if that is the case why do so many players play with shafts that are much thicker?

13mm is the standard. Why did that happen. I believe that snooker cue shafts are very thin so why are pool cues so thick? I don't like the thick shafts... never did. When I played as a kid I liked the 11.5mm shafts but could seldom find one in the ph. I finally had to buy my own. I never could figure out why the larger shafts are used.

Why would pool players... players that like to use english/spin on the cb, choose to play with shafts that create increased deflection and then have to invent shafts, like Predator, OB1, etc, that have decreased end mass and consequently deflect less? Why use the 12.5mm and 13mm tip sizes in the first place?

Any answers out there?

 

[CaptainHook]

I have thought about this also.

 

[vicdotcom]

13mm is the standard. Why did that happen. I believe that snooker cue shafts are very thin so why are pool cues so thick? I don't like the thick shafts... never did. When I played as a kid I liked the 11.5mm shafts but could seldom find one in the ph. I finally had to buy my own. I never could figure out why the larger shafts are used.

Why would pool players... players that like to use english/spin on the cb, choose to play with shafts that create increased deflection and then have to invent shafts, like Predator, OB1, etc, that have decreased end mass and consequently deflect less? Why use the 12.5mm and 13mm tip sizes in the first place?

Any answers out there?

Ill take a stab at this one.

Snooker cues are thinner at the tip. Thats the way the game evolved there. But you have to remember also that with snooker cues it was customary to use brass ferrules. Brass is a pretty heavy metal and would have nullified any deflection benifit from the thin shaft.

As far as 12.5 and 13mm shafts. It seems that people who like the thinner shafts can always have them sanded or turned down. But being it is impossible to make the shaft thicker, it might have been more prudent to keep the standard at 13mm then turn down to preference from there. A lot of oldies that I know have turned and sanded their shafts down.

In regards to playing with a lot of english and using a standard shaft instead of a low deflection, as a player I have learned to adjust to the deflection and most people usually do with practice. Back 15 years and you had no choice but to use a standard maple shaft. I for one dont even think that defleciton is the "boogeyman" that advertising makes it out to be.

Vic

 

[hemicudas]

Smaller snooker balls so smaller snooker shafts. Just common sense.

 

[gregoryg]

Size...

It is my understanding that the smaller the diameter of the tip is, the more exacting your stroke has to be. The smaller tip needs to be put in the EXACT spot you are trying to hit. The bigger tips are a little more forgiving when your placement is a little off. This is what I learned from the wise men from years ago, too long ago!

 

[WesleyW]

What I heard of:

Snookerballs are smaller than poolballs. When you use a snookercue, aspecially on the break, you will break the cue (the shaft will split). A few years ago there are no breakcues. So players are using there playcue to break. To compensate the strenght, they use a thicker shaft, that includes a bigger tip and use a big ferrule to absorb the hit.

If you want a cue with little deflection, you can use a carom cue. It has a smaller tip. And to compensate this, they use a conic shaft.

If you consider above, there is no cue that has a pro taper, little deflection and is strong enough to hit hard with it. That's why they must invent a new shaft.

 

[Cornerman]

Smaller snooker balls so smaller snooker shafts. Just common sense.

Yeah, but billiards also use thinner shafts historically.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

Seems to make sense that the pencil thin shaft tip would tend to cause less deflection so if that is the case why do so many players play with shafts that are much thicker?

Because most players don't consider "less deflection" as anything other than a variable. That is, "less deflection" has never meant "better cue" or "better for their game" to them.

Why would pool players... players that like to use english/spin on the cb, choose to play with shafts that create increased deflection and then have to invent shafts, like Predator, OB1, etc, that have decreased end mass and consequently deflect less? Why use the 12.5mm and 13mm tip sizes in the first place?

Any answers out there?

Nope. No answers. The question is too loaded. Any answer has nothing to do with "increased (cueball) deflection." Unless you've really studied such things, I doubt you (general) have any idea how much squirt exists between a snooker shaft and a snooker ball. It's not just effective end mass. It's the ratio between the cueball mass and the mass in effect of the shaft (the effective end mass). Since snooker balls are smaller, the squirt is higher than you might be suggesting.

I would guess strongly that any answers to "why did the pool cue shafts trend go towards the thicker diameter at the tip" has zero to do with squirt. And I'd further speculate that the trend towards the "pro taper" dictated the increase in shaft size for strength and strength only.

Fred

 

[JoeyInCali]

Why would pool players... players that like to use english/spin on the cb, choose to play with shafts that create increased deflection and then have to invent shafts, like Predator, OB1, etc, that have decreased end mass and consequently deflect less? Why use the 12.5mm and 13mm tip sizes in the first place?

I think players go for what's more comfortable first.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

Why would pool players... players that like to use english/spin on the cb, choose to play with shafts that create increased deflection and then have to invent shafts, like Predator, OB1, etc, that have decreased end mass and consequently deflect less? Why use the 12.5mm and 13mm tip sizes in the first place?

I think players go for what's more comfortable first.

in short, pool players aren't born overnight ! preferences change over time for what's best or how could he/she maintain or improve his/her performance.

 

[xianmacx]

Ill take a stab at this one.


In regards to playing with a lot of english and using a standard shaft instead of a low deflection, as a player I have learned to adjust to the deflection and most people usually do with practice. Back 15 years and you had no choice but to use a standard maple shaft. I for one dont even think that defleciton is the "boogeyman" that advertising makes it out to be.

Vic

I agree completely. I used to live and die by a predator. I could not play dead without one. Then I decided to work on correcting my stroke. The better your stoke is, the less deflection matters. Low deflection shafts mask alot of errors in your fundamentals and can halt a players potential. Now i play ONLY with a solid maple shaft. The great part is, i can pick up almost any cue and play decent right away. course this is all mho.

Ian

 

[seymore15074]

Because most players don't consider "less deflection" as anything other than a variable. That is, "less deflection" has never meant "better cue" or "better for their game" to them.

Exactly. Deflection is more like a constant (assuming a single shaft). Deflection can be more or less and as long as the player is used to it, the results are the same.

As deflection approaches zero, the level of play remains constant. There is no benefit to minimizing deflection. At least that is how I see it.

Now, if you are used to a certain low amount of deflection, then logically, you would be able to play just as well with another shaft that has that same amount. When it comes to shafts, I would be more interested in a manufacturer that could shave/test/repeat and perfectly MATCH the deflection of my current shaft, that way there would be no getting-used-to-it-period. Perhaps there could be a standardized rating for deflection? For example, manufactures could sell shafts of A, B, or C deflection, etc...

 

[Flex]

When it comes to shafts, I would be more interested in a manufacturer that could shave/test/repeat and perfectly MATCH the deflection of my current shaft, that way there would be no getting-used-to-it-period. Perhaps there could be a standardized rating for deflection? For example, manufactures could sell shafts of A, B, or C deflection, etc...

Nice idea. Perhaps Predator could start by ensuring all their Z shafts play the same, for instance. I know one fellow who has 2 Z shafts and they definitely squirt the cue ball different amounts... BTW,they're used on the same butt.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Research has shown that the absolute best shaft diameter is (12.69696969)

Not matter what Butt Diameter, Joint Type, Joint Pin , Fore Arm Wood, Butt Balance, Butt Weight, Shaft Weight, etc. etc..... Anything thicker or thinner is no good at all....

Oh....And it does not matter how big or small your hands are, or how long your fingers are either.....

 

[DRW]

Shaft diameter

Research has shown that the absolute best shaft diameter is (12.69696969)

Not matter what Butt Diameter, Joint Type, Joint Pin , Fore Arm Wood, Butt Balance, Butt Weight, Shaft Weight, etc. etc..... Anything thicker or thinner is no good at all....

Oh....And it does not matter how big or small your hands are, or how long your fingers are either..... [/QUOTE
Ken,
Was this research done at Pappys or Alexanders?

 

[BRKNRUN]

Research has shown that the absolute best shaft diameter is (12.69696969)

Not matter what Butt Diameter, Joint Type, Joint Pin , Fore Arm Wood, Butt Balance, Butt Weight, Shaft Weight, etc. etc..... Anything thicker or thinner is no good at all....

Oh....And it does not matter how big or small your hands are, or how long your fingers are either..... [/QUOTE
Ken,
Was this research done at Pappys or Alexanders?

Actually the research to determine that number was done at T.A.L.... (Thin Air Labratiories)

 

[PKM]

Research has shown that the absolute best shaft diameter is (12.69696969)

Close, the correct answer is 4π, and it has to be exact

 

[JimS]

What are the arguments against playing with a 11.5mm shaft w/no ferrule and a 20" pro taper? I've got one and I'm getting used to it and I'm likeing it. What's the down side?

 

[ShaneS]

What are the arguments against playing with a 11.5mm shaft w/no ferrule and a 20" pro taper? I've got one and I'm getting used to it and I'm likeing it. What's the down side?

Aside from selling it... Nothing.