Deflection as relating to tip size

[irspow]

If you are using pivoting for squirt compensation, the pivot point -- or the balance between front/back -- changes with lots of variables, including speed. Softer shots, that allow more swerve to cancel the squirt, generally don't work well with backhand english.

Thanks I read the great Dr. Dave’s stuff on compensation when using english. I knew that I’d remember it a little wrong (slow learner). I should do his recommended calibration of bhe and fhe for myself, but I still struggle to make shots in general even when not using sidespin.

 

[Bob Jewett]

..., but I still struggle to make shots in general even when not using sidespin.

In that case you should spend most of your learning time without side spin. It is very hard to learn compensation when your initial no-spin line is wrong.

 

[Cornerman]

I am a slow learner, but isn’t back hand english mainly for longer and harder shots while front hand english is for shorter and softer strokes?

No

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...isn’t back hand english mainly for longer and harder shots while front hand english is for shorter and softer strokes?

No

Backhand english moves the back hand and pivots your cue at the front hand (bridge); fronthand english moves the front hand and pivots your cue at the back hand (grip) - that means backhand works better for cues with shorter pivot points (closer to the bridge).

pj <- in other words, Freddie's right
chgo

 

[hang-the-9]

I agree lower squirt shafts are less forgiving of stroke errors - their pivot points are farther from the bridge, causing overcompensation for squirt.

But I wonder why you think they exaggerate spin.

pj
chgo

Lower deflection cues put more spin on the ball with the same speed hit (in all my testing and what others have told me soon as they try one), as well as put the cueball on a straighter path then hit with spin (less deflection), so if you are used to making a ball by "feel" with a normal shaft using spin, that spin all of a sudden is your enemy because you are compensating for something that is not happening.

 

[DeadStick]

Lower deflection cues put more spin on the ball with the same speed hit

That myth will never die, lol.

 

[hang-the-9]

This.


Agreed, but I also feel like a lot of people get WAY too worried about technique, and would be better served to rely more on instinct and practice without cluttering their minds with the myriad of factors that exist for every shot. I wish I would have focused a lot harder on fundamentals when I was more of a beginner, and left the more complicated stuff for later.
There are plenty of really good players out there that are ignorant of pivot points, swerve, deflection, aiming systems, etc. And plenty of bangers who try to know every system and nuance of stroke that will never pass 500 fargo.

This idea is correct, and it happens with practice and experience. At first anyone that studies and learns does it by rote memorization and copying things exactly as instructed. That gets them to learn the core of the subject. Once they are better at it, it becomes more and more automatic and ends up being the "shooting and aiming by feel" that the pros talk about doing.

I for one, never bothered about pivot points, I just know when I hit with side spin I need to adjust less with an LD shaft, exactly how much so on specific shots I picked up over years of play. But I understand deflection and other things exist that affect a shot on a conscious level, so I know how to manually adjust to situations when needed.

 

[hang-the-9]

That myth will never die, lol.

Not a myth, I hand the player an LD shaft and they immediately say "wow I spun that without hitting hard at all". I've had at least three newer players that tried my shafts end up buying a Revo shaft because it was so much easier to work with than what they were using.

I also did tests for like an hour with a buddy of mine where we looked at 6-7 different shafts with different tips to see how much spin we could get, and the furthest ones were all LD shafts, with the top ones being LD shafts with layered tips. Nothing I say is guesswork or based on what I hear, but what actually is seen. The difference in spin from the lowest shafts, which were normal shafts with one piece tips to the LD shafts with layered tips was over a diamond further down the table.

If you think about the physics, it adds up. With a normal shaft you have energy going into the cueball to push it to the side, LD shaft goes straight, so that angular energy stays with the ball as spin and forward momentum. All movement is some form of energy transfer, friction is seen as heat for example. The motion from pushing the cueball to the side wastes energy (power). If you drive a car in a curved line, you use more gas to use a simpler example. So if you push on the gas and go straight, you will end up at the end faster than on a curved path.

Every Revo shaft I played with, I can get easier spin action on than any other shaft I tried, and I have tried many dozens.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I play an 11.5mm tip. After a long time away from play I couldn't really play with it. I constantly hit a bit of rh spin and missed balls. So I went to a 13mm shaft and that was indeed more forgiving for me and allowed me to miss fewer 'easy' shots.

After a few months, I'd sorted out my stroke flaws to a point that allowed me to game my preferred 11.5mm cue. At first, I just wasn't precise enough for it and the fatter tip performed better for me. So mark me down in the fat tips are more forgiving camp.

 

[DeadStick]

Not a myth, I hand the player an LD shaft and they immediately say "wow I spun that without hitting hard at all". I've had at least three newer players that tried my shafts end up buying a Revo shaft because it was so much easier to work with than what they were using.

I also did tests for like an hour with a buddy of mine where we looked at 6-7 different shafts with different tips to see how much spin we could get, and the furthest ones were all LD shafts, with the top ones being LD shafts with layered tips. Nothing I say is guesswork or based on what I hear, but what actually is seen. The difference in spin from the lowest shafts, which were normal shafts with one piece tips to the LD shafts with layered tips was over a diamond further down the table.

If you think about the physics, it adds up. With a normal shaft you have energy going into the cueball to push it to the side, LD shaft goes straight, so that angular energy stays with the ball as spin and forward momentum. All movement is some form of energy transfer, friction is seen as heat for example. The motion from pushing the cueball to the side wastes energy (power). If you drive a car in a curved line, you use more gas to use a simpler example. So if you push on the gas and go straight, you will end up at the end faster than on a curved path.

Every Revo shaft I played with, I can get easier spin action on than any other shaft I tried, and I have tried many dozens.

I doubt if you put as much scientific method behind it as this guy did:

https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2017/sept17.pdf

There are several reasons why a player used to a HD shaft will experience more sidespin when switching to a LD shaft (all well covered in the linked article), but it’s been proven that an HD shaft will spin a ball just as much as an LD shaft if the tip contact point is where it should be for max spin.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Lower deflection cues put more spin on the ball with the same speed hit

That myth will never die, lol.

Not a myth

Yes, a myth - you can test it yourself if you really want to know the truth.

As I said in post #27 above...
1. Use a striped ball as your "CB" with the stripe vertical and facing you.

2. Hit the ball on the edge of the stripe (maximum side spin), aiming it straight across the table (diamond to diamond) - put a target, like a piece of chalk, on the far rail to easily see if you're hitting straight across.

3. Hit it just hard enough to rebound to the near rail. Mark the spot it hits on the near rail.

4. Check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you hit right on the edge of the stripe.

5. Don't count any shot if (1) you didn't hit the far rail target, (2) the chalk mark isn't exactly on the edge of the stripe, or (3) the speed is different.

pj
chgo

 

[dendweller]

I agree lower squirt shafts are less forgiving of stroke errors - their pivot points are farther from the bridge, causing overcompensation for squirt.

This is news to me, second time I've seen a reference to it. I always assumed, and I think I've read as a selling point, that LD shafts would be more accurate and amune to off center unintentional hits than standard because they deflect less so the cb would hit closer to the intended target.

This seems to say the opposite. Can you explain why what you're saying is true?
Thanks

 

[Mensabum]

I play an 11.5mm tip. After a long time away from play I couldn't really play with it. I constantly hit a bit of rh spin and missed balls. So I went to a 13mm shaft and that was indeed more forgiving for me and allowed me to miss fewer 'easy' shots.

After a few months, I'd sorted out my stroke flaws to a point that allowed me to game my preferred 11.5mm cue. At first, I just wasn't precise enough for it and the fatter tip performed better for me. So mark me down in the fat tips are more forgiving camp.

I'm lazy and try to make this what can be a very complex game, as easy as possible for my limited gray matter. I only have about 3 remaining brain cells left due to indulgences in my youth, and worrying about tip size overtaxed the last two, so I'm lucky if I can make it to the table. Big tips allow me to see and aim easier now therefore allowing that last brain cell to make the intended shot. That's about as much overthinking as I can do when playing.

 

[book collector]

Sometimes your eyes are not in the correct place in your head, causing fish eye , or goggle eye, if you hold two fingers together between your eyes and look at a wall 20 feet away , you should only see 1 spot on the wall, the one where the last guy that did this experiments, head was shoved into it. yw

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I agree lower squirt shafts are less forgiving of stroke errors - their pivot points are farther from the bridge, causing overcompensation for squirt.

This is news to me, second time I've seen a reference to it. I always assumed, and I think I've read as a selling point, that LD shafts would be more accurate and amune to off center unintentional hits than standard because they deflect less so the cb would hit closer to the intended target.

With a stroke error the cue “pivots” at the bridge (large deflection compensation), but a low-deflection cue should pivot farther back (smaller compensation).

pj
chgo

 

[dendweller]

With a stroke error the cue “pivots” at the bridge (large deflection compensation), but a low-deflection cue should pivot farther back (smaller compensation).

pj
chgo

So the larger error is more to do with the bridge length you use to accomodate ld and not the lower deflection itself.

 

[George the Greek]

I play an 11.5mm tip. After a long time away from play I couldn't really play with it. I constantly hit a bit of rh spin and missed balls. So I went to a 13mm shaft and that was indeed more forgiving for me and allowed me to miss fewer 'easy' shots.

After a few months, I'd sorted out my stroke flaws to a point that allowed me to game my preferred 11.5mm cue. At first, I just wasn't precise enough for it and the fatter tip performed better for me. So mark me down in the fat tips are more forgiving camp.

I started off with a 13 mm and tried playing with it for a bit and had it turned down to 12 mm and tapered the shaft to my liking. I finally had it taken down to 11.5 mm and that's where I'm at now. I'm comfortable applying either side spin on the CB and can rely on the cue working for my style of game.

 

[dr_dave]

I doubt if you put as much scientific method behind it as this guy did:

https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2017/sept17.pdf

There are several reasons why a player used to a HD shaft will experience more sidespin when switching to a LD shaft (all well covered in the linked article), but it’s been proven that an HD shaft will spin a ball just as much as an LD shaft if the tip contact point is where it should be for max spin.

Here's a video that summarizes and demonstrates the most important points of the article:

And for those who want to learn more about all the topics in this thread, see the videos and info here:

cue tip size and shape effects

getting more spin with an LD shaft

aim compensation when using sidespin​

 

[dr_dave]

Yes, a myth - you can test it yourself if you really want to know the truth.

As I said in post #27 above...
1. Use a striped ball as your "CB" with the stripe vertical and facing you.

2. Hit the ball on the edge of the stripe (maximum side spin), aiming it straight across the table (diamond to diamond) - put a target, like a piece of chalk, on the far rail to easily see if you're hitting straight across.

3. Hit it just hard enough to rebound to the near rail. Mark the spot it hits on the near rail.

4. Check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you hit right on the edge of the stripe.

5. Don't count any shot if (1) you didn't hit the far rail target, (2) the chalk mark isn't exactly on the edge of the stripe, or (3) the speed is different.

pj
chgo

If people want to see demonstrations of this approach, check out:

 

[hang-the-9]

Yes, a myth - you can test it yourself if you really want to know the truth.

As I said in post #27 above...
1. Use a striped ball as your "CB" with the stripe vertical and facing you.

2. Hit the ball on the edge of the stripe (maximum side spin), aiming it straight across the table (diamond to diamond) - put a target, like a piece of chalk, on the far rail to easily see if you're hitting straight across.

3. Hit it just hard enough to rebound to the near rail. Mark the spot it hits on the near rail.

4. Check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you hit right on the edge of the stripe.

5. Don't count any shot if (1) you didn't hit the far rail target, (2) the chalk mark isn't exactly on the edge of the stripe, or (3) the speed is different.

pj
chgo

This is the test me and my friend did, hit with low right and spin down the table to see how close to the corner pocket we got. For both of us, we got the cueball further down table with a LD shaft with a layered tip. This was three different LD shafts, not just one. We had at least two shafts of each type, normal shaft with one piece tip, normal shaft with layered tip, LD shaft with one piece tip, LD shaft with layered tip. And the spin we got out of the shot from least to most was in that order. We both took 5 shots each with each shaft to account for our stroke differences and variables. But they were all consistent between us, the LD shaft with a layered tip took the cueball further down the table, to position B, and even to the pocket sometimes, the normal shaft was at position A.