Deflection/Squirt question

T

tim913

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not sure if I'm talking about squirt or deflection, but here goes. I am a right handed player, and have used Predator 314 shafts for years. If I am using inside english I always have to allow for deflection/squirt, If it is a long shot sometimes I have to aim for a full ball hit to get a 45 degree, 1/2ball cut. This is no problem since I'm aware of it and aim accordingly. My problem is this...if I use outside english I don't have to allow for squit/deflection at all, or maybe my brain is compensating automatically.
I even have to 'cover' the ball more instead of going outside more. Is this normal, and why. I thought it should deflect/squirt the same no matter what side of the CB you are addressing.

Thanks
 
a reply

Gee tim913, I think it must be mental! "Oh yeah", I said, "What makes me think that?". I don't know, but thanks for your reply anyway. I'm welcome..
 
I thought the 314 was a low deflection shaft. That seems like any awful lot of squirt to me. I don't get that much deflection and I've always used traditional shafts with ivory ferrules. Man, I should be wiffing more than I do. :grin:


As to why it is more with english on one side than the other, I have no idea other than what you theorize, that you are compensating automatically. Sometime with inside, since you are cutting the ball more, perhaps you are just perceiving more deflection. Or perhaps you are not actually hitting the cue ball exactly where you think you are.

I'm just guessing.
 
Try this, hold your cue level and aiming at middle CB. Now from here keep the butt the same height and lower the tip into place (inside or outside bottom). For me having the tip pointing down (butt elevated a little) does a little masse that counters the throw. I.e. playing inside pushes the CB to the right but the raised butt (very little done by instruction above) pulls the CB back on line. I do this naturally and make no adjustments while playing "in/out side" english. I aim all shots the same as middle ball.
 
it could be the way you address the ball depending on the shot you may be applying parallel english for on shot and not the other. Just a thought
 
The bottom line is it doesn't matter what kind of cue you are using. Anytime you hit right or left, two things happen, the shaft will deflect, and the cue ball will squirt. Since the mass of the cue ball and the composition of the cue shaft remain constant, the only variable is YOU. You may be compensating more to one side than the other, you may be changing your stroke speed, it may be an alignment issue, but understand it is not the cue. The cue is just a piece of wood. It does nothing until you move it.

Steve
 
This is good advice. One thing you have to be sure of...that you're aiming the same amount off-center, either way. The first thing I'd do, is see if you can aim at 6:00 on the CB, shoot softly, down the centerline of the table, and see if your CB comes back to your tip. If it is close, then you probably know where the vertical axis is, and the test described by Neil will work. Perception is everything, and often we perceive things differently then they actually are.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Neil said:
Try this- put the cueball on the head spot and shoot it straight down to the center diamond at the other end. Then , aim for the same spot with right english and see where you hit the rail. Then do it with left and see where you hit the rail. It's possible that the way you are over the cue alters your depth perception on the shot. No way to tell on here. Left or right english you should hit the same distance from the center spot.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the tips, and I'll be working with your suggestions...not sure I understand the 'parallel' english reply though.
 
tim913...Parallel english means that you shift your bridge hand sideways, a little, to line up on the aim point on the CB...as opposed to an 'aim and pivot' type movement, to apply the sidespin. Both techniques work. Which one you use depends on which one you're more comfortable with.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

tim913 said:
Thanks for the tips, and I'll be working with your suggestions...not sure I understand the 'parallel' english reply though.
Click to expand...
 
Are there three well-known definitions for "inside-english"?

tim913 said:
Not sure if I'm talking about squirt or deflection, but here goes. I am a right handed player, and have used Predator 314 shafts for years. If I am using inside english I always have to allow for deflection/squirt, If it is a long shot sometimes I have to aim for a full ball hit to get a 45 degree, 1/2ball cut. This is no problem since I'm aware of it and aim accordingly. My problem is this...if I use outside english I don't have to allow for squit/deflection at all, or maybe my brain is compensating automatically.
I even have to 'cover' the ball more instead of going outside more. Is this normal, and why. I thought it should deflect/squirt the same no matter what side of the CB you are addressing.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Hi Tim913,

Just want to ask a question for I've no time for much more than that. As far as I know from years of research on various subjects re billiards, the term, "inside english," was used in two different ways as follows:

1. In reference to either the use of left-hand spin or just "left" when cutting a ball to the left, or the use of right-hand spin or just "right" when cutting a ball to the right.

2. In reference to side-spins applied when both balls, the cueball and object-ball, are located near a same cushion and one is striking the cueball at the side nearest to cushion whether cutting ball a little to the left or a little to the right.

I've been away for years at a time and might not be aware of how some terms have undergone a bit of what can be referred to as a natural evolution of definition, which is fine of course. Knowing what is commonly used and much agreed upon and much agreed upon is of importance to me because of work that is to be done on my furture books.

And so I ask, if I've understood correctly in the first place, by "inside-english" are you meaning side-spin that results from striking the cueball at whichever side is nearest your body? If so, can anybody tell me if this usage of "inside-english" happens to be well known and frequently used nowadays? I'm a bit surprised only because it would mean that one should then explain, as did poster, tim913, whether he or she is left- or right-handed.

I'm not meaning to be picky on this usage of "inside-english", and don't see anything particularly wrong with it, as long as it communicates well to others; if it does, I've then learned that there really is a third definition for "inside-english."

In the interest of using the most preferable of billiard terms in my future work,

Eddie Robin
 
Inside has always meant to me applying spin to the same side as the cut, that is, your #1 definition. If anyone uses the term to mean anything else then I'm not going to understand what they are talking about.
 
"Parallel english", "aim and pivot movement," "back-hand-english"?

Scott Lee said:
tim913...Parallel english means that you shift your bridge hand sideways, a little, to line up on the aim point on the CB...as opposed to an 'aim and pivot' type movement, to apply the sidespin. Both techniques work. Which one you use depends on which one you're more comfortable with.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...


Hi Scott Lee,

Never heard of this term, "parallel english," and am curious as to whether this has become a well-known term. If so, I must understand what is the line that goes through cuestick to intended impact-point on cueball supposed to be parallel to? I just don't yet see how it could automatically be perfectly or even almost perfectly parallel to the cueball's intended path, or even to the line between impact-points of cueball and object-ball since deflection and curve will to some degree exist whenever "english" is used and will almost never perfectly compensate for each other.

That last line of mine made me realize that this must be about allowances for deflection. Is that it?

I can see how you may be referring to those instances where one's masse action compensates almost perfectly with the degree of resultant deflection. Is that what you meant?

Have I misunderstood something here? If so, I certainly hope you or one of the other members can clear it up for me for I'm just not getting it.

Just realized that I didn't even understand the 'aim and pivot' type movement. Is that a reference to another term I'd heard about a few years ago called, "back-hand-english"? If the way "back-hand english" was once explained to me was correct, it happens to be quite unworkable. However, I believe that I did at least understand why the usage of the term, "back-hand"; I figured it was in reference as to how a side-ways movement of the back-hand would hopefully allow for both deflection and/or curvature.

Is there, by any chance, any allowances in this "back-hand" method for changes in speed? Increased or decreased speed would of course be a significant factor as to how much deflection would result and if more deflection fromchange of speed would shooter than change direction of cue? It may be workable after all if such speed allowance were accurate!

I'm not trying to come across as humble here for it has become quite well known that I'm usually anything but. I just really and truly doubt my understanding of many terms used today!

for greater understanding of all things billiard,

Eddie Robin
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Inside has always meant to me applying spin to the same side as the cut, that is, your #1 definition. If anyone uses the term to mean anything else then I'm not going to understand what they are talking about.
Click to expand...

Hi DogsPlayingPool,

I always disliked definition number two myself but it was once such a quite popular usage of the term "inside english" I didn't feel I could do anything about it. The biggest problem was when Definition-2 would clash with Definition-1. Drove me nuts at the time. We certainly didn't have forums like AZB back then.

I take it then, unless you later write otherwise, that you also disagree with "inside-english" changing from right-to left or vice-versa depending whether shooter is a lefty or righty. It obviously won't communicate well with you, as it wouldn't with me; but what I'd like to know, however, is whether or not this third definition communicates well to many and has become commonly used by others since I've been away.

Thanks for your input,

Eddie Robin
 
Eddie Robin said:
Hi DogsPlayingPool,

I always disliked definition number two myself but it was once such a quite popular usage of the term "inside english" I didn't feel I could do anything about it. The biggest problem was when Definition-2 would clash with Definition-1. Drove me nuts at the time. We certainly didn't have forums like AZB back then.

I take it then, unless you later write otherwise, that you also disagree with "inside-english" changing from right-to left or vice-versa depending whether shooter is a lefty or righty. It obviously won't communicate well with you, as it wouldn't with me; but what I'd like to know, however, is whether or not this third definition communicates well to many and has become commonly used by others since I've been away.

Thanks for your input,

Eddie Robin
Click to expand...

By my way of understanding it has nothing to do with being lefty or righty. Say the OB is on the foot spot and the CB is on the head spot. Whether you play left handed or right handed, inside would be using right spin shooting to the right hand corner pocket and left english shooting to the left corner pocket.

If I understand what you mean by the third definition (side closest to the body) I take that to mean if you are shooting right handed then inside english is always left english. If that is what you mean, I don't agree with that. My only understanding of the term "inside" english is as you described in your #1: left spin for a cut to the left and right for right. I don't know that the term has never been used to mean something other than that but that is the only way I've ever understood it.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
By my way of understanding it has nothing to do with being lefty or righty. Say the OB is on the foot spot and the CB is on the head spot. Whether you play left handed or right handed, inside would be using right spin shooting to the right hand corner pocket and left english shooting to the left corner pocket.

If I understand what you mean by the third definition (side closest to the body) I take that to mean if you are shooting right handed then inside english is always left english. If that is what you mean, I don't agree with that. My only understanding of the term "inside" english is as you described in your #1: left spin for a cut to the left and right for right. I don't know that the term has never been used to mean something other than that but that is the only way I've ever understood it.
Click to expand...

Great! After a couple days of this question on this forum with you confirming the original definition and nobody mentioning any known use of other definitions, I'll just happily assume that those that have used other definitions with me over the years have simply misused the term.
For a better understanding of billiards,
Eddie Robin
 
Eddie Robin said:

Hi Scott Lee,

Never heard of this term, "parallel english," and am curious as to whether this has become a well-known term. If so, I must understand what is the line that goes through cuestick to intended impact-point on cueball supposed to be parallel to? I just don't yet see how it could automatically be perfectly or even almost perfectly parallel to the cueball's intended path, or even to the line between impact-points of cueball and object-ball since deflection and curve will to some degree exist whenever "english" is used and will almost never perfectly compensate for each other.

That last line of mine made me realize that this must be about allowances for deflection. Is that it?

I can see how you may be referring to those instances where one's masse action compensates almost perfectly with the degree of resultant deflection. Is that what you meant?

Have I misunderstood something here? If so, I certainly hope you or one of the other members can clear it up for me for I'm just not getting it.

Just realized that I didn't even understand the 'aim and pivot' type movement. Is that a reference to another term I'd heard about a few years ago called, "back-hand-english"? If the way "back-hand english" was once explained to me was correct, it happens to be quite unworkable. However, I believe that I did at least understand why the usage of the term, "back-hand"; I figured it was in reference as to how a side-ways movement of the back-hand would hopefully allow for both deflection and/or curvature.

Is there, by any chance, any allowances in this "back-hand" method for changes in speed? Increased or decreased speed would of course be a significant factor as to how much deflection would result and if more deflection fromchange of speed would shooter than change direction of cue? It may be workable after all if such speed allowance were accurate!

I'm not trying to come across as humble here for it has become quite well known that I'm usually anything but. I just really and truly doubt my understanding of many terms used today!

for greater understanding of all things billiard,

Eddie Robin
Click to expand...

Want to point out to whoever may be interested in allowances for deflection that any deflection-allowance method must provide allowances for differing speeds to even have a chance of being accurate. I've yet to learn about such methods having such allowances and believe they do not yet exist.

Want to point out that any method for estimating masse-type curvatures must provide allowances for differing cloth conditions to even have a chance of being accurate. I've yet to learn about such methods having such allowances and believe they also do not yet exist.

Believe certain methods re deflection and resultant curvatures have been advertised as accurate without even a mention of such allowances. I'll be interested in comparing such methods to those in my forthcoming book on fundamentals (methods which happen to be very accurate) when such allowances have been developed for those methods.

Somebody please let me know if above-mentioned allowances have already been developed, for I always want to know the best of any and all available methods for the playing of a better game of billiards.

for a better understanding of billiards,

Eddie Robin
 
:angry:
Eddie Robin said:
Never heard of this term, "parallel english," and am curious as to whether this has become a well-known term. If so, I must understand what is the line that goes through cuestick to intended impact-point on cueball supposed to be parallel to?
Click to expand...

Eddie,

I've been arguing about the use of the term "parallel english" on these internet pool forums for years now, and I can tell you that it has no universal definition and is simply a misleading term meaning "not backhand or fronthand english".

All of these terms are meant to describe alternate methods of adjusting your aim to compensate for squirt when applying sidespin. "Backhand" means leaving your bridge hand in place and moving your back (grip) hand sideways, "fronthand" means keeping your back hand still and moving only your bridge hand sideways, and "parallel" means any other method (usually simply placing both hands simultaneously "by feel"). The word "parallel" is misleading because the results are, of course, not parallel to anything.

Backhand and fronthand english are often mistakenly thought to be "automatic", meaning the adjustments can be made entirely mechanically with no estimation needed on the part of the shooter, and this might be true if (1) swerve didn't exist and (2) the shaft's pivot point is exactly where the bridge hand or the grip hand is - but in reality, of course, they are not automatic methods and need significant adjusting "by feel".

Welcome to the wonderful world of internet misinformation.

pj
chgo
 
Eddie Robin said:
Want to point out to whoever may be interested in allowances for deflection that any deflection-allowance method must provide allowances for differing speeds to even have a chance of being accurate. I've yet to learn about such methods having such allowances and believe they do not yet exist.

Want to point out that any method for estimating masse-type curvatures must provide allowances for differing cloth conditions to even have a chance of being accurate. I've yet to learn about such methods having such allowances and believe they also do not yet exist.
Click to expand...

These two considerations (speed and masse) are really the same effect: the amount of masse ("swerve") changes with speed (among other things). It's often mistakenly thought that speed affects the amount of deflection ("squirt"), but it's really a change in the amount of masse/swerve that looks like a change in the amount of deflection/squirt. (Since squirt and swerve are present in every sidespin shot, the combined effect is often referred to as "squirve" or "squerve".)

I don't know of any mechanical method for estimating or adjusting for "squirve" that doesn't involve a substantial amount of "feel". One science-minded poster on AzB by the name of Colin Colenso has developed a very intricate method that might come close, but is probably too complicated and unwieldy for anybody but him. If you search for his posts you'll find a description of it.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
I've always thought that the term parallel english meant that the bridge and grip hands would be moved to one side or the other an equal distance from where they would be with a center ball aim line.
 
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