Deflection/Squirt question
- Thread starter tim913
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Neither "Parallel English" and "Backhand English" for me.
Hi Patrick Johnson,
I agree with your explanation for I've not yet come across anything else that makes sense re "Parallel English."
Your explanation re "backhand english" seems quite good as well. We are probably in agreement as to how anything that needs significant adjusting may as well be trashed. This is especially true for me in this case since I've had a method for deflection allowances since 1971 or 1972 that works great (fast and extremely accurate). It will be explained in a book on fundamentals one of these day.
for a better game,
Eddie Robin
PS: Thanks for the "welcome" by the way.
Hi Patrick Johnson,
I agree with your explanation for I've not yet come across anything else that makes sense re "Parallel English."
Your explanation re "backhand english" seems quite good as well. We are probably in agreement as to how anything that needs significant adjusting may as well be trashed. This is especially true for me in this case since I've had a method for deflection allowances since 1971 or 1972 that works great (fast and extremely accurate). It will be explained in a book on fundamentals one of these day.
for a better game,
Eddie Robin
PS: Thanks for the "welcome" by the way.
All else remaining the same, speed does affect amount of deflection.
Hi again Patrick,
I disagree in regards to how you've explained that speed does not affect deflection. The difference in deflection will become most obvious when on the 2-inch slates with a super-fast new and dry cloth for the curve following the masse can thereby be postponed for around double the distance you would find under more normal conditions. My point becomes most obvious when using maximum side-spin while comparing speeds permitting 4-cushions to that of reaching 8-cushions. I'd think those that try this will agree.
I'd wondered for many years already if someone else had ever developed a deflection-allowance method comparable to my own and guess I can never really be sure for there may be a few such deflection-allowance methods out there that are being kept in a vault. I suspect that if it has been done well by others it would have been in the 3-cushion game.
Mine will be made available for all if and when I can ever get my books published. I'm not interested in the Colin Colenso complex method for mine can normally be calculated in two seconds and I would seldom need four.
for a better game,
Eddie robin
Hi again Patrick,
I disagree in regards to how you've explained that speed does not affect deflection. The difference in deflection will become most obvious when on the 2-inch slates with a super-fast new and dry cloth for the curve following the masse can thereby be postponed for around double the distance you would find under more normal conditions. My point becomes most obvious when using maximum side-spin while comparing speeds permitting 4-cushions to that of reaching 8-cushions. I'd think those that try this will agree.
I'd wondered for many years already if someone else had ever developed a deflection-allowance method comparable to my own and guess I can never really be sure for there may be a few such deflection-allowance methods out there that are being kept in a vault. I suspect that if it has been done well by others it would have been in the 3-cushion game.
Mine will be made available for all if and when I can ever get my books published. I'm not interested in the Colin Colenso complex method for mine can normally be calculated in two seconds and I would seldom need four.
for a better game,
Eddie robin
You two are using terminology that adds to the confusion of the subject being discussed. Deflection is what a cue stick does when it strikes the cue ball off center. It is the "bending" of the cue stick. Squirt is what the cue ball does when it is struck anywhere right or left of the vertical center. I think discussions on this subject would be much more easily understood by the readers if we could apply these terms to the two different reactions to the application of side.
Thanks
Steve
Thanks
Steve
Eddie, I think we're saying essentially the same thing: that less masse ("swerve") looks like more squirt.
pj
chgo
PJ, and Eddie...It's called parallel shift, not parallel english, and the definition is exactly how PJ described what he calls 'front-hand' english. Parallel shift, as a usable term, has been used for a long time, and is quite accurate, imo. Parallel refers to moving the line of aim of the cuestick, by moving the bridge hand, to be 'parallel' to the line of aim through the CB, when aiming with sidespin. Aim & pivot is another term for back-hand english, which also works quite accurately (for some players).
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
If it's not parrallel english would it be called both english applied at once. If using parrallel style you have to get used to adjusting your hit spot to the object ball. Center line parrallel left line and parrallel right line it takes practice but it works.
It like the diamond system I ask him to teach it to me and he ask's which one of 8 he knows of.. he stumps me every time with that answer.
Craig
It like the diamond system I ask him to teach it to me and he ask's which one of 8 he knows of.. he stumps me every time with that answer.
Craig
Now I'm beginning to see why the term "parallel english" is so confusing.
That's what I always thought it meant. In his videos on squirt and english (see http://www.joetucker.net/side_spin_workouts.htm), Joe Tucker seems to use the term this way. He uses it in a derogatory fashion, saying that it doesn't work. He prefers a combination of backhand and fronthand english.
Exactly what Joe says. And that's true, unless on a particular shot the combination of swerve/throw exactly compensates for the squirt. But now we have another use of the term:
Here Scott seems to be saying that the line of the cue is parallel to an adjusted line of aim, but not parallel to the "center ball" line of aim (the line of aim that would be correct if shooting center ball). If parallel shift is like fronthand english, the resulting line of aim is not the "center ball" line of aim because you've moved the bridge hand without moving the back hand and so have angled the cue a bit in the direction of the english (I assume Scott is saying this, because otherwise it won't work).
Pretty confusing. But the simple fact is that when you shoot with sidespin, you have to aim to hit the object ball in a different spot than you would if shooting with no sidespin. The more sidespin you use and the harder you hit the cue ball, the more you need to adjust (more sidespin means more squirt, and the harder you hit it, the less swerve and throw you'll get to offset the squirt).
Nick Varner's column this month in Billiards Digest discusses the trouble he had when he first started using lots of english. He had to learn to allow for the squirt in his aim, that is, to aim "wrong" to make the ball. The solution he recommends is "practice, practice, practice", rather than any panacea like backhand english.
JimS said:
That's what I always thought it meant. In his videos on squirt and english (see http://www.joetucker.net/side_spin_workouts.htm), Joe Tucker seems to use the term this way. He uses it in a derogatory fashion, saying that it doesn't work. He prefers a combination of backhand and fronthand english.
Exactly what Joe says. And that's true, unless on a particular shot the combination of swerve/throw exactly compensates for the squirt. But now we have another use of the term:
Scott Lee said:
Here Scott seems to be saying that the line of the cue is parallel to an adjusted line of aim, but not parallel to the "center ball" line of aim (the line of aim that would be correct if shooting center ball). If parallel shift is like fronthand english, the resulting line of aim is not the "center ball" line of aim because you've moved the bridge hand without moving the back hand and so have angled the cue a bit in the direction of the english (I assume Scott is saying this, because otherwise it won't work).
Pretty confusing. But the simple fact is that when you shoot with sidespin, you have to aim to hit the object ball in a different spot than you would if shooting with no sidespin. The more sidespin you use and the harder you hit the cue ball, the more you need to adjust (more sidespin means more squirt, and the harder you hit it, the less swerve and throw you'll get to offset the squirt).
Nick Varner's column this month in Billiards Digest discusses the trouble he had when he first started using lots of english. He had to learn to allow for the squirt in his aim, that is, to aim "wrong" to make the ball. The solution he recommends is "practice, practice, practice", rather than any panacea like backhand english.
Actually, you aim to hit the object ball in the same place, since there is one place to make contact that will move the object ball toward the target.
Since using sidespin will often cause the cue ball to move in a slightly different direction than if you hit it with no sidespin, you have to aim a little bit differently in order to hit the object ball in the same place.
I know what you meant to say, but I don't think it came out right.
Steve
We agree. You aim at a different spot so that you will hit the same spot.
A nitpick though. If english-induced throw is important on a particular shot, you also want to hit a different spot - for example, using outside english and hitting the object ball with more than a half-ball hit with moderate speed and unwaxed balls. In that case, you'll want to hit the object ball fuller than you would with a center ball shot because the english will throw the ball to the inside.
The word "squirt" should be left as it was as per dictionaries
Hi Steve,
The word "squirt" should be left as it was as per dictionaries; it should not have a place in billiards. Actually, what the cueball does when it has been deflected to one side or the other is to go in a direction to one side or the other. If anything is causing confusion on this subject, it is those that have coined and/or used the word, "squirt" because they thought it would be a better term than deflection and then realized it wasn't and then had to find a reason for the word. Just look up how the word was first used and the rapid evolution of its meaning becomes quite obvious. It was simply an effort to be right. This is just more silly stuff being passed off as billiard tech.
The cuestick deflects the ball so it goes off in a different direction and now some want to give a name to the different direction. Why? It is simply a different direction. The deflected ball isn't doing anything unusual; it is simply going in a different direction.
"Squirt" to me has to do with directive influence from two opposite directions such as when one shakes a bottle of soda and some squirts out between thumb and lip of bottle. Anybody try looking the word, "squirt" up in a dictionary to see if they can make sense of the term? Please do so and then think for yourself!
Eddie Robin
Hi Steve,
The word "squirt" should be left as it was as per dictionaries; it should not have a place in billiards. Actually, what the cueball does when it has been deflected to one side or the other is to go in a direction to one side or the other. If anything is causing confusion on this subject, it is those that have coined and/or used the word, "squirt" because they thought it would be a better term than deflection and then realized it wasn't and then had to find a reason for the word. Just look up how the word was first used and the rapid evolution of its meaning becomes quite obvious. It was simply an effort to be right. This is just more silly stuff being passed off as billiard tech.
The cuestick deflects the ball so it goes off in a different direction and now some want to give a name to the different direction. Why? It is simply a different direction. The deflected ball isn't doing anything unusual; it is simply going in a different direction.
"Squirt" to me has to do with directive influence from two opposite directions such as when one shakes a bottle of soda and some squirts out between thumb and lip of bottle. Anybody try looking the word, "squirt" up in a dictionary to see if they can make sense of the term? Please do so and then think for yourself!
Eddie Robin
Eddie...I disagree with you here. Cuesticks deflect (ALL cuesticks deflect...some more than others), and cueballs squirt offline (because of the deflection of the cuestick). We use these terms so that we instructors can teach our students what the difference is. There is also swerve, which is squirt with an elevated cue, which causes the cueball to come back across the the line of the shot (which does not happen with just squirt). Using the term 'deflection' for everything just confuses the subject. This is the same reason why we differentiate sidespin from just follow or draw (i.e.: "top english" must be top right or top left, not just 12:00 on on the CB). We're out to educate our students, and the way to to do that most effectively, is to have different terms for different reactions...not trying to say the same word for all reactions.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
New terms should not be created unless there is an obvious need.
You have provided an example of how the term, "squirt" is of no value in the following sentence. You've said, "Cuesticks deflect (ALL cuesticks deflect...some more than others), and cueballs squirt offline (because of the deflection of the cuestick)." Why not say, driven off line, or, go off line, or, deflected off line, or, pushed offline, or, sent offline? Why make up a term just so you could write, "... and cueballs "squirt" offline"? New terms should not be created unless there is an obvious need.
Continuous creation of terms that are of none or little value simply complicate rather than simplify. One should want to simplify subjects rather than needlessly make them more complex with unnecessary terms.
The word "deflection" has been around for a great many years and there was never a need for a word such as "squirt" to explain that something or other was in fact "deflected".
You also mention "different terms for different reactions". The only reaction when a ball's path has been deflected is that the ball has gone in a different direction. Please notice that I had no problem describing these things without using the word "squirt" and never have; the term is simply not needed! Whereas one used to say, the ball was deflected to the left we should now say the ball squirted to the left; WHY? Because authorities who like to create new terms to show they know things the rest of us don't have told us so?
Object-balls, for example, go "off-line" everytime one is hit off center; should we have a term for that as well? Next thing you know, we will have a term for the direction of an object-ball when it has been impacted by a jumped ball, a masse stroke, an object-ball instead of cueball. This could be called getting "term crazy".
Scott, you have stated, "We use these terms so that we instructors can teach our students what the difference is." What difference? A ball's path or direction is a ball's path or direction no matter what caused it. Use of term when they are not needed simply make things more complex. Hopefully, people have finally wised up to the fact that "squirt" is not an action at all but simply a direction resulting from deflection which is an action.
I understand that one makes waves whenever going against agreement. It happened when someone said blood actually travels around the body and when someone pointed out that the world was round. Of course such people should expect attack. There are a great many that, after being told that deflection was not as good a term as squirt, were then sold on how squirt is now describing something else entirely. What? That something else is nothing more than direction; so I ask once again, why the term? It's not just squirt, I don't even like the term, english! What was wrong with "side-spin" or "side" for short??? Many have been confused by that term as well in thinking that english included or excluded "follow" and "draw"!
In case anyone out there should wonder as to why should Eddie bother with such things, it's because a body of knowledge can get really crazy from the introduction of many unnecessary terms; I've seen it happen with the subject of casino craps and hate to see the same thing happening in billiards. I've put in years of work to simplify things so as to make them better understood, things such as position play in 3-cushion billiards (my favorite example) and casino craps (many years wasted on that one--embarassed too many ignorant "authorities"). Must admit, however, that some other recently developed billiard terms are far worse than "squirt", for rather just being unnecessary, they describe things that are not even true or workable!!!
You have provided an example of how the term, "squirt" is of no value in the following sentence. You've said, "Cuesticks deflect (ALL cuesticks deflect...some more than others), and cueballs squirt offline (because of the deflection of the cuestick)." Why not say, driven off line, or, go off line, or, deflected off line, or, pushed offline, or, sent offline? Why make up a term just so you could write, "... and cueballs "squirt" offline"? New terms should not be created unless there is an obvious need.
Continuous creation of terms that are of none or little value simply complicate rather than simplify. One should want to simplify subjects rather than needlessly make them more complex with unnecessary terms.
The word "deflection" has been around for a great many years and there was never a need for a word such as "squirt" to explain that something or other was in fact "deflected".
You also mention "different terms for different reactions". The only reaction when a ball's path has been deflected is that the ball has gone in a different direction. Please notice that I had no problem describing these things without using the word "squirt" and never have; the term is simply not needed! Whereas one used to say, the ball was deflected to the left we should now say the ball squirted to the left; WHY? Because authorities who like to create new terms to show they know things the rest of us don't have told us so?
Object-balls, for example, go "off-line" everytime one is hit off center; should we have a term for that as well? Next thing you know, we will have a term for the direction of an object-ball when it has been impacted by a jumped ball, a masse stroke, an object-ball instead of cueball. This could be called getting "term crazy".
Scott, you have stated, "We use these terms so that we instructors can teach our students what the difference is." What difference? A ball's path or direction is a ball's path or direction no matter what caused it. Use of term when they are not needed simply make things more complex. Hopefully, people have finally wised up to the fact that "squirt" is not an action at all but simply a direction resulting from deflection which is an action.
I understand that one makes waves whenever going against agreement. It happened when someone said blood actually travels around the body and when someone pointed out that the world was round. Of course such people should expect attack. There are a great many that, after being told that deflection was not as good a term as squirt, were then sold on how squirt is now describing something else entirely. What? That something else is nothing more than direction; so I ask once again, why the term? It's not just squirt, I don't even like the term, english! What was wrong with "side-spin" or "side" for short??? Many have been confused by that term as well in thinking that english included or excluded "follow" and "draw"!
In case anyone out there should wonder as to why should Eddie bother with such things, it's because a body of knowledge can get really crazy from the introduction of many unnecessary terms; I've seen it happen with the subject of casino craps and hate to see the same thing happening in billiards. I've put in years of work to simplify things so as to make them better understood, things such as position play in 3-cushion billiards (my favorite example) and casino craps (many years wasted on that one--embarassed too many ignorant "authorities"). Must admit, however, that some other recently developed billiard terms are far worse than "squirt", for rather just being unnecessary, they describe things that are not even true or workable!!!
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The reason for the necessity of two terms is that there are two different things that happen when hitting the cue ball off center. One is that the cue stick flexes or bends slightly in the sirection of the offset. When hitting right spin, the cue bends to the right. Predator really assigned the term deflection to this action with their marketing of their "low deflection" cues. (I won't even go into the fact that this is a flawed concept) Since most players think of the cue stick as being high or low deflection, it seems natural for another term to apply to the action of the cue ball when it is struck off center. The term squirt has been around for years, and refers to the movement of the cue ball off the stroking or aiming line when side spin is applied.
I'm not sure why you are making such a big deal out of it. I have heard the term squirt for years when talking about that cue ball movement. Deflection is the newer term of the two, and is usually used when discussing the various properties of different cue sticks.
Over time, terminology does change. Sometimes we need to be willing to change our way of communicating to meet the needs of our students. I think this is a perfect example of one of those times.
Steve
I'm not sure why you are making such a big deal out of it. I have heard the term squirt for years when talking about that cue ball movement. Deflection is the newer term of the two, and is usually used when discussing the various properties of different cue sticks.
Over time, terminology does change. Sometimes we need to be willing to change our way of communicating to meet the needs of our students. I think this is a perfect example of one of those times.
Steve
Eddie - You might be interested in when and how the term "squirt" was introduced. It was introduced by Bob Byrne is his first instructional book. In the quote below (posted long ago in rec.sport.billiard), Byrne explains why he introduced it. Of course, you are correct that "deflection" is an older term than "squirt". Here is Byrne on the subject (I copied this from
here.
How the Term "Squirt" Began
Robert Byrne
When I was writing Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards in 1977, only a scattering of top players and analytical players were aware of or thought about the way the cueball path diverges slightly away from the cue line when sidespin is used. At the time, the word used for the phenomenon was deflection. I don't think the phenemenon or the word had ever been mentioned anywhere in billiard publications. When a player named Jack Leavitt told me that he called the phenomenon "squirt," I embraced it and used it in the book on page 264, naming Levitt as the coiner in the early editions. (The first edition came out in the fall of 1978.) I liked the word because of its punchy sound and because I resisted using the word deflection; as a civil engineer I knew that deflection had been used for a hundred years at least to mean "bending." When a structural member bends under stress, the bend is measured as "deflection." I didn't want to blur the meaning of a useful technical term by applying it to a cueball path.
Ron Shepard in a recent post says that Bob Meucci claims to have coined the word deflection to mean squirt "about twenty years ago," but, as you can see, the word deflection came first. Shepard also paraphrases Meucci as being opposed to using the word deflection to mean the bending of the cue, which is odd, because that is in fact the technical and well-established meaning of the word. As far as what causes squirt, it may well be that Mr. Meucci's high-speed films prove his points, in which case I will stand corrected.
R. Byrne
here.
How the Term "Squirt" Began
Robert Byrne
When I was writing Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards in 1977, only a scattering of top players and analytical players were aware of or thought about the way the cueball path diverges slightly away from the cue line when sidespin is used. At the time, the word used for the phenomenon was deflection. I don't think the phenemenon or the word had ever been mentioned anywhere in billiard publications. When a player named Jack Leavitt told me that he called the phenomenon "squirt," I embraced it and used it in the book on page 264, naming Levitt as the coiner in the early editions. (The first edition came out in the fall of 1978.) I liked the word because of its punchy sound and because I resisted using the word deflection; as a civil engineer I knew that deflection had been used for a hundred years at least to mean "bending." When a structural member bends under stress, the bend is measured as "deflection." I didn't want to blur the meaning of a useful technical term by applying it to a cueball path.
Ron Shepard in a recent post says that Bob Meucci claims to have coined the word deflection to mean squirt "about twenty years ago," but, as you can see, the word deflection came first. Shepard also paraphrases Meucci as being opposed to using the word deflection to mean the bending of the cue, which is odd, because that is in fact the technical and well-established meaning of the word. As far as what causes squirt, it may well be that Mr. Meucci's high-speed films prove his points, in which case I will stand corrected.
R. Byrne
Scott Lee said:
Apparently some of us didn't get the memo regarding the change in the definition of deflection.
Squirt and deflection are two words describing the SAME thing, both words explaining what the CUE BALL does. And when you say Predator coined the term to describe what the shaft does I don't agree with this.
Taken from Predator's website is the following, clearly indicating they use the term deflection to describe what the cue ball is doing:
"When Allan McCarty and Steve Titus initially began their pool cue research, their main goal was to understand the physics of the pool cue in order to improve its performance. They designed a robot named Iron Willie that played a key role in their research. Iron Willie was able to hold all variables constant and reproduce a consistent stroke and therefore allowing scientific and quantitative analysis of different cues and technologies. This enabled McCarty and Titus to understand how different materials and constructions contributed to performance. Thus began a continuous innovation process and search for the ultimate playing experience.
The first key finding was that maintaining accuracy is difficult when it comes to putting English on the ball. The reason? Cue ball deflection which pushes the cue ball off your line of aim. The 314 shaft and later the Z shaft technologies were developed to reduce this variable, making the game easier..."
Here also is the entry describing deflection from the glossary of cue sports terms on wikipedia indicating that deflection and squirt are two words for the same thing - what the cue ball does - not two words describing different things.
Deflection
Displacement of the cue ball's path away from the parallel line formed by the cue stick's direction of travel; occurs every time english is employed. The degree of deflection increases as the amount of english applied increases. It is also called squirt, typically in the United States.
I have also seen these two words used many times in print and video to describe the same thing - the action of the cue ball after a shot hit with english.
Here are some other references:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQb-AGMxKk - (Roger Long)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO5-v75Hmjg - ( Dr. Dave)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1C_O8AO8yY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuYNF0yF6zY
Here's an excerpt from an article by Dr. Dave (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/april08.pdf):
"...Diagram 1 illustrates all of the effects that come into play when using English. To refresh your memory, squirt, also called deflection, refers to the angular change in the initial cue ball (CB) direction due to an off-center hit..."
So it seems to me that using the term deflection to describe the bend in the cue stick is incorrect and is causing confusion because this term is already in circulation along with squirt, to describe the cue ball's response to a shot hit with english. I think you need a new word for what is happening to the cue stick. How about "flex"?
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The irony here is that the shafts engineered to produce less squirt have come to be known as "low deflection" shafts. Using deflection in that way clearly refers to what happens to the cue ball (goes offline by less), not what happens to the shaft.
To produce less "cue ball squirt" or "cue ball deflection" (they mean the same thing), the shaft itself has to "deflect" more, not less - that is, the shaft has to be pushed offline more, not less. Predator and others discovered that to do that the shaft has to be lighter at its ending few inches (less "end-mass"). That's why they drilled the hole at the end of the shaft and use light ferrules.
As for the bending of the shaft - all the high speed videos I've seen show no bend. The shaft just goes off to one side but seems to stay straight.
To produce less "cue ball squirt" or "cue ball deflection" (they mean the same thing), the shaft itself has to "deflect" more, not less - that is, the shaft has to be pushed offline more, not less. Predator and others discovered that to do that the shaft has to be lighter at its ending few inches (less "end-mass"). That's why they drilled the hole at the end of the shaft and use light ferrules.
As for the bending of the shaft - all the high speed videos I've seen show no bend. The shaft just goes off to one side but seems to stay straight.
Did you read what you posted by Byrne? He clearly explained why he used the term squirt to mean the change in path of the cue ball. He also explained how the word deflection more accurately would apply to the way the cue bends.
Steve
Apparently some of can't recognize marketing propaganda either! 
Better instructors try to help students learn terminology that accurately reflects action and reaction, so that they can more accurately describe, plan, and execute better overall. That's why we use the term deflection, to describe the action of the cuestick, and squirt to describe the action of the cueball. Seems simple enough...
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Better instructors try to help students learn terminology that accurately reflects action and reaction, so that they can more accurately describe, plan, and execute better overall. That's why we use the term deflection, to describe the action of the cuestick, and squirt to describe the action of the cueball. Seems simple enough...Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I'm not quite sure what you don't think I understand, but in any event we are just discussing semantics.
I posted Byrne's explanation because Eddie Robin wondered when the term "squirt" was introduced because it had always been called deflection before. The quote from Byrne confirms this. He explains that deflection had been used to describe what happens to the cue ball path and that this usage clashed with what engineers mean by deflection in engineering contexts, so he introduced the new term "squirt".
For Eddie Robin - For better or worse, the horse has left the barn. The term "squirt" is now commonly used to describe what you always understood as deflection, the deflection of the cue ball off the center-ball path. Whether or not it should have been introduced, the term squirt is out there now.