Can‘t figure out how to add a title to this original post. The intent was to suggest that a difference that makes a difference when experts enter competition is their preparedness. Documenting and Debriefing are part of that process.
Developing Expertise In Pool
- Thread starter Imac007
- Start date
Can‘t figure out how to add a title to this original post. The intent was to suggest that a difference that makes a difference when experts enter competition is their preparedness. Documenting and Debriefing are part of that process.
I found a research paper on preshot routine by a well respected sport psychologist to elite performers.
What is a reference shot?
I go for center pocket unless I need to cheat it for shape or other reasons. I learned the center pocket thing playing snooker.
I learned pocketing with pool balls on a 10' Brunswick type snooker table so I have the middle of the pocket tendency as well. I suppose that could be considered a reference. A better example is as a noob on the 10 footer, I would spin all the cuts with max english and fire all the straighter shots with draw. I arrived at that stage not fully understanding CIT and gearing, skid etc... but knowing those two techniques made more shots. Call those my reference shots; everything else about pool shooting falling between.
While we're on this page, center pocket is not the best indicator of accuracy. Snooker players used to never hit center aperture. They'd always come through pocket on some skewed line. It's only recently that I noticed them and pool players coming through the aperture dead center not just rimless but actually dead center. Anyway the problem with practicing toward this end is, you get no feedback on how accurately the shots were struck. The ball looks good going and not much else to remember. Much better to shoot combinations and shots like jawing the ball where you get 100% feedback on the quality of aim and stroke.
Greatness in all sports is usually measured by who wins the most, in team sports - greatness of individuals in a sport is usually measured in individual statistics that lead the pack. In both cases, consistency of having superior wins/stats over your competition for long periods defines the best of the best.
Expertise involves the development or natural ability to most consistently perform the physical requirements - in pool - that would be ball pocketing and position play. Expertise also involves the mental side of a sport- in pool that would be strategy/safety play AS well as the ability to perform ALL of the above MOST consistently successful in ALL types of competitive situations.
Those who develop or have the natural ability to most often combine superior physical and mental attributes needed for success become champions.
I think that those who become AWARE of what is needed for THEMSELVES to bring forth a superior performance ( however that awareness originates - naturally, instruction, competition, practice, etc.) and then can successfully incorporate all the correct elements into play most consistently have developed a road to expertise in pool or any sport.
Specifically for pool- the physical elements of shotmaking combine equipment/mechanics/ rhythm/timing. The elements of strategy/safety play are learned skills through competition and instruction. The element of position play can best be measured, IMO, by 14.1 - one needs to be able to run 4+ racks consistently in 14.1 to develop expertise in position play. It is not the only way- but a very effective method of learning cue ball control. The other side of the mental game can be natural for some and adopted by others through awareness and determination to succeed.
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I guess I get what you are saying. There have been plenty of occasions, especially playing on 7 footers where center pocket was not an option so I've had to skim it off a rail, shoot caroms and combos or wobble it in. But I practice center pocket because it reinforces my confidence that I can put the ball where ever I want it.
That's kinda my point though. Once I committed to CPA and geometrically "socketing" the cue ball, center pocket and run of the mill stroke position became mindless activities and fuel for eventually going off. I realized when the bars opened in the summer that all I was doing 6 months cold was getting rid of the object balls. This behavior was so ingrained I could not shoot at the hole without the ball going. WTF? But it was indeed an epiphany. To grasp the proportions here, take a back of the corner pocket smack at a ball but aim it to rattle and freeze in the jaws. This is all stuff most players never get around to with standard pocketing drills. Even learning the margins of cheating the pocket is left to the function of low speed stroking and not accuracy per se.
Geosnookery
Well-known member
Same here except it’s been 52 years.
Even though I’m a geophysicist, I’ve never brought a protractor or slide rule to the table. Humans have an instinctive knowledge of applied physics without having to consciously be aware of it. It’s why we can pick up a rock and have some sense how to hit a target. We don’t need ‘to study’ physics to apply it. It helps to study it in more technical circumstances but evolution has given us ample skills to get a 2.3 inch ball into a 4.5 inch hole.
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LoL. I found my high school slide rule I used in physics class when clearing out my parent's house. Its now in my desk drawer, along with the protractor, which I do on occasion but not for pool. I was taking college physics when I started playing pool but other than it enabling understanding of what was happening on the table and why, but I was never calculating angles, force, friction, spin or anything else. I just felt it and I just saw the angles, and still do.
What is CPA?
Are you talking about automatic shooting?
If you are talking about rattling balls and sticking them in the pocket to block it, I used to do that back when I was sharking and I knew someone was watching when it was just me on the table or would do it during a game just to mess with the other guy. But I did it by feel.
Contact Point Aim: This covers any geometric alignment you can see. Although Certified Public Accountant is close too. lol
In a way, but as a hindrance in this case. Talking about the knowledge you miss on automatic.
Jawing balls is a skill that still escapes me. It can make a nifty one pocket trap but the point here is the skill required is a magnitude above hoopless pocketing.
There are different kinds of understanding. I read a book by a world champion once, his instructions boiled down to "just do it". Talking to another world champion that had written a book, he said it was all BS. He said he didn't know how he did things but he wanted a book out so he repeated what he had read in other books. He had figured out what worked and didn't understand why or how.
I discovered "helping english" on a viciously tight old snooker table. Impossible to run a ball down the rail and into a pocket without sidespin but the sidespin seemed backwards to me. I learned it wasn't the spin into the first inside rail that was important but the spin hitting the second inside rail. The balls always rattled both sides then fell. I never did quite understand why what I was doing worked but it did. Ever since then I have understood helping english was real but I reversed it on a pool table if I had no reason to do something else. Helping english wasn't needed on a pool table, reverse english even worked, but I could lock in a shot with helping english. Gave that little added bit of insurance.
Hu
I discovered "helping english" on a viciously tight old snooker table. Impossible to run a ball down the rail and into a pocket without sidespin but the sidespin seemed backwards to me. I learned it wasn't the spin into the first inside rail that was important but the spin hitting the second inside rail. The balls always rattled both sides then fell. I never did quite understand why what I was doing worked but it did. Ever since then I have understood helping english was real but I reversed it on a pool table if I had no reason to do something else. Helping english wasn't needed on a pool table, reverse english even worked, but I could lock in a shot with helping english. Gave that little added bit of insurance.
Hu
Ok, was on the table a little bit ago and took a closer look at how I was aiming. I would have to film/photo it to be sure because I can't sight down the full length of the cue while holding/sighting in my stance, but I think that although I am staring at the OB contact point I am not pointing the cue at the impact point but at a point in space that aligns with center of the CB as it impacts the OB, In other words, it looks like I am probably aiming to account for the radius of the CB.
I guess this would be ghost ball or some variation. It makes more sense to me than thinking that I am adjusting my stroke somehow.
It doesn't really have to have a name as far as I am concerned. It is what I use and it works very well, so I'm not going to overthink it or try prove it to myself in a photo.
I guess this would be ghost ball or some variation. It makes more sense to me than thinking that I am adjusting my stroke somehow.
It doesn't really have to have a name as far as I am concerned. It is what I use and it works very well, so I'm not going to overthink it or try prove it to myself in a photo.
Yeah, I shoot equal opposite as some people call it, seems the same as ghost ball. I suspect I have built compensation into my idea of the shape of the backside of the cue ball that I can't see. I don't make more adjustments so they have to be built into my aim. I don't care, ball in hole, shape, gooder enough!
Hu
I wrote this years ago and thought it deserved a repeat.
After reviewing hundreds of hours of professional players, focusing solely on their pre-shot routine, several things were observed. Observations can be important, but often don’t tell the whole story. Years ago I learned that it was a mistake to focus inward on technique instead of outwards on achieving a result. The most important insight found researching was related, it came from a YouTube video concerning pre-shot routine. Jimmy White and Ronnie O’Sullivan addressed the topic. Both admit they DON’T use one as a general practice. They both talked about stepping into the shot from behind the line, delivering a nice straight level stroke and staying down. Ronnie said he used a basic routine as a coping mechanism if he began to get off stroke. He believes in efficiency. Some things I remember from what he has said are: the need to have a stroke that bites the ball, chalking is important and commit to a shot while standing. These thoughts are outwards towards achieving a result, not inward.
My question turned to, what external focus should I select?, to keep me on track. A shot has two components, the pot and the shape. Each have their own degree of difficulty. I remember a professional golfer talking about putting. He talked about first learning to be accurate, knowing the ball’s path allows you to then switch your focus to the pace of the putt. On a pool table, a version of this makes sense. If the pot is difficult, first focus on the pace, then switch the actual execution phase to accurate straight through cueing, the pot. Vice versa, if pace is key, line up carefully first, then switch your focus to striking with the pace needed.
The game is so much bigger than the pre-shot routine, the stroke, or any individual part. When it flows and we become immersed in the game, the individual parts fall away. What emerges is magical, the balls dance and the interconnections create a morphing flow. The cue becomes an extension of your arm doing your will. Meanwhile your opponent is busy running down a list of preshot tasks, then running down a list of excuses, when a divided attention and focus lead to erratic results.
I could do worse than listen to Ronnie and Jimmy saying "keep it simple."
Despite spending all those hours studying top pros, and gleaning some of their habits, the keep it simple mantra, seems the single most relevant thread.
Part of the problem is when should a pre-shot routine start? Is it limited to the shot alone - after having committed? Habitual practices like chalking, checking the shot from both ends, planning out patterns and thinking at least 2 shots ahead, seem important, but maybe mindset is even more important. They say actions come out of our mental state and interpretation of contexts. Trying to apply a single process/routine over millions and millions of possible situations reveals a modern magic bullet mentality.
Two old adages ring true in the Ronnie/Jimmy mindset.
Don’t try to fix what ain’t broken.
And, cross your bridges when you come to them.
Proactive solutions are context based. Do you go through a checklist to walk across the room? Habitual movements are not conscious. Instead of asking "what did I do?" when we miss a shot, maybe you need to ask "what didn’t I do?" Your most likely answers are the 3 components revealed by the British duo. Did you walk into the shot? Did you stroke through truly? And, did you stay down through the stroke? Which DIDN’T you do, will identify most, if not all of your causes. Adding mentally taxing routines instead of paying attention to the actual details of the shot, is questionable.
Notice how good players find those little flecks of chalk on the table, bits of lint, smoothing the nap at other times. Checking out their tip, penciling on the chalk, not mashing on a layer; the devil is in the details, of the shot not the routine.
Take a close look at the shot, closer. The idea that we can do that, cognitive magnification, is important. We see things relative to other things, ask Einstein. Small details can become reference points. Things appear so much larger in relation to the tiny things. Lint, tiny flecks of chalk and those balls and pockets, so big beside them. Big balls, big pockets, usually on your best days. What do you see? Is your mindset letting you immerse yourself in the small details. Is the cue an extension of yourself? How much of it are you aware of naturally? Does it connect you, the cue ball and object balls into a choreographed dance on the green baize?
Each moment has its own needs for attention. We may need to zoom out to see the bigger picture, scoreboard, state of game/match. Problem balls, planning, strategy and tactics need their time and place in our thinking. Learning to shuttle our attention to the appropriate width and breadth each creating a specific perspective, is part of the process. It’s part of the immersive experience. Immersion takes time. Take time to get calm. Get comfortable at the table. How are you going to deliver an unhurried stroke if you are in anything other than an unhurried state of mind?
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I think you should bring the slide rule to the pool hall and break it out when you have a tough shot, especially when your opponent hooks you.
Should be fun.
Hu
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I realized something today. Got a bit of time to get in my head and think things through. I played a local double elimination 8 ball tournament last week and took second place. I lost twice to the same lady. She was good and obviously has the desire to win. I know I have more skill than most of the players there, I'm not bragging, it's a small pond, but you can just tell when you read an opponent's game. I know I could have beat her, but I lacked focus. I wasn't trying to make her life difficult on the table, or really improve my odds, I was just taking interesting shots. Anyway, I figured out what was missing. The winning mindset/desire to win. I've got comfortable playing for fun and socially. I usually don't care if I win or lose, but this is a dead wrong attitude to have. I started doing local tournaments and subbing for league so I could get some competition under my belt again, but I finally realized I was just coasting. Sure I played alright and won more than I lost, but I am now working on improving the desire to win. It sure is a tough one when I've been working on "ego death" and not being riled by life's stress and such. I know this is part of the "mental side" of pool and I really desire to my "mental game" as tough as steel.
On evaluating my game, I realize I'm better at shot making than I've ever been. I have better cue ball control. I lack focus, and I think the largest component of that is lack of wanting to win. It sounds strange, but I find so much joy in the physics of it, I forgot about the competition aspect.
I've completely changed my outlook, pool is no longer just a fun thing, but something I want to do my best at. I want the competition to have to compete at their best level against me. I want to play stronger players, but I want them to sweat for the win if they get it. "Wining isn't everything, but the desire to win is."
Here are a couple articles/sites I've been reading: https://www.theodysseyonline.com/the-desire-to-win-the-spirit-of-competition also https://www.advancedynamix.win/7-secrets-to-develop-a-winners-mindset/ one more https://www.beaninspirer.com/winning-is-not-what-matters-what-matters-the-most-is-the-desire-to-win/
I know if I get in the right mindset, I can kick some ass. I had a thread a while back about playing against poor sports and just going beast mode on them. I don't want to have to want to destroy my opponent to win, I want to make them sweat bullets but not to do so out of spite.
https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/poor-sportsmanship-engages-monster-mode.519807/#post-6778745
Do you guys have any advice to help develop this mindset? I obviously have to improve my knowledge and execution at the table. I know these are important, but I'd like some advice on developing a winning mindset. Any little tricks to get in the zone?
On evaluating my game, I realize I'm better at shot making than I've ever been. I have better cue ball control. I lack focus, and I think the largest component of that is lack of wanting to win. It sounds strange, but I find so much joy in the physics of it, I forgot about the competition aspect.
I've completely changed my outlook, pool is no longer just a fun thing, but something I want to do my best at. I want the competition to have to compete at their best level against me. I want to play stronger players, but I want them to sweat for the win if they get it. "Wining isn't everything, but the desire to win is."
Here are a couple articles/sites I've been reading: https://www.theodysseyonline.com/the-desire-to-win-the-spirit-of-competition also https://www.advancedynamix.win/7-secrets-to-develop-a-winners-mindset/ one more https://www.beaninspirer.com/winning-is-not-what-matters-what-matters-the-most-is-the-desire-to-win/
I know if I get in the right mindset, I can kick some ass. I had a thread a while back about playing against poor sports and just going beast mode on them. I don't want to have to want to destroy my opponent to win, I want to make them sweat bullets but not to do so out of spite.
https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/poor-sportsmanship-engages-monster-mode.519807/#post-6778745Do you guys have any advice to help develop this mindset? I obviously have to improve my knowledge and execution at the table. I know these are important, but I'd like some advice on developing a winning mindset. Any little tricks to get in the zone?
For attitude adjustment the best I've read are the Inner Game of Tennis and The Pleasures of Small Motions.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Inner Game is so good, I think I'm due for a re-read. Pleasure of Small Motions is in my amazon cart, but I picked the 99 Critical Shots over it last time I ordered. I'll have to put it in my cart next time I place an order.
Your post almost screams that you want to win but you want people to like you while you do it. I have ran into many competitors with that attitude over the years. A part of them doesn't want to win because it will make other people unhappy, never mind that the person is doing their best to beat them. Look around at the winners. Unless they are truly obnoxious people, everybody likes them just fine!
Mentally and verbally you have to get rid of the platitudes. "I'm just here to donate", "I can't beat so and so" all of the BS things you are saying, real and false modesty, your unconscious accepts as fact. Quit saying anything that isn't positive, over time even quit thinking anything that isn't positive. When you wake up in the morning tell yourself you are a winner. When you walk by a mirror, stop, look yourself in the eye, and say with utmost sincerity "I am a winner." Do this every time you go by a mirror even if it was just two minutes ago that you did this. You are rearranging deep seated ideas, it isn't an easy thing. When you get in a vehicle to go to an event, yup, "I am a winner!" When you get to the event, "I am here to win!" Don't ride back and forth to an event with someone that is negative, don't hang with negative people at the event. Be polite, but never say anything less than positive about yourself.
You have two choices, hang by yourself, or hang with other people there to win. Hanging with people that aren't there to win makes it many times harder to win.
I think Bob may have the first edition of "The Pleasure of Small Motions". The first part of the revised edition that had an entire second section added to it is very good. The second part seems a little like filler. The original was little more than a booklet packed with goodness. The second part is anticlimax in my opinion. It seems to focus on not losing which is passive. Winning is active. If you focus on not losing and your opponent focuses on winning they are going to beat you more often than not. Winning is aggressive.
You don't have to be a jerk but it should be plain that you are at an event to win. I have ran over friends many times in competition. Afterwards some were a bit hurt. "You didn't give me a chance!" No I didn't. In competition I am focused on beating the competition. If I can do it without them ever hitting the cue ball or them never having a real chance of pocketing a ball, so much the better! A friend gave me a chance, I ran eight and out on him. He didn't deliberately give me any more chances.
There are times to play around and be social. Those times aren't when cash or a tournament placing are on the line. I am friends with many fellow competitors, friendly with almost all of them. None of us are cutting each other any slack because we are friends, not during competition anyway.
Hu
Mentally and verbally you have to get rid of the platitudes. "I'm just here to donate", "I can't beat so and so" all of the BS things you are saying, real and false modesty, your unconscious accepts as fact. Quit saying anything that isn't positive, over time even quit thinking anything that isn't positive. When you wake up in the morning tell yourself you are a winner. When you walk by a mirror, stop, look yourself in the eye, and say with utmost sincerity "I am a winner." Do this every time you go by a mirror even if it was just two minutes ago that you did this. You are rearranging deep seated ideas, it isn't an easy thing. When you get in a vehicle to go to an event, yup, "I am a winner!" When you get to the event, "I am here to win!" Don't ride back and forth to an event with someone that is negative, don't hang with negative people at the event. Be polite, but never say anything less than positive about yourself.
You have two choices, hang by yourself, or hang with other people there to win. Hanging with people that aren't there to win makes it many times harder to win.
I think Bob may have the first edition of "The Pleasure of Small Motions". The first part of the revised edition that had an entire second section added to it is very good. The second part seems a little like filler. The original was little more than a booklet packed with goodness. The second part is anticlimax in my opinion. It seems to focus on not losing which is passive. Winning is active. If you focus on not losing and your opponent focuses on winning they are going to beat you more often than not. Winning is aggressive.
You don't have to be a jerk but it should be plain that you are at an event to win. I have ran over friends many times in competition. Afterwards some were a bit hurt. "You didn't give me a chance!" No I didn't. In competition I am focused on beating the competition. If I can do it without them ever hitting the cue ball or them never having a real chance of pocketing a ball, so much the better! A friend gave me a chance, I ran eight and out on him. He didn't deliberately give me any more chances.
There are times to play around and be social. Those times aren't when cash or a tournament placing are on the line. I am friends with many fellow competitors, friendly with almost all of them. None of us are cutting each other any slack because we are friends, not during competition anyway.
Hu