diagnosing stroke fundamentals

ndakotan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think that one rail kick shots to an easy ball in the corner may be a better guage of stroke straightness than hitting balls straight in. I didn't get to play as much this summer as I usually do due to work, so getting in the groove has been tougher. In order to see what I need to work on, I used my spring-powered cue to shoot one rail kicks to the corner. I am batting 1000 using the spring cue, and 75% using my playing cue. In order to diagnose the problem, one needs to be able to see if they missed the kick due to aim or english (or dead rails or unlevel table), but that's not tough if you've read Freddy's books. It is nice to be able to take variables like stroke off the table to see where you need work.

If anybody else has any methods of self diagnosis, let me know. I'm thinking of stuff you can do in tournament, not obvious stuff like video cameras and instructors.
 
one rail kick shots are good by can be hit softer. when pocketing a ball there are other things to work on: aim, speed, follow through, grip, stance...
 
One rail kicks are easy if your hitting the cue ball soft. If you need to hit it harder to get shape, that's where you have to pay attention to how high you hit the cue ball. Also, how hard you hit the cue ball. Or sometimes the perfect one rail kick has you aiming at the side pocket. Now you have to aim at a different spot and adjust speed/english or both.

Good luck.......
 
The "Mighty X" is a great method to see how true ones stroke is (either with follow, draw, stop, or even side, though these aren't part of it)...

JMO
Pete
 
"Mighty X" ... This isn't ringing any bells in my head. Have any more information available?
 
Did they ever open up another poolhall in Minot

I think that one rail kick shots to an easy ball in the corner may be a better guage of stroke straightness than hitting balls straight in. I didn't get to play as much this summer as I usually do due to work, so getting in the groove has been tougher. In order to see what I need to work on, I used my spring-powered cue to shoot one rail kicks to the corner. I am batting 1000 using the spring cue, and 75% using my playing cue. In order to diagnose the problem, one needs to be able to see if they missed the kick due to aim or english (or dead rails or unlevel table), but that's not tough if you've read Freddy's books. It is nice to be able to take variables like stroke off the table to see where you need work.

If anybody else has any methods of self diagnosis, let me know. I'm thinking of stuff you can do in tournament, not obvious stuff like video cameras and instructors.

Glad to see your hard at it.

I remember that spring cue and was surprised when you offered to give it to me. That was a pretty nice gesture. it's too bad there are not more of them around. It works really well.

Hope your leagues there are going strong.

My experience in Minot will always be special.

Say hi to the whole gang for me.

After being there I never stopped as you probably know.

I was a great way to start out on a 6 month teaching and playing trip.

Home home on the road.

Thanks again geno...
 
i think its a bert kinister drill or video?

Yep it's one of his old ones.

Draw a straight line from corner pocket to corner pocket. 2 diamonds up, one diamond out is where the cue ball and object ball are placed (you can put 2 object balls up at a time). Pocket the ball and draw the cue ball straight back into the pocket. In the video it is done on a bar box, but mus more difficult on a 9'er. He says set a goal of doing it 10 times per session. I think following straight in to the pocket is difficult too.

Hope this helps...

Pete
 
minot

Gene,

It is good to hear from you and I hope all of your projects are going well. We are without a pool hall in Minot unfortunately. Leagues seem to be doing well, but it will be interesting to effects of the job market and the new no-smoking policy.

NORTH DAKOTA IS NON-SMOKING.

I would love to see someone develop an accurate mechanical cue for diagnosing stoke issues. I think it is a powerful tool if you can eliminate variables for students.




Glad to see your hard at it.

I remember that spring cue and was surprised when you offered to give it to me. That was a pretty nice gesture. it's too bad there are not more of them around. It works really well.

Hope your leagues there are going strong.

My experience in Minot will always be special.

Say hi to the whole gang for me.

After being there I never stopped as you probably know.

I was a great way to start out on a 6 month teaching and playing trip.

Home home on the road.

Thanks again geno...
 
speed

One rail kicks are easy if your hitting the cue ball soft. If you need to hit it harder to get shape, that's where you have to pay attention to how high you hit the cue ball. Also, how hard you hit the cue ball. Or sometimes the perfect one rail kick has you aiming at the side pocket. Now you have to aim at a different spot and adjust speed/english or both.

Good luck.......

I agree cb or ob speed is the foundation of kicks and banks

if I need to put alittle steam on the shot I will go 3/4 of a tip outside english
with a meduim stroke, light stroke 1/4 tip outside english.

I have spent years on perfecting kicks and banks, No I dont have it perfected .

MMike
 
I think that one rail kick shots to an easy ball in the corner may be a better guage of stroke straightness than hitting balls straight in.
....
It is nice to be able to take variables like stroke off the table to see where you need work.

Am I the only dude who is confused?

In any case, I get that you're looking to think outside the box, but imo this is not a good test of stroke or fundamentals. It introduces a lot of variables, some of which you mentioned already... rail condition, table speed, etc... none of which have anything to do with "Is my arm doing what I'm commanding it to do". What if you kick in that hanger 30 times in a row, then go to another table and miss it? Did your fundamentals change or was it just the table plays differently?

A simpler test, and one piece of the Mighty X someone mentioned: If you set up a long straight in shot, and you rattle it, you can be sure had nothing to do with the table, and you can do that on any table in the world without needing to adjust for conditions first.
 
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I agree with CreeDo. Kicks add variables; they don't reduce them.

The long, straight draw and follow shots are great tests of your stroke. Make sure the balls are lined up perfectly straight to the center of the pocket. Otherwise you will never get the right result.

Here's two other good drills to develop excellent stroke fundamentals:

1) Using a spotted "measles" cue ball, line up a straight shot directly into a corner pocket, with the cue ball about 2-3 feet from the object ball and the object ball about 2-3 feet from the pocket. Orient the cue ball such that a line of four spots on the measles ball is perpendicular to the table and pointed directly at the object ball. Pocket the ball and draw back at least 5 feet. The goal is to have the ball draw back straight without English. If you used any English at all on the shot, the spotted cue ball will show you very clearly.

2) Place the cue ball on the head spot and the object ball on the foot spot. Shoot a stop shot straight into the object ball. The object ball will hit the foot rail, come back and hit the cue ball, and the cue ball will come straight back and hit your cue. If you can pull this off, you have an excellent stroke, excellent aim, and good equipment. This is a very very hard drill.
 
unintended english

....


Am I the only dude who is confused?

In any case, I get that you're looking to think outside the box, but imo this is not a good test of stroke or fundamentals. It introduces a lot of variables, some of which you mentioned already... rail condition, table speed, etc... none of which have anything to do with "Is my arm doing what I'm commanding it to do". What if you kick in that hanger 30 times in a row, then go to another table and miss it? Did your fundamentals change or was it just the table plays differently?

A simpler test, and one piece of the Mighty X someone mentioned: If you set up a long straight in shot, and you rattle it, you can be sure had nothing to do with the table, and you can do that on any table in the world without needing to adjust for conditions first.

Actually, if I am shooting poorly, it is generally unintended english due to poor aim at the cue ball, poor eye coordination from cueball to aim point, and arm swerve (flying elbow). I agree with the usefulness of the straight in shot, and like to expect a followin or straight drawback. Now that you mention it, I haven't done this in a while and should put it in my routine again. But frankly, straight-in shots by themselves don't impress me much unless you also pay attention to what the cue ball does (which may be what you are saying also).

People are able to adapt the straight-in shot to their stroke. If they play consistent unintended english, they unintendedly adjust their aim. If you watch the cueball, you can probably see this. On the other hand, I am able aim smaller at the rail than at a ball. I see my example in the op as an extension of my other favorite drill, which is hitting the ball straight into the rail and having it come straight back to the tip. Granted, I do drills on a table that plays straight with new rails and cloth, so I think that I've taken most of those variables "off the table". I would not trust this method on a poorly maintained table. In fact, when I miss 1 rail kicks or banks on any table, I rarely attribute the miss to the equipment it is really obvious or repetitive. Mostly I miss due to aim or inaccurate stroke.

To my eye, 1 rail kicks exagerate unitended english by a factor of 2 and so if you watch the path of the ball several times in a row, you should be able to repeat 1 rail kicks very closely.

Maybe my practice style/restrictions have something to do with my perceptions also. I think I get more repetitive practice in if I kick the cueball back to my side of the table and catching it before it knocks the hanger in for a quick reset rather than walking back and forth resetting the balls. Also, I try to practice quitely so others can sleep or do homework, and no-ball contact seems like a good way to go.

Finally, I have seen many people subconsciously adjust their stroke in real time to make the ball. In fact this can happen when trying to carom your object ball off a hanger and you actually make the hanger. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I think most of the time when people (lower-middle league players) make a ball, they would not have made it without a subconsicous adjustment in the final stroke. I think this adjustment is taken off the table when 1 rail kicking.
 
I agree that kicks aren't good to test stroke because speed has such a great influece on the rebound angle.

Try this.

1. "Draw" a laser level line between opposite corner pockets.

2. Use ring binder donuts mark the CB postion on that line at the head string.

3. Place an OB on that same line at the first diamond beyond the side pocket. (If you don't have a laser level thingy, get one at Home Depot or on line for 40 bucs or less. They (and the ring binder donuts) are ESSENTIAL to setting up exactly repeatable shots.

Now execute the following sequence of shots...of course replacing the CB and OB in their exact starting positions each time.

A. Stop Shot. (No more than 1/4 ball draw or follow allowed).
B. Drag Draw...allowing the CB to continue forward MORE than 1 ball width (so it's not a stop shot but LESS than 1 diamond so it's not a follow shot).
C. Stun Run Through with the CB going foward between 1 and two diamonds.
D. Follow Shot where scratching in the corner pocket would give you "extra credit."
E. Another Stop Shot. (to get you back to "square 1)
F. A "Medium Draw" with the CB coming back 1-2 diamonds.
G. Hard Draw with the CB coming back at least to the first diamond line while scratching in the corner pocket would be "extra credit."

This series of 7 shots requires a DEAD stroke...superior tip to CB contact points... and superior "touch."

Excellent idea...actually pretty much required....to use a striped ball as a CB with the stripe as exactly vertical as you can make it...or better yet, a Rempe practice CB so you can see how close to DEAD CENTER between the vertical lines (not dead center on the CB's equator obviously) you are making tip contact.

That is critical because if you miss any of the shots "english" (side) will likely be the cause rather than aim which is pretty self-evident on straight ins.

Gotta have a pretty sporty stroke and a LOT of touch to be able to execute the entire series. Ending practice sessions with at least 6 attempts eventually working up to finishing sessions with 3 perfect attempts in a row is a great thing to do.

If you don't REALLY understand what constitutes an excellent stroke this exercise will make that very clear because it will be difficult to impossible to do so getting professional guidance on repeatable stroke mechanics is essential.

Sporty players can use it to see just HOW consistent their strokes are and to build confidence.

(-:
 
To my eye, 1 rail kicks exagerate unitended english by a factor of 2 and so if you watch the path of the ball several times in a row, you should be able to repeat 1 rail kicks very closely.

Hey, it's a good thought. Maybe set it up so that you're kicking in a ball that's frozen to the head rail about a diamond from the pocket. Frozen is the keyword, the ball becomes a 'big ball' if it's off the rail a quarter inch or so.

If you can kick in that ball consistently, you must be hitting the cue ball the same way every time.

As long as we're getting creative, here's something that really tests your consistency. Robin Dodson has a jump video and one of the drills is to put an OB on the footspot, jump over it sending the CB towards the head spot, and have the cue ball come straight back to hit the ball you jumped. Sort of like the MOFUDAT with jumping.

Obviously it doesn't have much to do with your standard shooting, but it trains your brain and eyes to look for a tip that's even a tiny bit off to the side. If you put even a quarter tip of sidespin on the ball, you'll see the cue ball hook when it lands and then veer off the rail. I don't think I was able to do it once.
 
the MightyX we do it a lot in Holland. Feijen was the first one to do it, he has done a 1000 hours for sure
now it is elementary in training of juniors and the men
actually the draw shot is good for your powerstroke but the follow and scratch exposes stroke deficiency more...
the best i ever saw there was 96 out of 100 succes rate by a snooker player...who would not stand a chance on the draw btw
 
When I was in Vegas, Jamison Neu a.k.a. "Mr. Masse" showed me the best drill for that. Imagine a line from the spot into a corner pocket. Put cb on the spot and an object ball on the same line in the middle. Shoot the ball in the corner pocket and draw the cue ball a little bit. Then without repositioning the cue ball put another object ball on the same spot(in the middle of the line from the spot to the corner) and shoot the same shot again, then again. And see how many you can do in a row without using rails. Even some pros wouldn't be able to do more than 20 on the first try, A players do good if they can do it 10 times. Jamison's record is 78. I saw him do 20 a few times when warming up.
This exercise is a lot harder than what it seems like!
 
When I was in Vegas, Jamison Neu a.k.a. "Mr. Masse" showed me the best drill for that. Imagine a line from the spot into a corner pocket. Put cb on the spot and an object ball on the same line in the middle. Shoot the ball in the corner pocket and draw the cue ball a little bit. Then without repositioning the cue ball put another object ball on the same spot(in the middle of the line from the spot to the corner) and shoot the same shot again, then again. And see how many you can do in a row without using rails. Even some pros wouldn't be able to do more than 20 on the first try, A players do good if they can do it 10 times. Jamison's record is 78. I saw him do 20 a few times when warming up.
This exercise is a lot harder than what it seems like!

Damn - this looks like a fun one! (as in maddening!)

And thanks Pete!!! I didn't know that shot/practice had a name, but it's been in my bag of "how ballsy do i feel" tricks for a while. ;)
 
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