Diamond and Bad Boy Billiards

[JC]

Wanted to put a couple smart tables in our place and the freight here to the coast was a killer. Talked to the salesman back in Indiana about three months ago and he advised me to wait until the Western BCA tourney up the road from me in Lincoln City. He told me to get a hold of Rick up there and work it out. Sent an E mail to Rick explaining I was interested in a couple tournament used to cash and carry from the event. No reply. Sent another one about a month later, still no reply. Loaded up my wallet and trailer and headed up there last week. Turns out Rick had to call someone named Brian about it. So why was I waiting three months to talk to Rick? When I first inquired to Indiana the tables were listed for $3900 on the diamond web site. By the time last week came around I noticed they took all pricing down from the site. Didn't know if this was a good thing or a bad thing but soon found out. Well after Rick heard back from Brian I was quoted $4400 each. WTF? That was the new price I last saw for two or more tables a couple months back. Oh no Rick says, they're five grand. Hey pal, I know what I saw. Rick said if he sold me a couple then Brian would have to ship him replacements. So why am I up here with my trailer if I'm paying for shipping anyway? Oh it would be much more to ship them to you than it will cost for me to get them. Say what? As if I just fell off the turnip truck. I probably would have gotten those old red rail turds where the five and one ball return to the cue ball hole and it needed cloth anyway. I heard later the used balls were new ball price extra but didn't get far enough with Rick to ascertain the accuracy of that. I was excited to bring these tables home for our pool community and am now just simply disgusted with the greed of these people. Oh and while you're at it Diamond, fix the damned pockets from staining the balls already. How hard could that be? Wanna charge top dollar, perfect your product already. I have a feeling I will acquire some smart tables for a lot less soon enough now that I know I can't get a square deal through Diamond. The economy isn't all that good outside the Diamond factory or Bad Boys semi trucks after all. My accountant has a saying Diamond. Hogs get slaughtered.

Oh and I almost forgot, I think the "salesman" I was talking to in Indiana three months ago might actually be Brian but I forgot for sure. If so, why did I wait to see Rick up in Lincoln City if he just had to check with Brian anyway? I feel like I got circle jerked around.

End of rant.......

JC

 

[Rich Irving]

Same issue on a home table

I was in the market for a new table cash in hand. I got it down to two tables the pro-am diamond and a brunswick metro. After talking to the diamond sales person and there better than thou attitude. I went down to the local brunswick dealer and bought the metro and couldn't be happier saved about a grand and supported a local small bussiness.

 

[Paul8ball]

There is a misunderstanding about the conversation with Diamond. We apologize for the confusion. It looks as though the price quoted was for a 7' Pro Am (not coin operated.) The Tournament Used Smart Table that we used at Lincoln City is $4,100 which includes the Simonis 860 cloth, a ball rack, and a set of Super Aramith Pro Balls. For comparison, a new new Smart Table is $5,000.00. This price does not include freight. This price is our lowest price point for Smart Tables (for a quantity of ten or more tournament used tables.)

We take tables to Lincoln City, OR for tournaments several times per year. When tables are sold from the event, we charge a shipping fee even if tables are picked up from the event. This is because any tables taken from that event have to be replaced for the next event. So, we still have to pay to get these replacement tables to Lincoln City later. This is due to the fact that we leave a trailer in Lincoln City more or less permanently. The tournament requires more tables than will fit into one semi trailer. When are ready to do a tournament there we take a second trailer. If we sell a lot of tables from a previous event we do not have extra room on the trailer for the replacement tables. So, we attach a nominal freight charge of $300.00 per table for these replacements, as they will have to be shipped separately. However, this freight charge is less than the cost to ship tables from our plant in Indiana directly to customers in Oregon.

Our goal is to sell tables from tournaments at the lowest price possible to our customers. We are not being greedy, but we do need to cover the costs of getting the tables to you.

 

[JC]

There is a misunderstanding about the conversation with Diamond. We apologize for the confusion. It looks as though the price quoted was for a 7' Pro Am (not coin operated.) The Tournament Used Smart Table that we used at Lincoln City is $4,100 which includes the Simonis 860 cloth, a ball rack, and a set of Super Aramith Pro Balls. For comparison, a new new Smart Table is $5,000.00. This price does not include freight. This price is our lowest price point for Smart Tables (for a quantity of ten or more tournament used tables.)

We take tables to Lincoln City, OR for tournaments several times per year. When tables are sold from the event, we charge a shipping fee even if tables are picked up from the event. This is because any tables taken from that event have to be replaced for the next event. So, we still have to pay to get these replacement tables to Lincoln City later. This is due to the fact that we leave a trailer in Lincoln City more or less permanently. The tournament requires more tables than will fit into one semi trailer. When are ready to do a tournament there we take a second trailer. If we sell a lot of tables from a previous event we do not have extra room on the trailer for the replacement tables. So, we attach a nominal freight charge of $300.00 per table for these replacements, as they will have to be shipped separately. However, this freight charge is less than the cost to ship tables from our plant in Indiana directly to customers in Oregon.

Our goal is to sell tables from tournaments at the lowest price possible to our customers. We are not being greedy, but we do need to cover the costs of getting the tables to you.

I may be mistaken but I believe I read a price of $3900 the for tournament used the last time I looked before you guys removed the prices all together from your site. Silly me that I didn't realize I had to pay freight even though I drove up next to the tables with a trailer, two dollies and an envelope full of $100 bills. I had this crazy idea I would trade that cash for 2 decent tables and be on my way. If Rick would have ever returned my e-mails I wouldn't have been irritated and disappointed like this. My goal was to replace two old valleys at our home room with smart tables. I am now exploring other options.

Question? How many did Rick move out at your lowest possible price point plus U-Haul it yourself freight surcharge up there? Thanks for the clarification but I'm not buying it about the "nominal freight charge" and I'm not buying your tables. Not that you care.

JC

 

[Paul8ball]

The price for the Smart Table has been $4,100.00 since August 1st. Before that the price was $4,000.00. This price is for tournament used equipment and it is the price as if we were selling 10 or more tables on a single order. That $4,000.00 price had not changed in more than 5 years.

Rik sold at least 5 tables at the Lincoln City event that I am aware of.

I do care about treating people fairly. I am sorry if you feel that we did not take care of you. If I did not care I would not have replied to your post.

 

[MahnaMahna]

The price for the Smart Table has been $4,100.00 since August 1st. Before that the price was $4,000.00. This price is for tournament used equipment and it is the price as if we were selling 10 or more tables on a single order. That $4,000.00 price had not changed in more than 5 years.

Rik sold at least 5 tables at the Lincoln City event that I am aware of.

I do care about treating people fairly. I am sorry if you feel that we did not take care of you. If I did not care I would not have replied to your post.

Have no idea who is in the right or wrong here, but good for you for staying professional in this thread. There are numerous people who sell tables and services on here whose responses would not have been like yours.

 

[JC]

The price for the Smart Table has been $4,100.00 since August 1st. Before that the price was $4,000.00. This price is for tournament used equipment and it is the price as if we were selling 10 or more tables on a single order. That $4,000.00 price had not changed in more than 5 years.

Rik sold at least 5 tables at the Lincoln City event that I am aware of.

I do care about treating people fairly. I am sorry if you feel that we did not take care of you. If I did not care I would not have replied to your post.

If there is a "nominal" charge for freight when you show up with a trailer at the location of the tables then no, the price was not ever $4000. If 40 100 dollar bills will not allow you to load one in your trailer, that is not the price. This is not "confusion", it is deception hoping someone will want the table enough not to notice or care. It's just a little extra to charge at the scene and I wouldn't pay it. Had I known of this ahead of time I wouldn't have brought my truck and trailer up there. If the price was $4400 I should have been told that ahead of time one of the four times I contacted Diamond/Bad Boys about it.

Also you guys have some unfinished business down here with the last tables you delivered to Jessie. She is getting very frustrated about it last we spoke. Weren't you supposed to upgrade the rails for her? And how long had those T-12 lights been around before you delivered them to her. Hard to put the T-8 bulbs you recommend for your lights in fixtures left over from the 90s. I guess we're all just hicks down here eh?

Thank you for your professional partial response and good luck with your ventures.

JC

 

[Yukon Ed]

You're right Elwood. It is an important matter that I inadvertently chimed in on. I didn't read the thread thoroughly. Sorry and carry on. :embarrassed2:

 

[realkingcobra]

If there is a "nominal" charge for freight when you show up with a trailer at the location of the tables then no, the price was not ever $4000. If 40 100 dollar bills will not allow you to load one in your trailer, that is not the price. This is not "confusion", it is deception hoping someone will want the table enough not to notice or care. It's just a little extra to charge at the scene and I wouldn't pay it. Had I known of this ahead of time I wouldn't have brought my truck and trailer up there. If the price was $4400 I should have been told that ahead of time one of the four times I contacted Diamond/Bad Boys about it.

Also you guys have some unfinished business down here with the last tables you delivered to Jessie. She is getting very frustrated about it last we spoke. Weren't you supposed to upgrade the rails for her? And how long had those T-12 lights been around before you delivered them to her. Hard to put the T-8 bulbs you recommend for your lights in fixtures left over from the 90s. I guess we're all just hicks down here eh?

Thank you for your professional partial response and good luck with your ventures.

JC

Just wondering, if you go to a new car lot, and want to buy a car, and it's already on the car lot...because you can see it for yourself....do they take off the delivery sticker price because its already there?

 

[Elwood]

You, Mr. Ed, cared enough to post your opinion, just sayin'. If you don't care, move along...

 

[Elwood]

Hey Glenn. I like the car lot analogy. I agree. Can you address the question about the upgraded rails and the light fixture? Thanks in advance...

 

[JC]

Just wondering, if you go to a new car lot, and want to buy a car, and it's already on the car lot...because you can see it for yourself....do they take off the delivery sticker price because its already there?

Usually they do yes. That and more. Do you walk on a car lot and pay the price on the sticker Glen? Bad analogy. On the other hand if I'm buying a used car the negotiability improves greatly. These pool tables after all are used merchandise.

JC

 

[Elwood]

Oops, upon further review, metmot is absolutely correct. Bad analogy, Glenn. I know you are cozy with Diamond, and somewhat an apologist for them,and the (self proclaimed) best table mechanic in the country, but can you speak about Diamond's customer service? (i.e. the upgraded rails and light fixture). Just wonderin'...

 

[realkingcobra]

Usually they do yes. That and more. Do you walk on a car lot and pay the price on the sticker Glen? Bad analogy. On the other hand if I'm buying a used car the negotiability improves greatly. These pool tables after all are used merchandise.

JC

And, you got the used price, but just because the table has 4 legs, it didn't walk to Oregon State, and therefore would still have to be replaced back into inventory for the next tournament. Now, when I bring Rick his replacement tables, should I not charge him for the delivery of the tables, or is that just his cost of doing business? I normaly charge about 750 per table going to the Pacific Northwest

 

[realkingcobra]

Oops, upon further review, metmot is absolutely correct. Bad analogy, Glenn. I know you are cozy with Diamond, and somewhat an apologist for them,and the (self proclaimed) best table mechanic in the country, but can you speak about Diamond's customer service? (i.e. the upgraded rails and light fixture). Just wonderin'...

I don't know about them two subjects, but I do know I do spend a lot of time doing upgrades on the Diamond rails, as I'm the one that created the change, and I'm the only person alive that can make the changes on the road. But, I will ask Diamond about this when I get back to the factory in a couple of more weeks as I'm working on some Diamond tables in Virginia right now. And for clarification only, I don't "self proclaim" to be the best, I just work on tables to the best of my abilities, that's all. If others choose not to, that's not my fault, as for the most part, I wouldn't take the term "table mechanic" to seriously....as most mechanics only install the cloth...they don't really work on pool tables.

Glen

 

[Elwood]

Glenn, can you comment on Diamond's customer service or are your hands tied? Just wonderin'...

 

[realkingcobra]

I was in the market for a new table cash in hand. I got it down to two tables the pro-am diamond and a brunswick metro. After talking to the diamond sales person and there better than thou attitude. I went down to the local brunswick dealer and bought the metro and couldn't be happier saved about a grand and supported a local small bussiness.

There's always a list of tables available for customers with a "better than thou" attitude as well, Brunswick is one of them. See, the problem is, Diamond sells tables at their price, not the price someone looking to buy a table for, so if Diamond didn't lower their price to meet your requirements, good for them, they have employee's to pay as well, and they can't do that giving their price away to someone to cheap to buy the best quality built table on the market today. If you wanted to buy a Brunswick, you should have bought the Gold Crown 5, as the Metro is a piece of junk, and has no resale value what-so-ever...but Brunswick probably wanted to much for the GC5 for your liking as well, and wouldn't sell it to you at your price line either

Glen

 

[Scott Lee]

I have no dog in this fight. I like Glen and his work. I like Diamond and Greg, and they make a great product. I don't "negotiate" on my fees either...for exhibitions or lessons. That said, I'm thinking that metmot was more pissed because he couldn't get any straight answers out of anybody, even though he tried several times, over several months (and probably thought he was getting the 'runaround'). He likely thought he could 'show up' and maybe save a few bucks. That's not unusual...although it appears that it was not going to happen with this product. Somewhere the communication stream broke down. Who is at fault is less the issue, than why did it happen at all. Every business (and businessperson) should strive to keep in communication with their customers (or potential customers). You can never please everybody, all the time...but imo you should still try! It's just good business sense. :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

And, you got the used price, but just because the table has 4 legs, it didn't walk to Oregon State, and therefore would still have to be replaced back into inventory for the next tournament. Now, when I bring Rick his replacement tables, should I not charge him for the delivery of the tables, or is that just his cost of doing business? I normaly charge about 750 per table going to the Pacific Northwest

 

[Elwood]

Glenn, you are probably the most knowledgeable person in the universe regarding how to make a table (Diamond or otherwise) play right. I would never dispute that. I'm sorry if I have a burr in my saddle, (I love that, "burr in my saddle" lol) but I have an issue with buying a brand new Diamond pro-am in December of '09 and shortly thereafter reading that my rails need to be upgraded! WTF! I'm not very happy regarding Diamond and their customer service. I love my table, but I'm not very happy with the schmoes who sell their tables! Just sayin'. I'm sorry I went off on you. If you want further info about how Diamond's customer service is ridiculously inept, shoot me a p.m.

 

[realkingcobra]

Glenn, can you comment on Diamond's customer service or are your hands tied? Just wonderin'...

I'll tell you this, in the 11 years I've given my support to Diamond, they've bent over back-wards to support their product and service. I've spent a lot of time teaching and training other table mechanics to work on Diamonds as much as I possibly can, but I'll tell you this, Oregon and the Pacific Northwest is one of the worst areas of support Diamond gets because there's no table mechanics up in that area that really want to learn to do something other than install cloth. And Oregon, like Texas has some of the worst table mechanics in this country, I can say that with experience, having worked in both regions for many years. Some things might take Diamond a while to get to, but if someone's been promised something from Diamond, Diamond will follow through one way or another. I can also say that Diamond has put up with a lot more shit than I ever would when it comes to service, as even I have a breaking point. I once was delivering some Diamond smart tables to a bar in Portland, but had other drop-offs/installs first along the way, namely Sioux Falls, SD in December, at -50 degrees, three snow blizzards in a row, freeways closed, all in a 30 day period. Bar owner in Oregon called me on the phone, cussed me out for not being there already, said Diamond told him I'd be there before Christmas...and where was I? I told him, first of all, Diamond don't control the weather, second...he has a bigger problem than that, because I don't work for Diamond directly, and I wasn't putting up with his BS, and when the weather cleared...I was going to take his tables back to the Diamond factory, and he could then make new arraignments with Diamond to get someone else to deliver his pool tables....but, Diamond "Brian" still talked me into delivering the pool tables...but only after the bar owner apologized for talking to me the way he did.

So, like I said, I'll look into the situation with the upgraded rails and light, as I know which tables you're talking about, I've been there, very nice lady that owns that bar.

Glen