Diamond Banking System

[dr_dave]

Using the diamonds to visualize "geometric" angles or "system" angles is just a way of getting more information. You don't have to shoot any shot right on the angle you visualize that way, and visualizing angles that way doesn't prevent you from using any of the angle-changing techniques you mention. In fact, it helps to figure exactly what angle change might be needed and what technique might be best to produce it. If used correctly, measurements and systems are references, not limitations.

Amen!

Kick and bank systems are not silver bullets, but they do provide valuable information (especially for players who don't have perfect intuition developed from many years of intelligent practice and successful play). However, you still need to know (or "feel") how to adjust for all of the important kick and bank effects.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Dead Crab:
2. If you shoot a 1-rail bank "through" the diamond, it will tend to come up short because it will hit the cushion higher up the rail than the actual diamond position. So, some compensation is needed for this.

Dave:
Actually, with a rolling-ball kick or bank, this system works very well.

Yes, assuming the ball hits the rail with forward roll, such as happens at slow-to-medium speed (I assume Dead Crab is talking about faster speeds where the ball isn't rolling fully). With forward roll the "masse" that happens after the ball hits the rail makes it curve longer than the "equal angle", and aiming through the diamonds shortens the angle, which helps to correct for that.

Another feature of through-the-diamond aiming is that it automatically corrects (approximately) for the steepness of the bank/kick angle - as the angle widens and the masse curve has greater effect, the through-the-diamond angle automatically steepens more compared to the "equal angle".

None of this is totally automatic, of course. Experienced adjustment is often necessary for different speeds, table conditions, etc.

pj
chgo

 

[onepocketron]

I use the system as a guide, rather than just make an all out complete guess (mostly for kicking at balls). Different tables, conditions, humidity, etc make a big difference on the system. I personally find the system very helpful in certain situations (usually when you have to kick more than one rail).

 

[Banks]

I agree with Jay. There's no substitute for feel. Systems may work for some under good conditions, but what happens when the ball is frozen to the rail, an inch off the rail, you have to get leave, playing an off/def bank, risking a double-kiss, etc? And for good bankers, it can be a runout game.

Practice using all types of english on your banks, hitting them from different angles, etc. Couple of examples: When you cut an OB sharp with the CB to bank it across, use a little inside english to compensate for the extra push and spin that will be imparted to the OB (helpful for banking from close to one side pocket to the other). Sometimes find a slightly wider angle and hit the bank harder - this can cut the distance from hit-spot on the rail to the hit-spot where the pocket is, shaving a little off of the margin of error.

If you want general help, play with the systems. If you want something more precise and applicable in funny situations, put in the time and play around with banking.

 

[freddy the beard]

Come again, Jaybird?

No systems in bank pool worth anything, Jay? No system players? I must have wasted my time playing systems for 50 yrs, writing 2 bank pool books, and doing 2 DVDs that have a totally opposite point of view.

Since we are such long time pals, I seldom find cause to disagree with Jay, but in this case, since my actual livelihood now depends on my teaching credibility and the sales of my books and DVDs, I must defend my work.

I have used systems all my life, and I think at times, I played a pretty good speed. Beating Tony Fargo badly playing even, and spotting Ronnie Allen 9 to 7 in his home court, Big Mama's in 1970, are a few events of note. There were many others.

Now if he were to say, systems without knowing how to make adjustments, is not of any great import, he would be right. Cloth, speed of stroke, draw, follow, english, humidity, etc., all make differences.
Fortunately, the systems I outline in my works include adjustments for those variances.

I also believe in my heart that I can work with any of todays top bankers and improve their game a minimum of 9 to 8 in a months time. I would relish the opportunity to prove that point.

That's not just blowing in the wind. Does anybody think that at age 50, Jet Johnson suddenly became a top notch banker? He was always a top shortstop, but he was miles away from beating a Truman Hogue, which he did twice, after I worked with him for awhile.

Now, on to his point about "feel." He was right, the best players in the world, when they were playing their best, played by feel. As much of an advocate I am about pool science and math, I believe and subscribe to the philosophy that a players ultimate goal is to be able to play by instinct and feel alone. When I played my top speed, I played with instinct and feel.
Unfortunately for us humans, we don't always "feel" good. Every match and every shot aint always a cake walk. Oftentimes pressure and game/bet conditions overload our stress capacity and we become "lost." It's at that point that players with a solid background of systems, adjustments, pool science and pool mechanics, can pull theirselves together and soldier on.

Also, don't ever think that players like Bugs and Taylor were brain dead when it came to knowing what they were doing. Bugs was amazingly knowledgeable about bank pool, and showed me plenty.


Beard

 

[Dead Crab]

Actually, with a rolling-ball kick or bank, this system works very well. For a demonstration, see:

through-diamond rolling-cue-ball one-rail kick system​

provided you have also taken into account other bank effects, when appropriate.

Regards,
Dave

For kicks, I agree, as it is possible to exert control over the roll and avoid sidespin.

For banks, controlling the degree of roll is much more difficult, especially when the OB is anywhere near the rail.

 

[dr_dave]

Actually, with a rolling-ball kick or bank, this system works very well. For a demonstration, see:

through-diamond rolling-cue-ball one-rail kick system​

provided you have also taken into account other bank effects, when appropriate.

For kicks, I agree, as it is possible to exert control over the roll and avoid sidespin.

For banks, controlling the degree of roll is much more difficult

... except for slower or longer banks where the OB can develop forward roll before hitting the cushion.

especially when the OB is anywhere near the rail.

Agreed. Systems should be used only when the shot is appropriate for the system. For fast banks, or for banks where the OB is close to the cushion, where practically no forward roll develops, a better system is the adjust-mirror-aim-by-1/3-diamond system. Many bankers prefer fast speed because of the effects described here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#speed​

Regards,
Dave

 

[jay helfert]

No systems in bank pool worth anything, Jay? No system players? I must have wasted my time playing systems for 50 yrs, writing 2 bank pool books, and doing 2 DVDs that have a totally opposite point of view.

Since we are such long time pals, I seldom find cause to disagree with Jay, but in this case, since my actual livelihood now depends on my teaching credibility and the sales of my books and DVDs, I must defend my work.

I have used systems all my life, and I think at times, I played a pretty good speed. Beating Tony Fargo badly playing even, and spotting Ronnie Allen 9 to 7 in his home court, Big Mama's in 1970, are a few events of note. There were many others.

Now if he were to say, systems without knowing how to make adjustments, is not of any great import, he would be right. Cloth, speed of stroke, draw, follow, english, humidity, etc., all make differences.
Fortunately, the systems I outline in my works include adjustments for those variances.

I also believe in my heart that I can work with any of todays top bankers and improve their game a minimum of 9 to 8 in a months time. I would relish the opportunity to prove that point.

That's not just blowing in the wind. Does anybody think that at age 50, Jet Johnson suddenly became a top notch banker? He was always a top shortstop, but he was miles away from beating a Truman Hogue, which he did twice, after I worked with him for awhile.

Now, on to his point about "feel." He was right, the best players in the world, when they were playing their best, played by feel. As much of an advocate I am about pool science and math, I believe and subscribe to the philosophy that a players ultimate goal is to be able to play by instinct and feel alone. When I played my top speed, I played with instinct and feel.
Unfortunately for us humans, we don't always "feel" good. Every match and every shot aint always a cake walk. Oftentimes pressure and game/bet conditions overload our stress capacity and we become "lost." It's at that point that players with a solid background of systems, adjustments, pool science and pool mechanics, can pull theirselves together and soldier on.

Also, don't ever think that players like Bugs and Taylor were brain dead when it came to knowing what they were doing. Bugs was amazingly knowledgeable about bank pool, and showed me plenty.


Beard

My dear Freddie The Beard Without The Beard,

I knew that my answer here would not meet with favor from everyone. I try to call it like I see it every time, and let the chips fall where they may. Kind of like in the book I wrote, I didn't hold anything back in those stories.

I will agree that having a basis in some type of system, including the Diamond system, can only be helpful to a complete pool player's book of knowledge. Almost all us old timers got schooled on the Diamond system by our mentors when we were kids. It does have value for seeing where a naturally rolling ball will go.

But at the same time, once a player's game becomes more advanced, all that system stuff goes out the window and his feel for the game takes over. Systems (and Diamonds) becomes the foundation that his present game is built upon, which is now system less. Same can be said for all the basics in stance, bridge and stroking technique. At some level, a player no longer consciously thinks about these things anymore. He just plays the game and trusts his ability to do things, innately, the right way for him.

I will say this, that there are certainly situations where many good players will refer to the Diamond system, particularly on difficult kick shots. Aa far as Banks go, my buddy Freddie here is the all time professor! If he shares some knowledge it would be best to pay close attention. Whatever he calls his methods (system or ?) I would suggest he knows a bit more about it than I do.

One question Freddie, what system do you use to shoot a three rail bank cross side? You know the one, where the object ball is hit from below the side pocket, goes two rails (back and forth) above the side and then comes back into the side pocket. Is there any system that covers a shot like that? :wink:

 

[Snapshot9]

Funny

you should mention this subject, I had a situation pop up last weekend in an 8 ball tournament. I was running out, and had to get out about to the middle of the table to get a shot on the 8 ball into the upper right left corner.
My opponent had 2 balls along the rail just past the side pocket.

I ended up 1 inch short and could not cut the 8 down the rail into the corner, so the best shot I had (I felt) was a 3 rail bank around to the corner. I used the diamonds and where the 8 ball was as a reference, and then adjusted my aim based upon feel. I made the 8 ball dead center, and won the game.

My opponent (a 2 handicap) was impressed, and I was relieved. I had not had to shoot a 3 rail bank in 8 ball competition in years? I think. I attribute that I made that shot partly from knowing the diamond system, but mostly because when I do practice, I spend most of the time on making bank shots.

I feel that both Jay and Freddie (love my shirt) are both right, but I think Freddie gave a little more of a detailed explanation.

 

[freddy the beard]

3 rail cross side

My dear Freddie The Beard Without The Beard,

I knew that my answer here would not meet with favor from everyone. I try to call it like I see it every time, and let the chips fall where they may. Kind of like in the book I wrote, I didn't hold anything back in those stories.

I will agree that having a basis in some type of system, including the Diamond system, can only be helpful to a complete pool player's book of knowledge. Almost all us old timers got schooled on the Diamond system by our mentors when we were kids. It does have value for seeing where a naturally rolling ball will go.

But at the same time, once a player's game becomes more advanced, all that system stuff goes out the window and his feel for the game takes over. Systems (and Diamonds) becomes the foundation that his present game is built upon, which is now system less. Same can be said for all the basics in stance, bridge and stroking technique. At some level, a player no longer consciously thinks about these things anymore. He just plays the game and trusts his ability to do things, innately, the right way for him.

I will say this, that there are certainly situations where many good players will refer to the Diamond system, particularly on difficult kick shots. Aa far as Banks go, my buddy Freddie here is the all time professor! If he shares some knowledge it would be best to pay close attention. Whatever he calls his methods (system or ?) I would suggest he knows a bit more about it than I do.

One question Freddie, what system do you use to shoot a three rail bank cross side? You know the one, where the object ball is hit from below the side pocket, goes two rails (back and forth) above the side and then comes back into the side pocket. Is there any system that covers a shot like that? :wink:

There is a bit of a method to the 3 rail cross side. Aside from the many different positions the shot can lay in, a key factor that covers most layouts is the speed of stroke. Here is a good general rule of thumb on those shots: If you want to play the shot twice cross side, hit it very hard. If you want to play the shot 3 times cross side, take a little speed off and do not hit it as hard as the twice shot. Try it.

Beard

As far as a system to make the twice and three timer crossside, I actually do have a perfect position to start out from that I demonstrate in my first DVD, Banks That Dont Go -- But Do, but you are going to have to spring for the DVD.

 

[dr_dave]

There is a bit of a method to the 3 rail cross side. Aside from the many different positions the shot can lay in, a key factor that covers most layouts is the speed of stroke. Here is a good general rule of thumb on those shots: If you want to play the shot twice cross side, hit it very hard. If you want to play the shot 3 times cross side, take a little speed off and do not hit it as hard as the twice shot. Try it.

If people want to see demonstrations and explanations for these shots, they can be found here:

two-times and three-times across side bank shots​

Regards,
Dave

 

[conrad]

Excellent demonstration

If people want to see demonstrations and explanations for these shots, they can be found here:

two-times and three-times across side bank shots​

Regards,
Dave

Terrific demonstration of the 2 and 3x cross-side. Watching the throw react off the cushions is something.
That is the same exact layout that Freddy The Beard uses in his book and DVD for that shot. Did you guys colude on that shot? He doesn't show it in slo-mo, but you didn't mention his two different speeds tip.

Conrad

 

[jay helfert]

There is a bit of a method to the 3 rail cross side. Aside from the many different positions the shot can lay in, a key factor that covers most layouts is the speed of stroke. Here is a good general rule of thumb on those shots: If you want to play the shot twice cross side, hit it very hard. If you want to play the shot 3 times cross side, take a little speed off and do not hit it as hard as the twice shot. Try it.

Beard

As far as a system to make the twice and three timer crossside, I actually do have a perfect position to start out from that I demonstrate in my first DVD, Banks That Dont Go -- But Do, but you are going to have to spring for the DVD.

I like your "explanation" of how to hit this shot. Like I said, it's all about feel! :smile:

I'll trade you three proposition/trick shots that you don't already know for one DVD! Guaranteed money makers, and you can put them on your next DVD. How about them apples! Just tell them the Jaybird showed them to you.

 

[freddy the beard]

Unlikely

I like your "explanation" of how to hit this shot. Like I said, it's all about feel! :smile:

I'll trade you three proposition/trick shots that you don't already know for one DVD! Guaranteed money makers, and you can put them on your next DVD. How about them apples! Just tell them the Jaybird showed them to you.

If they are bank pool trick shots it is very unlikely that I dont know them. :grin:
I will trust you however and send you the DVD.

Beard

Feel? I thought I was pretty specific. Hit the 2 railers hard and hit the 3 timer medium speed.

 

[dr_dave]

If people want to see demonstrations and explanations for these shots, they can be found here:

two-times and three-times across side bank shots​

Terrific demonstration of the 2 and 3x cross-side.

Thanks.

That is the same exact layout that Freddy The Beard uses in his book and DVD for that shot. Did you guys colude on that shot? He doesn't show it in slo-mo, but you didn't mention his two different speeds tip.

I did this video with Tom Ross (my VEPS collaborator). The action of these shots depends a lot on speed, cut angle, and ball/cloth conditions. The setups and speeds we used were the most "natural" on my table (i.e., we had to vary the angle and speed a little to find the "sweet spots").

Regards,
Dave

 

[jay helfert]

If they are bank pool trick shots it is very unlikely that I dont know them. :grin:
I will trust you however and send you the DVD.

Beard

Feel? I thought I was pretty specific. Hit the 2 railers hard and hit the 3 timer medium speed.

Not banks! I'll show you a cut shot that always gets the money. Looks impossible but you can make it one out of five times (ask for 25 and take 20). Two balls frozen on the spot and you make the second ball straight in the corner - every time! Make a ball move backward into the pocket! Not the cue ball either. And there are a couple more if you've already seen any of these.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Did you guys collude on that shot? ...

The 3-cushion shot has been common since at least the 1960s. It was said to be a favorite of Minnesota Fats, and is on page 115 of Byrne's 1982 book on trick shots. It can also be done along the end rails which makes it useful at one pocket in strange situations and at bank pool. Mike Massey likes to do it the long way along the long rail as either a 1- 2- or 3-cushion shot.

 

[freddy the beard]

I really hate to...

The 3-cushion shot has been common since at least the 1960s. It was said to be a favorite of Minnesota Fats, and is on page 115 of Byrne's 1982 book on trick shots. It can also be done along the end rails which makes it useful at one pocket in strange situations and at bank pool. Mike Massey likes to do it the long way along the long rail as either a 1- 2- or 3-cushion shot.

bang my drum again, but I do cover all those bumps in my DVD, Banks That Don't Go -- But Do! -- along with a cross side 4x thrown in for good measure.

Beard

 

[pwd72s]

More bad news for all you prospective Bankers. Forget ALL the systems! Yes, you heard me right. Forget about it! Banks is not about systems, it's about feel for the rails, the balls, the english, the cloth and all that. If you have to think about it too much, you'll never make it. You better be able to look at that bank and "feel" how you have to hit it.

All the good bankers were feel players. They never had to analyze the angles and use any system to figure out where to hit a bank. What was going on in their minds was, what's the proper contact point on the object ball, how hard to hit the ball, and how much english to use. And they made these calculations almost instantly on most shots. They see the shot and they "know" how to hit it. When you see a banker studying a shot, he is figuring how much room he has and what he has to do to make this shot. He's not studying the diamonds, you can believe that.

You can greatly affect the angle of any bank shot by how you hit the object ball, using speed and english to change the angle. In other words the same shot can be hit several different ways to alter the angle of the bank. I hope this all makes sense because it's what makes good bankers as opposed to system players. You could know the diamond system like the back of your hand and not have a chance against a Bugs or a Taylor. The diamond system may be good for kicking at balls when you're hooked, but I'm not so sure these aren't feel shots as well. You can alter kicking angles just as easily as bank angles.

Listen to some good bankers talking sometime. They are talking about "squeezing" and "holding" and "opening up" banks. You hear conver-sations about how much the rails grab and how short or long they bank. This ain't the diamond system they're talking about. Believe me they're not even looking at those diamonds on the rail!

I am truely screwed...:sorry:

 

[Banks]

While I believe that there is no substitute for feel, I'll defer to Freddy in saying that a system can provide a great base for players without a natural instinct for these shots or can even help to narrow their aim.

Pwd72s, it sounds like you need fundamental help with banking. You should pick up some of Freddy's material as I have heard nothing but good reviews about it. I admit that I do have his banking CD, but have yet to watch it all the way through. After learning the general rules and angles of the banks, you will then be able to adjust for your own feel on the shots with the knowledge that you will still be in the area of your target.

To sum it up.. get it, learn it, use it.