Diamond system history

J

JPol

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I am searching for the "beginning" of the "diamond system".

I would like to know the persons who had the idea to use a formula, the
persons who defined the coding of the diamonds, the persons who improve it,
and the dates of that (probably around 1920).

At the moment, I have nothing except an article of J. Earle Miller
in "Popular Mechanics Magazine" April 1926, which describes the system and
mainly the "McGoorty, A pool room hustler" of R.Byrne, where, page 167,
Dann McGoorty said

"Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with
developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson".

I've seen elsewhere that Johnny Layton was named "The Diamond King", and that
Michael Phelan was responsible of the diamonds.

Have anyone some references ?

Thanks in advance,

J-P.G, France
 
In 1850 Michael Phelan was the first American to author a book on billiards.

There were a few previous books published in Europe, in which "aiming methods" and "banking methods" were illustrated and explained, with shot diagrams etc. You might be able to say that those were the first, published, "aiming systems".

But in my opinion, and as far as I know, it was Michael Phelan who deliberately addressed the diamonds first. He has even been credited for being the first to place diamonds in the rails at all.

Look in his book "Billiards Without A Master" starting on page 58
http://chicagobilliardmuseum.org/files/1850_Billiards_Without_a_Master_PHELAN.pdf
 
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JPol said:
I am searching for the "beginning" of the "diamond system".

I would like to know the persons who had the idea to use a formula, the
persons who defined the coding of the diamonds, the persons who improve it,
and the dates of that (probably around 1920).

At the moment, I have nothing except an article of J. Earle Miller
in "Popular Mechanics Magazine" April 1926, which describes the system and
mainly the "McGoorty, A pool room hustler" of R.Byrne, where, page 167,
Dann McGoorty said

"Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with
developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson".

I've seen elsewhere that Johnny Layton was named "The Diamond King", and that
Michael Phelan was responsible of the diamonds.

Have anyone some references ?

Thanks in advance,

J-P.G, France
Click to expand...

All roads lead to Mingaud.
 
Mingaud

There are no diamonds or markers on Mingaud's diagrams...so could you explain what you mean?
 
This is an interesting thread, JPol - and deserving of more attention and possible input.

I’ll see what I can dig up and do some sleuthing in my cuesports library.

Any chance to resurrect / restart / post this gem in the Main section?

~ K.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
K2Kraze said:
This is an interesting thread, JPol - and deserving of more attention and possible input.

I’ll see what I can dig up and do some sleuthing in my cuesports library.

Any chance to resurrect / restart / post this gem in the Main section?

~ K.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

i would really like to read whatever you can find.
 
maldito said:
I read somewhere it was Bob Cannefax - found this

http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/Cannefax.pdf


probably there were ideas on this before by others
Click to expand...

And the Cannefax charts are as wrong as the ones in Hoppe's book. No adjustment for third rail contact. All the 2s on the third rail go to the corner. Those people must have known that was wrong. Why did they print it?
 
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Bob Jewett said:
And the Cannefax charts are as wrong as the ones in Hoppe's book. No adjustment for third rail contact. All the 2s on the third rail go to the corner. Those people must have known that was wrong. Why did they print it?
Click to expand...

I doubt they even looked at the stuff.
They got a royalty for every one sold, and that's all they cared about.
It seems like back then, no one ever broke the thieves code and told an outsider anything.
I'm sure you know,this is for those trying to learn , but every one of those great players could be traced back to another great player or more who took them under their wing and tutored them.
Many of them were nephews . I think the only one they never could trace back was Thomas Hueston, there wasn't another great player within 200 miles of where he grew up.
My memory isn't worth 10 cents any more so if it wasn't Hueston , please give the correct name.
But, as far as I know , only 1 champion player besides Mingaud, ever had a possibility of learning, without a previous champions help.
 
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Mardon (1844) does not have diamonds either. Of course, that deals with a different game, and doubling (banking) at that time was probably not common. The earliest I can find diamonds is in Phelan (Billiards Without A Master, 1850).
 
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Richard Kapela said:
Mardon (1844) does not have diamonds either. Of course, that deals with a different game, and doubling (banking) at that time was probably not common. The earliest I can find diamonds is in Phelan (Billiards Without A Master, 1850).
Click to expand...
So far as I know, the British never put multiple, evenly-spaced sights (diamonds) around their rails. Whether it was Phelan's invention or someone else's is a good question. Have we answered that yet?
 
Has anyone looked at Allen Gilbert's booklet, Systematic Billiards?

It's not the first billiard system but Allen included adjustments for all his systems in the booklet.

His Short Rail System with adjustment helped me hit the lowest numbered ball when I played 9 Ball.

There other systems in his booklet but they were too complicated for me.

Allen gave me his last copy just before he passed away.
 
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brunswick1901 said:
Has anyone looked at Allen Gilbert's booklet, Systematic Billiards?
...
Click to expand...
Yes, I read through it when it first came out in 1977. I never really tried to memorize/use the systems. I'm lucky enough to have both Eddie Robin's copy and Robert Byrne's copy.

There were at least two printings, one with very stiff green cardboard covers and gold lettering and one that has thinner, black covers. In addition, there were at least two translations into Spanish and one into German.

In one of his systems similar to the corner-5 but with no side spin, you use increasing elevation as the cue ball's approach to the first rail becomes more parallel to that rail. I don't think I've seen that kind of adjustment in any other diamond system. I think Allen's systems were entirely his own invention.

If anyone wants a copy, I have some extras I'm selling.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Yes, I read through it when it first came out in 1977. I never really tried to memorize/use the systems. I'm lucky enough to have both Eddie Robin's copy and Robert Byrne's copy.

There were at least two printings, one with very stiff green cardboard covers and gold lettering and one that has thinner, black covers. In addition, there were at least two translations into Spanish and one into German.

In one of his systems similar to the corner-5 but with no side spin, you use increasing elevation as the cue ball's approach to the first rail becomes more parallel to that rail. I don't think I've seen that kind of adjustment in any other diamond system. I think Allen's systems were entirely his own invention.

If anyone wants a copy, I have some extras I'm selling.
Click to expand...
If you would like to learn how the diamonds connect with adjustments I suggest you contact Bob about getting a copy Systematic Billiards..
 
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