Diamond Systems don't work on Diamond Tables
- Thread starter Flip_dat_Quarta
- Start date
Perhaps he is smart enough to understand what a figure of speech is?
I'm just sayin...
Dale
Good points all.
Mr Byrne also pointed out that one should be prepared that to deal with the possibility
that different rails on the same table might bank differently.
Dale
How is that going to work? The further out an angle travels the furtherer away from a designated target point it will reach. As the angle and lines increase, the result will grow exponentially. How will adjusting that many INCHES give a desired result? I don't get it.
Then again, you don't either.
Place cue ball at one corner pocket.
Shoot ball at second diamond past the centre pocket.
The objective is to have the cue ball go three cushions into the adjacent corner pocket.
If you cannot pocket the cue ball, adjust speed, spin, or aim point, either higher or lower than the second diamond, until you find the correct aim point.
Repeat for each corner pocket.
You may find out that a different aim point is required for each corner.
A table I play on regularly was treated to new cushions and new cloth.
It changed the aim point by a full diamond.
Balls may skid when making contact with new cloth.
Now move the cue ball one diamond up the side rail and repeat the exercise, the objective is to still pocket the cue ball.
Move the cue ball to the diamond closest to the pocket on end rail and repeat.
Once you understand how parallel paths to the side rail perform, you will start to understand the path the cue ball will take around the table, and gain the ability to hit any ball on that particular path.
Then comes the the ability to vary the contact point on the side rail to adjust for the position of the cue ball or the position of the object ball.
The foregoing has no magic mathematical calculations - you simply shoot the ball to learn the path it travels around the table, then use your imagination and technique to adapt this knowledge to game situations.
Shoot ball at second diamond past the centre pocket.
The objective is to have the cue ball go three cushions into the adjacent corner pocket.
If you cannot pocket the cue ball, adjust speed, spin, or aim point, either higher or lower than the second diamond, until you find the correct aim point.
Repeat for each corner pocket.
You may find out that a different aim point is required for each corner.
A table I play on regularly was treated to new cushions and new cloth.
It changed the aim point by a full diamond.
Balls may skid when making contact with new cloth.
Now move the cue ball one diamond up the side rail and repeat the exercise, the objective is to still pocket the cue ball.
Move the cue ball to the diamond closest to the pocket on end rail and repeat.
Once you understand how parallel paths to the side rail perform, you will start to understand the path the cue ball will take around the table, and gain the ability to hit any ball on that particular path.
Then comes the the ability to vary the contact point on the side rail to adjust for the position of the cue ball or the position of the object ball.
The foregoing has no magic mathematical calculations - you simply shoot the ball to learn the path it travels around the table, then use your imagination and technique to adapt this knowledge to game situations.
Speaking of diamonds, Willie Mosconi did not like to play on Gold Crowns. The Gold Crown was the first Brunswick that had a curved or con vexed rail. He played low to the cue shaft and couldn't see the diamonds (actually spots) on Gold Crowns when he shot. Try it sometime and you'll see what he was talking about. The Diamond tables have the flat rail and Mosconi, if this story is true, would have loved playing on the Diamond tables.
If you are not familiar w/the corner 5 system's math, you should get Grady Matthew's Banking and Safety Play dvd - he does an excellent job of showing how to kick 3 rails w/adjustments once you find what diamond you dhoot to from the corner to get the the opposite corner. He also discussed 2 railers.
No math required , it's a quick and simple guide. But you still have to find where to hit to get the corner, which changes on many tables.
dave
No math required , it's a quick and simple guide. But you still have to find where to hit to get the corner, which changes on many tables.
dave
Faster Rails = Steeper Rebounds?
Do Diamond cushions rebound steeper than other tables? Do they also rebound faster (less loss of speed)? Do they rebound steeper because they rebound faster - i.e., the cross-table speed component increases compared to the lengthwise speed component?
pj
chgo
Do Diamond cushions rebound steeper than other tables? Do they also rebound faster (less loss of speed)? Do they rebound steeper because they rebound faster - i.e., the cross-table speed component increases compared to the lengthwise speed component?
pj
chgo
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I think they rebound longer and faster. That's what I was told by some guys doing an experiment on GCs. They had a ramp of about four inches height and rolled a ball off its top end toward a rail and noted its resting point after hitting the rail. They showed me where that same height ramp roll would go on a Diamond, and it was about 2 feet further as I recall.
When I first got my Diamond, I found my normal 3 rail line to the pocket (shooting at the 2nd diamond) went a diamond long. Shooting instead at the 3rd diamond, backing up the line a diamond, made the line work again. Very easy to remember and adjust.
I didn't attribute that to the rails, but the newness of the cloth. Now that it's about 5 years old, it's rolling less than half that long, so I aim about a quarter diamond short of a line I use on a GC or a public table with some dirtier, higher friction cloth. Maybe the rails had something to do with it other than the newness of the cloth on them, but I don't think the rails changed much in a climate controlled house.
I find several systems I use make me not just a big favorite to make a good hit, but to pocket the ball on multi-rail kicks. It's accurate enough that I coach my teammates where to aim their multi-rail kicks, and they make them also, even without a practiced stroke speed or a dialed in running English standard for that kick line.
Oddly, though, I do not use the classic corner 5 system at all. For a 3-rail kick line, I sight off the mirror image of the ghost ball required hit across the width of the table, and look through the 2nd diamond to a spot on the wall aim point, backing that up as required. I learned that from a Jimmy Reid tape.
This is counterintuitive. If cross-table speed is increased compared to lengthwise speed ("faster"), that must make the rebound steeper ("shorter").
pj
chgo
There are so many variables in banking and kicking on a pool table it's a joke to think there's an exact system to banking balls. Cloth type, cloth conditions, cloth tightness, humidity absorbed by the cloth, types of cushions, cushion compound, position the cushion is mounted on the rails, rail thickness effects, rail bolts, rail bolt anchors, rail construction material, balls, English on the cue ball and so on and so on. But, the single biggest effect on banks as to making a bank shot, or missing....rests solely on the shooter, bottom line!
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I don't think you mentioned how tightly or 'consistently the the cloth is pulled & 'mounted' onto the rails.
I've seen relatively new tables that on their second or third recover have had different points on the same rail bank differently & when I checked the cloth was a bit less tight in certain areas.
There was a table at Buffalo's that had the A/C vent near it & blow across it & one long rail banked completely different than the opposite long rail.:wink:
The two 'new' Diamond tables at Ferrell's place drives me nuts. The older redone one seems fine to me.
This OP makes me laugh. The Diamond I just got banks like it should...awesome! I am using the same "system" I always have. Every table will vary a little, make the adjustment and fire away!
this has become a running joke now while banking here..."Diamond systems dont work on Diamond tables!"
this has become a running joke now while banking here..."Diamond systems dont work on Diamond tables!"
Yah, how about his "Only Kicks" video? Almost NONE of Grady's kicking paths work on Diamond tables. I guess I'll just "make an adjustment" and relearn ALL the kicking paths. What a ridiculous solution. Just make a table that doesn't make me change my entire game to play on. I play ONLY on Diamond tables btw, and I play about 40 hours per week, everything is shorter and almost none of the systems I took the time to learn work without heavy modification. Sure I can start over and adjust everything, and have...but no one else thinks that sucks? I like Diamond tables for all the obvious reasons, but this is a major con.
Incidentally, this is the same BS argument Kamui makes with their tips. Their sales rep literally said to me "well you just have to use less english and hit the ball differently to adjust for the tip". Holy crap man, are you effin' kidding me?
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How new is the table/cloth? I had the same experience with my modified rails until the cloth broke in, and then it was noticeable. Adjustments needed for sure. I was told that tournament diamond tables from factory play different from day 1 to Day 4, not just in pocket behavior, but in rail/banking conditions as well.
What makes it worse it it sounds like you play on an older Diamond table with the shorter rails, try the newer ones w/blue label rails, they play longer.
My reference to Grady's system was for the 3 railers that I thought were in the original post. You simply find where to hit to get to the corner with running english and use his adjustments from there, not that many changes except for the return track off the 3rd rail. I thought they had value and I am very well versed in the corner 5 system from playing 3-cushion.
But as others have said, even if all tables played the same, the condition changes that would make adjustments necessary anyway (new cloth; old cloth; clean balls; dirty balls; humidity; etc.). You should test a table for current conditions before playing a match. This is stuff that I enjoy about pool.
Dave
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Well, I am not sure what the cause of your problem is. I had a Diamond Professional and later a Diamond ProAm in my living room for years. I also went to visit Grady at his home regularly for two and a half years to learn his kicking systems on his own Diamond ProAm in his garage. I walked through the door with his Only Kicks video and told him I wanted him to teach me everything about all the kicks on that video. Every one of the things he talks about works just fine on Diamond or Gold Crown equipment. In fact, during that time I was seeing him, I was declared quite loudly to be the luckiest kick shot player ever in central Florida. I do not believe you have come to realize just how accurate those diamonds on the rails are.
Diamond rails play closer to billiard table rails than Gold Crown rails do, in my opinion. Heavy modification of you approach is not necessary. Only a small adjustment to your stroke will take care of any problems you are having. The first thing you have to see is that they have four sharp points on them. Which one of those you aim at or how you aim in between them makes a difference. Yes, those diamonds are that accurate. If you aim through the top point or the bottom point makes a difference.
I have not read the whole thread, but as a 3 cushion player, I'd say that the Diamond system, assuming you are speaking of the corner 5 system, is a great system. No matter if you are talking about a Diamond, a Gold Crown, a Gabriel, and Verhoven, or whatever, you ALWAYS need to calibrate before play. Use the system to find where the corner is on a table new to you. Adjust tracks as needed from there...In the end though, a system is only as good as your stroke is consistent. Spin, speed and actual contact point are fairly key factors in changing where you end up...