Diamonizing a Gold Crown 3, you get what you pay for!
- Thread starter realkingcobra
- Start date
Not an ad folks I promise you
I've sent a message to neil to give him the straight scoop on the work done at the sands, it quite frankly is a matter that doesnt need to be debated in public.
I assure yout his was no ad, I dont need to place any ad on here for statewide. They have been good to me and the tournaments I run, Ive seen their work and seen the messes theyve had to fix and done so with just breaking even because they couldnt stand to see it done poorly but the owner couldnt afford to pay extra. Breaking even on jobs is done from time to time because of their committment to what they do.
The tables at the sands were done for a friend, the owner, and for reasons not to be stated here, had limits. Statewide couldnt take on the high loss it wouldve been to refurbish each table so they did what they could that was within a budget and did more than that actually and did alot for free. They couldve turned the job down and almost did but, it was for a friend, they felt obligated. They definately dont deserve bad words spread about their work. Their known by alot of people for detailed work so neil is one of the exceptions. These boys work hard to get things done right...they guarantee their work and have yet to have anyone come back to them asking for it to be redone or their money back. Theyre some of the hardest working and most honest people ive ever met. It truly saddens me that Neil chooses to talk about them in this manner rather than address what the real issue is.
I wont get into more of a debate on the forums, its not the place for it.
I apologize for the highjacking of the thread about rkc's table work, it truly is a level of work to be in aw over! I can only hope that others try to do half the job he does! So back to RKC.....wonderful work sir! You deserve much praise for what you do! Definately one of the best there is if not the best!
I've sent a message to neil to give him the straight scoop on the work done at the sands, it quite frankly is a matter that doesnt need to be debated in public.
I assure yout his was no ad, I dont need to place any ad on here for statewide. They have been good to me and the tournaments I run, Ive seen their work and seen the messes theyve had to fix and done so with just breaking even because they couldnt stand to see it done poorly but the owner couldnt afford to pay extra. Breaking even on jobs is done from time to time because of their committment to what they do.
The tables at the sands were done for a friend, the owner, and for reasons not to be stated here, had limits. Statewide couldnt take on the high loss it wouldve been to refurbish each table so they did what they could that was within a budget and did more than that actually and did alot for free. They couldve turned the job down and almost did but, it was for a friend, they felt obligated. They definately dont deserve bad words spread about their work. Their known by alot of people for detailed work so neil is one of the exceptions. These boys work hard to get things done right...they guarantee their work and have yet to have anyone come back to them asking for it to be redone or their money back. Theyre some of the hardest working and most honest people ive ever met. It truly saddens me that Neil chooses to talk about them in this manner rather than address what the real issue is.
I wont get into more of a debate on the forums, its not the place for it.
I apologize for the highjacking of the thread about rkc's table work, it truly is a level of work to be in aw over! I can only hope that others try to do half the job he does! So back to RKC.....wonderful work sir! You deserve much praise for what you do! Definately one of the best there is if not the best!
Glued down my bed cloth
Most tables I've seen and played on have the cloth stretched not glued. What are the pro's and con's of each method?
What kind of glue or brand name if you don't mind mentioning it do you use for the bed cloth?
Is it a lite bond glue so as not to make future removal to difficult?
Some people are defined as a professional because they make a living doing something. Others are professional due
to the the quality and care of their work.
You Sir, are firmly at the top of the latter. Great work.
Most tables I've seen and played on have the cloth stretched not glued. What are the pro's and con's of each method?
What kind of glue or brand name if you don't mind mentioning it do you use for the bed cloth?
Is it a lite bond glue so as not to make future removal to difficult?
Some people are defined as a professional because they make a living doing something. Others are professional due
to the the quality and care of their work.
You Sir, are firmly at the top of the latter. Great work.
My gluing system is far better than any stapling to install the bed cloths, or I'd have never influenced a factory (Diamond) to redesign all their tables in order to glue down the bed cloths instead of stapling them:grin:
And you're right, most tables have the bed cloth stapled on...except by those who have had the chance to work with me and learn my system:grin:
Glen
One thing RKC didn't mention in his reply to your question about future removal is that the cloth is NOT glued to the playing surface at all, just to the sides. So removal should not be a problem at all. :wink: At least that's how Donny Wessel (SD Billiards) installed my cloth. I'm pretty sure RKC pioneered this method.
Glen stretching cloth after glue was applied under the rails and on the edge of the slate. Now THAT is TIGHT cloth. :groucho:
(6 years and 5,921 post later Jim learns to post a picture)
No glue under the rails, just on the thickness of the slate and on the cloth, but I know what you mean Jim:grin:
Glen's gluing system is the way foward-period! It is by far the best method of attaching a cloth to a table. Its simple, so simple and obvious that when you see it doner you wonder why everyone dosent do it. I have had many tables in my houses over the past 20 years and seen alot of guys working on tables at pool rooms etc. Glen's glueing system it the best way.
There needs to be more people doing quality work out there, There are a few but not enough. Especially for bar boxes and home installations. Those areas of the trade are suffering the worst. In this shit economy a good table fitter like Glen would have more work that he could take on-like Glen has, thats how much demand there is for the well trained guys. It aint rocket science, but for what ever reason there is a huge shortage of top mechnics.
Glen, I called you and asked if you could repair a table for me over a year ago... You've been posting all these bad ass pics and now you're too busy!!! I'm super jealous of anyone who has had their table done by you. Unbelievable, really.
Table cloth
One thing to note..RKC doesn't just stretch the living crap out of the cloth. He stretches it the amount he has found, through his experience, to be optimal.
One thing to note..RKC doesn't just stretch the living crap out of the cloth. He stretches it the amount he has found, through his experience, to be optimal.
Removing the cloth glued on by Donny won't be a problem.
FWIW - Glue has always been used on unbacked slate (i.e. bar boxes) and staples/tacks on backed slate.
Why? Because that's the way most learned to do tables.
RKC uses a better glue (3M-10) and a different (better) method to layout, stretch and apply the cloth.
Been doing it his way since he first started sharing his methods here and find glue preferable to staples on backed slate.
Donny and a lot of others here are also doing it his way.
What he is pioneering is getting mechanics to do a better quality job and not just slapping on cloth to collect a check
without checking and offering to fix problems that may affect the play of the table. Of course many wouldn't have a clue of
what to check or how to make a fix. Re-educating the trade won't be easy but that's the road RKC is on IMO.
I don't exactly agree with the term "Diamonizing" since it takes away from the expertise and quality of work done by RKC.
Even a Diamond will play off if not setup correctly. "Cobratizing" might be a more appropriate term.
Right, and even if it was it would be his problem since he's the one that would be doing the re-cover. :wink::grin-square:
The glue only needs to be scraped of, which takes less than 2 minutes, about every 4-6 recoveries. :grin:
One of these days, I'll be at your house working on your table, maybe in about "two weeks":grin::grin::grin: two weeks from I don't know when should about do it:grin:
long point - there is more, but for now i hope this is enough...
i have a RKC story; i’m sorry i didn’t post this a year+ earlier as i should have, but being such a long story i was reticent: but…
Once Upon a Time…
i was not a pool player but had the room for a table. i only knew of brunswick so i went to the local brunswick dealer, got some info – then went to a few other stores selling various other brands, and finally decided that I would get a brunswick… again, i was not a pool player and i never even heard of a diamond table.
soon after a few guys came to our home and were setting up our new table. they were telling me "THEY" were the best installers it the universe and what a great table i bought!! i kinda felt proud at hearing all of this. this was maybe in 2000.
i used the table only about 4 or 5 times a year, sometimes when guests were here i could ask them if they wanted to play pool. i was only home about 5 months a year. but in a bar that i frequented very close to our home i would play and almost always win there on a 7 footer, i just was not the same on our 9 footer. then, about july 2007 i played a guy at the bar who just simply played like a pro; at least to me. and then i finally saw how this game could "really be played" - the first time for me.
my table seemed somewhat strange to me. ball shifts at the 3 piece slate intersections. from the foot end shooting into the opposite right corner pocket, the ob would shift. the table just seemed quirky. i was too ignorant to know what was happening, least of all to know why.
a month later i tried to join AZB, but it took months till i was given my acceptance to AZB. i love to read and learn. so for months i was just a lurker. and i really learned a lot from all of you.
i found someone here [las vegas that is] to teach me a little, and i was later invited into an 8-ball bca league. my first time playing on a diamond bar box. and that table played like a Stradivarius compared to my 9' brunswick piece of crap.
i realized i had buckets for pockets, ball moves that were not normal for a level table. cloth that felt like a thick sweater, nothing like simonis. i was heartbroken. i spent good money that was hard to make only to be swindled by a name company due to lack of knowledge on my part.
i read some info about RKC on AZB. plus, i wanted to get better for my league team players so we could be better. i felt helpless. i contacted RKC. i was lucky. RKC is in and out of vegas often [at least was]. i am nobody in pool, but he had a holdover here and said he would come and do my table; extend the rails and install new cloth.
what he didn't know was my table. maybe he guessed to some extent, but he never said a word. and when i first met him, i liked him immediately. he took apart my table and all i could do was watch him - and watching him was a pleasure for me. and talking to him was also a pleasure for me. he was just a really great guy. and it was so easy for me to see [i work with very exact tolerances in molds and such] how exacting he is. he extended my rails and had the most complete set of tools in his ['pos'] truck [that took hours to start] that you could imagine.
my 5"+ and 5.5"+ pockets were going to be 4.5" and 5"'s. and seeing his beautiful way of working i was a happy boy. but now he brought my table down to base wood to get everything as 'base level' as possible. Uh Oh - you'll never guess this - my long side of the table were bowed out at least 2.5 to 3 inches. I paid $1,000 extra to brunswick for a fully dovetailed frame. the reason for the extra money was to make this impossible. it was a joke; pitiful. and i owned it. i was really pissed. money at that time was good, but i don't piss on it [never did and never will]. i would never mind giving the money for the needy. but this was just a joke. i have a pic i will see if i can find and post it later. but trust me, it was beyond belief.
RKC went to home depot and bought turnbuckles and covered heavy gauge wire and aligned the long sides perfectly.
next...
it was slate time...
ho, ho, ho...
guess what???
i had 3 pieces of slate from brunswick that were "ALL" crowned = that means that the slate had a high point in the center of each slate - an almost impossible thing to correct. maybe it could be made to play more correctly, but it would not really ever be a good table. RKC was shocked - he said he had never seen this in more than 25 years! i wanted to cut some balls off brunswick's board of directors. being the 'a-h' i am, i looked up [goggled] brunswick to speak to the pres. all i could get was a number that was a recording. i really got pissed.
i called brunswick's main corp. number and said i was a stockholder and i demanded the direct number for the Pres of Brunswick Billiards. they gave it to me immediately. sawn cummings. good.
i called him. got directly to him. i told him a longer story than i have posted here [really - this is the short version]. the complete works and the crap his company sold me. and not to be believed and as credit to sean, he offered to replace my table.
i didn't want that. RKC already fixed the wood base in a way never to be a problem again. i just wanted them to replace my slates. and again to sean's credit he had that done. but here i must mention: i gave sean the basics and he wanted his supplier here to do it and i said NO! i want glen [RKC] to do it. he asked why i was so insistent, and it was an easy answer - "your fools already showed me the quality of your work". i do not need another example. to simplify i told him i would have RKC call him.
RKC did and they immediately sent new slates.
and just a note for anybody that would ever doubt RKC, sean already new of RKC's reputation and expertise.
by now, i know you all know the final result. i have a great table.
and the only thing i can add is this: we all travel many roads in life. some for the better and some not. but i feel lucky...
i greatly respect RKC. not only because he made my table great but more... he is an inspirational person. i really mean that. i can not say that about many folks i know. RKC has an uncompromising work ethic. RKC is a genius. it was a great pleasure to watch him work.
end of part of the story,
smokey
i have a RKC story; i’m sorry i didn’t post this a year+ earlier as i should have, but being such a long story i was reticent: but…
Once Upon a Time…
i was not a pool player but had the room for a table. i only knew of brunswick so i went to the local brunswick dealer, got some info – then went to a few other stores selling various other brands, and finally decided that I would get a brunswick… again, i was not a pool player and i never even heard of a diamond table.
soon after a few guys came to our home and were setting up our new table. they were telling me "THEY" were the best installers it the universe and what a great table i bought!! i kinda felt proud at hearing all of this. this was maybe in 2000.
i used the table only about 4 or 5 times a year, sometimes when guests were here i could ask them if they wanted to play pool. i was only home about 5 months a year. but in a bar that i frequented very close to our home i would play and almost always win there on a 7 footer, i just was not the same on our 9 footer. then, about july 2007 i played a guy at the bar who just simply played like a pro; at least to me. and then i finally saw how this game could "really be played" - the first time for me.
my table seemed somewhat strange to me. ball shifts at the 3 piece slate intersections. from the foot end shooting into the opposite right corner pocket, the ob would shift. the table just seemed quirky. i was too ignorant to know what was happening, least of all to know why.
a month later i tried to join AZB, but it took months till i was given my acceptance to AZB. i love to read and learn. so for months i was just a lurker. and i really learned a lot from all of you.
i found someone here [las vegas that is] to teach me a little, and i was later invited into an 8-ball bca league. my first time playing on a diamond bar box. and that table played like a Stradivarius compared to my 9' brunswick piece of crap.
i realized i had buckets for pockets, ball moves that were not normal for a level table. cloth that felt like a thick sweater, nothing like simonis. i was heartbroken. i spent good money that was hard to make only to be swindled by a name company due to lack of knowledge on my part.
i read some info about RKC on AZB. plus, i wanted to get better for my league team players so we could be better. i felt helpless. i contacted RKC. i was lucky. RKC is in and out of vegas often [at least was]. i am nobody in pool, but he had a holdover here and said he would come and do my table; extend the rails and install new cloth.
what he didn't know was my table. maybe he guessed to some extent, but he never said a word. and when i first met him, i liked him immediately. he took apart my table and all i could do was watch him - and watching him was a pleasure for me. and talking to him was also a pleasure for me. he was just a really great guy. and it was so easy for me to see [i work with very exact tolerances in molds and such] how exacting he is. he extended my rails and had the most complete set of tools in his ['pos'] truck [that took hours to start] that you could imagine.
my 5"+ and 5.5"+ pockets were going to be 4.5" and 5"'s. and seeing his beautiful way of working i was a happy boy. but now he brought my table down to base wood to get everything as 'base level' as possible. Uh Oh - you'll never guess this - my long side of the table were bowed out at least 2.5 to 3 inches. I paid $1,000 extra to brunswick for a fully dovetailed frame. the reason for the extra money was to make this impossible. it was a joke; pitiful. and i owned it. i was really pissed. money at that time was good, but i don't piss on it [never did and never will]. i would never mind giving the money for the needy. but this was just a joke. i have a pic i will see if i can find and post it later. but trust me, it was beyond belief.
RKC went to home depot and bought turnbuckles and covered heavy gauge wire and aligned the long sides perfectly.
next...
it was slate time...
ho, ho, ho...
guess what???
i had 3 pieces of slate from brunswick that were "ALL" crowned = that means that the slate had a high point in the center of each slate - an almost impossible thing to correct. maybe it could be made to play more correctly, but it would not really ever be a good table. RKC was shocked - he said he had never seen this in more than 25 years! i wanted to cut some balls off brunswick's board of directors. being the 'a-h' i am, i looked up [goggled] brunswick to speak to the pres. all i could get was a number that was a recording. i really got pissed.
i called brunswick's main corp. number and said i was a stockholder and i demanded the direct number for the Pres of Brunswick Billiards. they gave it to me immediately. sawn cummings. good.
i called him. got directly to him. i told him a longer story than i have posted here [really - this is the short version]. the complete works and the crap his company sold me. and not to be believed and as credit to sean, he offered to replace my table.
i didn't want that. RKC already fixed the wood base in a way never to be a problem again. i just wanted them to replace my slates. and again to sean's credit he had that done. but here i must mention: i gave sean the basics and he wanted his supplier here to do it and i said NO! i want glen [RKC] to do it. he asked why i was so insistent, and it was an easy answer - "your fools already showed me the quality of your work". i do not need another example. to simplify i told him i would have RKC call him.
RKC did and they immediately sent new slates.
and just a note for anybody that would ever doubt RKC, sean already new of RKC's reputation and expertise.
by now, i know you all know the final result. i have a great table.
and the only thing i can add is this: we all travel many roads in life. some for the better and some not. but i feel lucky...
i greatly respect RKC. not only because he made my table great but more... he is an inspirational person. i really mean that. i can not say that about many folks i know. RKC has an uncompromising work ethic. RKC is a genius. it was a great pleasure to watch him work.
end of part of the story,
smokey
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What can I say about your work that isn't already posted here. I think IT SUCKS hasn't been posted yet, we all know why.
On Smokey's table, the cross member is suppose to tie the sides of the table together tight, so as to maintain a straight body for the slates to sit on. What had happened was that the fit of the cross member was so bad, the body of the table was 3/4" wider in the middle than at the ends, so the slates on the frame sagged in the middle...a lot! So, I had to incorporate a fix that would work, and last. So I installed a turn buckle system that when tightened would pull the outer frame of the sides of the table together. You can see what I did in the pictures.
OMG, I can handcut a dovetail better then that.
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