Did 7, 8 and 9-Ball kill the prestige pool once had?

POVPOOL

POVPOOL

POV Pool
Silver Member
I've been thinking about this lately and I'm wondering what your opinions might be on the subject...

Did 7, 8 and 9-Ball kill the prestige pool once had?

Now, first of all, I'm no historian on the game by any means and I would welcome any references to some good reading material on this subject. I know that in the 50's and 60's, when it came to 'pocket billiards' for competition in America the primary game that was focused on was 14.1 (Straight Pool). Now I'm not sure how cohesive the or organized the sport was back then either - For all I know the word 'professional pool player' has always been a joke to the rest of the sports world since time immemorial. But what I do know is that the most prestigious players of our time, not including some special ones of today like Efren, Shane, Earl, Archer... the most prestigious players were generally 14.1 players.

However, something totally unrelated happened recently that got me thinking why there is so little prestige to professional pool in this day and age...

On a totally unrelated yet important note: Ronnie O'Sullivan recently scoffed at a maximum break in Snooker, which has caused quite a ruckus in sports news as of late. Instead of choosing the coveted black ball to maximize his break on the road to a 147, he chose the pink ball and diminished his score to a 146.

Although this is not the main focus of my theory, I would like to point out that, this event had me thinking about how Snooker players are by far, some of the most technical and tactical players of cue-sports that I have ever enjoyed. Then I started to realize, the reason that these guys are so highly regarded without any dispute is that, there is a standard to the game of snooker that is like no other. And like 14.1 snooker consists of very long visits to the table that are always continued with a consistent rack and ball setup. Actually, now that I think of it, 3 cushion is pretty standardized as well...

"Why..." - You ask, "...does this have anything to do with 9 Ball killing the prestige of American Pocket Billiards?"

My reasoning is this... 14.1 players and Snooker players can be very easily matched with one another because both games consist of high runs, long innings at the table and very intricate safety play. When pocket billiards was developing in the U.S., 14.1 was the only real professional game on the table. Everything else was considered a parlor game or wagering game and we didn't really start seeing 9 ball played competitively until the mid 60's and 70's. Hell, I'm not 100% sure but I don't even think 8 Ball made a big splash in the media until the late 60's and early 70's when Minnesota Fats came around.

My basic theory is that, by searching for that perfect spectacle of pocket billiards by the sports media in the 60's and 70's, we completely forgot about how perfect 14.1 already was. When games like 7, 8 and 9 ball came to TV, it turned the tide of pool forever. Of course, I enjoy these games and I'm not saying that we shouldn't still embrace them, but I'd still like to point out a few more reasons why 14.1 really is the perfect game for the best players in the world.

Take any 9 ball competition today and what do you see... Different Rules! Why? Because promoters and players have been advocating different rules which are supposed to make the game either fair, or speed up the events to finish in time.

  • Winner Racks / Loser Racks
  • Winner Breaks / Loser Breaks
  • Alternate Breaks
  • Magic Rack only
  • No 9 Ball in Bottom 2 pockets
  • Break from the 'Box' / Don't break from the 'Box'
  • Rack the 9 on the spot / Rack the 1 on the spot
  • Phenolic / No Phenolic
    4 1/4" Pockets / 3 7/8" pockets

How many times have you heard a commentator say, "Well Bob, I think It's going to come down to the break in this match!" or "Ya know Pat, I think with the 9 on the spot and the cut-break on this table, the Europeans are putting on a clinic in this match!"

Folks, we are talking about the f***ing break that basically determines the outcome of a whole match. I mean WTF is going on here, that we have been so bloody stupid to have completely forgotten that the real pool players that should never be forgotten are the ones that could run 125 balls in one inning?

Why? Because the break shouldn't determine who wins. It takes an absolute technician with ultimate knowledge of the game to be able to run over 100 balls and stay at the table to win. And, best of all, the audiences admire this more than watching a dude pattern rack 9 ball for an hour in order to maintain control of the table. This is why snooker still rules all in this world. This is also why 3 cushion billiards also reigns supreme. Because the rules don't change and it's totally based on skill.

I know that some of you can argue that there are just some players who outclass everyone else playing 9 ball or 10 ball but, even between those guys, it always comes down to something trivial like the break or the way the balls are racked or where they have to break from...Blablabla

I'm seriously beginning to believe that, if we had stuck with 14.1 as the standard game for professional pool and left all the other games for amateurs only, American Pool may have not had the hard times that its had to face in the last 30 years.

Your thoughts...?
 
I just last night made a comparison of golf to pool & the word that came up regarding golf was tradition.

Tradition suggests honor & respect.

The Brits Respect & Honor their game of snooker with Tradition.

IMO, the BCA which is a trade organization that was also the governing body (a conflict of interest) allowed the game, or sport, to be raped & the result was the bastardization of the game.

Harsh words? Perhaps.

But... basically I agree with you.

We now have bar box championships on small tables & that's fine...

but not to the exclusion of the prestige of a straight pool Championship match to 500 points on a 10 or 9 foot table.

So, Yes, I basically agree with you.

That said I like 8 ball.

I even have an idea to cross it with a race to a set number of points, but I am not throwing that out on here.

The Professional Game of Pocket Billiards is gasping for air & is in desperate need of a resuscitator. And that will probably only come in the form of a super wealthy individual that would want to restore the game to where it should be with no thought of making any sort of profit in his or her lifetime.

I hope it happens & I wish it would happen so that I could see it form this worldly venue, but I would take any bets on that happening.
 
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I think you're right about the most of what you wrote. 8-ball became big in 1960 because of the bar boxes that were put in a big % of the bars. 9-ball has been around and gambled on for as long as I can remember (65+ years). I cut my teeth on 14.1, 15 ball rotation, and 3 cushion billiards, starting in 1950. We use to bet on those 3 games until after COM came out. Then most of the gambling dried up on the above 3 games. All the gambling went to 9 ball, as did I. 9-ball exploded after COM and 14.1 died. Johnnyt
 
One Pocket

From all of the signs that I see One Pocket is stepping up as the game of choice of better players and many younger players are taking interest in the game. When a game incorporates skill and moves like Chess what is not to love?

 
Johnnyt said:
I think you're right about the most of what you wrote. 8-ball became big in 1960 because of the bar boxes that were put in a big % of the bars. 9-ball has been around and gambled on for as long as I can remember (65+ years). I cut my teeth on 14.1, 15 ball rotation, and 3 cushion billiards, starting in 1950. We use to bet on those 3 games until after COM came out. Then most of the gambling dried up on the above 3 games. All the gambling went to 9 ball, as did I. 9-ball exploded after COM and 14.1 died. Johnnyt
Click to expand...


With all due respect TCOM didn't come out until the mid late 80's and 14.1 had been dead & 9 ball thriving since the early 70's when $100 9 ball was common, much more so than today.

Now the entire industry picked up after TCOM BUT 9 ball was well entrenched before that.
 
9 ball didn't kill it. 9 ball saved it for a good number of years. Television killed it.

I hate to say this because I love my country, but Americans have no attention span. Even if they do, it's not cool to do anything intellectual anymore. 14.1 is WAY too intellectual...may as well be watching a chess match. Incidentally, chess is making a huge comeback, thanks in no small part to one rich guy that doesn't care about turning a profit. Rex Sinquefield has single handedly revitalized the game in the US. If he was into pool, I think we'd be in pretty good shape.
 
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Pool today has become a f-ing joke! Professionals playing on BAR TABLES! It's a damned disgrace! I can't think of any other sport or game that is so ****ed up that you have professionals playing on equipment that were made to make it easier for amateurs...The prestige of the game has been ruined by greed and idiots with ADD. It has now become a game designed by committee: Not challenging for the pros, not entertaining for the masses. The trade people wanted smaller and lower tables to save on materials and space. Now you ruin your back playing the game, 90% of the top players are basically midgets and the game is a joke to everyone. Good going.

Straight pool on 10-foot tables, that was the real game, a game for people that can actually play. In the 9 ball WPC it's basically down to one or two breaks who will win. There are at least 20 people at any given time that are capable of winning it. Move the game over to a 10 footer and play straight pool, with slower cloth (not a shag carpet, but a bit slower than today) and see if that is still the case..On the slower cloth, and with a larger table, straight pool becomes a very technical game, like snooker. You need good angles to go into the stack and to break balls up, you need to always have a "safety" ball and you need shotmaking as well, but shotmaking alone will not save you. We would once again see the best rise to the top, and you'd need actual knowledge as well as shotmaking.

Basically the whole of 8,9 and 10 ball is a breaking contest. 9 ball for a professional with a good break is basically a given run out, 8 ball still more so. The only reason why 10 ball even exists is to make breaking tougher. Sure, these games may be fun for playing with friends, but professionals!? I think not.
 
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Professional or Amateur

Straightpool_99 said:
Basically the whole of 8,9 and 10 ball is a breaking contest. 9 ball for a professional with a good break is basically a given run out, 8 ball still more so. The only reason why 10 ball even exists is to make breaking tougher. Sure, these games may be fun for playing with friends, but professionals!? I think not.
Click to expand...

Its about the same with Amateurs. If someone leaves you a shot in 9 ball youre supposed to get out provided the balls are free. The open table makes safties harder to get for amateurs so everyone is learning to pot. I guess that's good and bad, excellence in pool is making the quest for a better game somewhat of a problem.
 
Pool never had prestige - when Brunswick promoted it - they spent lots of money trying to pretend
the game was respectable - but the general public never bought the idea.

At best, the "pro" players in tuxedos were thought to be exceptions.

Dale
 
The fact that 9Ball, as it mostly is shown today, is boring is just one more reason that pool needs a vocal crowd.

Let me explain.

What makes a sport exciting is when the viewer can identify the obstacles that the player is facing and is able to see the player succeed or fail when faced with that obstacle. 9ball today is played by incredibly tapented players who play the game so well that it looks as though there are no onstacles. Boring! Even when the players make a mistake they show no emotion for the most part and there is no crowd to react.

Think about the one truly exciting event that we have that is capable of bringing excitement to a non pool enthusiast. It is the mosconi cup. Why? Short races... which creates a pressure that even non pool players can recognize as an obstacle. It is important to win... which also creates that pressure. Plus, a vocal crowd... which once again creates that pressure, but more importantly is that they are reacting when a player gets out of line and this lets the unknowledgeable crowd say "uh oh, whats up? I need to watch this." The obstacle is noticed as the commentator explains the situation. The pressure is more clear to the audience. Basically the crowd makes it a much more viewer friendly game.

When there is no cheering audience even a high pressure match loses the fans that are not as knowledgable as to what is going on. They just see a player who reamains calm, run out most of the time and even the rare mistake doesnt really mean much to the viewer.
 
POVPOOL said:
I've been thinking about this lately and I'm wondering what your opinions might be on the subject...

Did 7, 8 and 9-Ball kill the prestige pool once had?
Click to expand...

Pool was killed by television, the Internet and video games. It's had a couple of revivals with the two Newman movies, but it's been dying a slow death over the past 60 years.

When I was a kid, we had a table in our basement and all of the neighborhood kids played. Now my own kids don't even play and we have a Diamond Pro in the basement. When adults come to our house, it is very rare that any of them are even willing to give it a try.

It's all very sad.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Pool today has become a f-ing joke! Professionals playing on BAR TABLES! It's a damned disgrace! I can't think of any other sport or game that is so ****ed up that you have professionals playing on equipment that were made to make it easier for amateurs...The prestige of the game has been ruined by greed and idiots with ADD. It has now become a game designed by committee: Not challenging for the pros, not entertaining for the masses. The trade people wanted smaller and lower tables to save on materials and space. Now you ruin your back playing the game, 90% of the top players are basically midgets and the game is a joke to everyone. Good going.

Straight pool on 10-foot tables, that was the real game, a game for people that can actually play. In the 9 ball WPC it's basically down to one or two breaks who will win. There are at least 20 people at any given time that are capable of winning it. Move the game over to a 10 footer and play straight pool, with slower cloth (not a shag carpet, but a bit slower than today) and see if that is still the case..On the slower cloth, and with a larger table, straight pool becomes a very technical game, like snooker. You need good angles to go into the stack and to break balls up, you need to always have a "safety" ball and you need shotmaking as well, but shotmaking alone will not save you. We would once again see the best rise to the top, and you'd need actual knowledge as well as shotmaking.

Basically the whole of 8,9 and 10 ball is a breaking contest. 9 ball for a professional with a good break is basically a given run out, 8 ball still more so. The only reason why 10 ball even exists is to make breaking tougher. Sure, these games may be fun for playing with friends, but professionals!? I think not.
Click to expand...


i agree with all of this sir!
 
You make a good point

336Robin said:
From all of the signs that I see One Pocket is stepping up as the game of choice of better players and many younger players are taking interest in the game. When a game incorporates skill and moves like Chess what is not to love?
Click to expand...

If One Pocket isn't it, how can Straight Pool do it? Straight Pool is slower and doesn't allow both players a chance to participate when big runs take place.

One Pocket is being played in every Pool hall in every city by every level of player.

Will One Pocket ever be as popular as Straight Pool, maybe not, but its only because it will never be on television "The Wide World of Sports" and even if ESPN picked it up there are to many things to compete with Pool that weren't there in the 60's and 70's.
 
POVPOOL said:
I've been thinking about this lately and I'm wondering what your opinions might be on the subject...

Did 7, 8 and 9-Ball kill the prestige pool once had?

Now, first of all, I'm no historian on the game by any means and I would welcome any references to some good reading material on this subject. I know that in the 50's and 60's, when it came to 'pocket billiards' for competition in America the primary game that was focused on was 14.1 (Straight Pool). Now I'm not sure how cohesive the or organized the sport was back then either - For all I know the word 'professional pool player' has always been a joke to the rest of the sports world since time immemorial. But what I do know is that the most prestigious players of our time, not including some special ones of today like Efren, Shane, Earl, Archer... the most prestigious players were generally 14.1 players.

However, something totally unrelated happened recently that got me thinking why there is so little prestige to professional pool in this day and age...

On a totally unrelated yet important note: Ronnie O'Sullivan recently scoffed at a maximum break in Snooker, which has caused quite a ruckus in sports news as of late. Instead of choosing the coveted black ball to maximize his break on the road to a 147, he chose the pink ball and diminished his score to a 146.

Although this is not the main focus of my theory, I would like to point out that, this event had me thinking about how Snooker players are by far, some of the most technical and tactical players of cue-sports that I have ever enjoyed. Then I started to realize, the reason that these guys are so highly regarded without any dispute is that, there is a standard to the game of snooker that is like no other. And like 14.1 snooker consists of very long visits to the table that are always continued with a consistent rack and ball setup. Actually, now that I think of it, 3 cushion is pretty standardized as well...

"Why..." - You ask, "...does this have anything to do with 9 Ball killing the prestige of American Pocket Billiards?"

My reasoning is this... 14.1 players and Snooker players can be very easily matched with one another because both games consist of high runs, long innings at the table and very intricate safety play. When pocket billiards was developing in the U.S., 14.1 was the only real professional game on the table. Everything else was considered a parlor game or wagering game and we didn't really start seeing 9 ball played competitively until the mid 60's and 70's. Hell, I'm not 100% sure but I don't even think 8 Ball made a big splash in the media until the late 60's and early 70's when Minnesota Fats came around.

My basic theory is that, by searching for that perfect spectacle of pocket billiards by the sports media in the 60's and 70's, we completely forgot about how perfect 14.1 already was. When games like 7, 8 and 9 ball came to TV, it turned the tide of pool forever. Of course, I enjoy these games and I'm not saying that we shouldn't still embrace them, but I'd still like to point out a few more reasons why 14.1 really is the perfect game for the best players in the world.

Take any 9 ball competition today and what do you see... Different Rules! Why? Because promoters and players have been advocating different rules which are supposed to make the game either fair, or speed up the events to finish in time.

  • Winner Racks / Loser Racks
  • Winner Breaks / Loser Breaks
  • Alternate Breaks
  • Magic Rack only
  • No 9 Ball in Bottom 2 pockets
  • Break from the 'Box' / Don't break from the 'Box'
  • Rack the 9 on the spot / Rack the 1 on the spot
  • Phenolic / No Phenolic
    4 1/4" Pockets / 3 7/8" pockets

How many times have you heard a commentator say, "Well Bob, I think It's going to come down to the break in this match!" or "Ya know Pat, I think with the 9 on the spot and the cut-break on this table, the Europeans are putting on a clinic in this match!"

Folks, we are talking about the f***ing break that basically determines the outcome of a whole match. I mean WTF is going on here, that we have been so bloody stupid to have completely forgotten that the real pool players that should never be forgotten are the ones that could run 125 balls in one inning?

Why? Because the break shouldn't determine who wins. It takes an absolute technician with ultimate knowledge of the game to be able to run over 100 balls and stay at the table to win. And, best of all, the audiences admire this more than watching a dude pattern rack 9 ball for an hour in order to maintain control of the table. This is why snooker still rules all in this world. This is also why 3 cushion billiards also reigns supreme. Because the rules don't change and it's totally based on skill.

I know that some of you can argue that there are just some players who outclass everyone else playing 9 ball or 10 ball but, even between those guys, it always comes down to something trivial like the break or the way the balls are racked or where they have to break from...Blablabla

I'm seriously beginning to believe that, if we had stuck with 14.1 as the standard game for professional pool and left all the other games for amateurs only, American Pool may have not had the hard times that its had to face in the last 30 years.

Your thoughts...?
Click to expand...

I am a fan of straight pool. I think your post has some truth to it. However, I think the article posted in this thread from Billiard Digest does seem to suggest that straight pool, like the other games, becomes uninteresting to people once safety play is involved.

I do hope the sentiment of your post catches on and there are more 14.1 events. I think there is some popular appeal to the "normal" public in seeing someone pocket large numbers of balls in one inning.

kollegedave
 
Some of us actually did stay with 14.1. When I was young, the old timers at the pool hall would scoff at the fact that we all played 8 ball. They would tell us to play a real mans game, which in their minds was 14.1. This was the only game they knew growing up and were trying to convince us that it required all aspects of skill to be successful and win. How right the elders were. I loathe 8 and 9 and 10 and whatever ball. I could care less whether people think these games saved pool? If you want to gamble on a quick 2 minute game in which anything can happen after the break, and don't forget which of the ten million rule variations you're playing, then those games are fine. And remember the winner will ALWAYS be the most skilled one. I'll take playing or watching a marathon game of 14.1 any day of the week. And now people are thinking that one pocket is the true test of all skills. OMG here we go again. Good morning and everyone have a nice day. HappyJack
 
Straight pool is the toughest game there is bar none. As I have said before on this forum a player needs every skill available to play 14.1 at a high level. You need every sort of bridge as there are numerous situations to foul. You must be a master with the rake. You need force follow and a soft touch. You have to know exactly where to hit the stack of balls to move some out and leave whitey free. You need the skill to stay at the table. I could go on and on.
The book "The Champion and the Hustler" is a comparison between Mosconi and Fats. In one segment the author is with Mosconi in Vegas for an exhibition when Mosconi was somewhat older. Mosconi is in a separate room with a pool table and asks the author to rack for him. Mosconi orders coffee and a danish from room service and between bites of the danish the author racks 43 times on a Mosconi run and Mosconi gets tired and quits. You do the math but it's over 600 balls.
 
You miss the point

Straightpool_99 said:
Pool today has become a f-ing joke! Professionals playing on BAR TABLES!

Straight pool on 10-foot tables,

Basically the whole of 8,9 and 10 ball is a breaking contest.
Click to expand...

If you read the stats provided by "AtLarge" on this very site you'll see that the breaker in 9 ball and 10 ball only wins a little over 50% of the time in most contest.

Texas has more Pool halls then any place in the country and there are no 10 foot tables because no one wants to take up that kinda space, most places only have a few 9 footers.

Straight Pool is a good game, but it is a game of the past, few people want to sit and watch a guy run 100 balls with no chance to reply. One Pocket, 9 ball, 8 ball, 10 ball have a much higher participation rate for both competitors and that keeps players, backers and sweaters involved.
 
maplecap said:
Some of us actually did stay with 14.1. When I was young, the old timers at the pool hall would scoff at the fact that we all played 8 ball. They would tell us to play a real mans game, which in their minds was 14.1. This was the only game they knew growing up and were trying to convince us that it required all aspects of skill to be successful and win. How right the elders were. I loathe 8 and 9 and 10 and whatever ball. I could care less whether people think these games saved pool? If you want to gamble on a quick 2 minute game in which anything can happen after the break, and don't forget which of the ten million rule variations you're playing, then those games are fine. And remember the winner will ALWAYS be the most skilled one. I'll take playing or watching a marathon game of 14.1 any day of the week. And now people are thinking that one pocket is the true test of all skills. OMG here we go again. Good morning and everyone have a nice day. HappyJack
Click to expand...

Pretty much no one played 14.1 when I was growing up. It was all 9 ball for the serious guys, and 8 ball for the bars and playing with your girlfriend. I always liked 14.1 but never played because no one else did.

Now I play mostly 14.1. I do still occasionally play 8 ball and 9 ball when someone asks, and I've found that they feel much easier than I remember! 14.1 is kicking my butt and actually teaching me how to shoot with a little finesse for the first time.

I play in a little informal 14.1 league, and at 42 years old, I think I'm the youngest by a mile. A lot of the 9/8 ball guys I know have this idea that 14.1 is easy...shoot at anything you want. They really don't get how much more difficult it is to run 14 balls with precision, break up clusters, leave a good break shot, etc. 9 ball is hard, but good shot making can fix a lot of sins. 14.1 is impossibly frustrating without precise play, and great shot making will only get you an extra ball here and there. I wish more guys would at least just give it a try. It would probably help their 9/8/10 ball play too, like it did mine.

That said, I can see how a casual observer would be bored to tears. It looks like some guy just randomly shooting balls. You kind of need to be into it before you can appreciate all of the elegance and strategy, and appreciate what the shooter is doing and trying to accomplish. It's like a casual chess player watching a match between strong players. It just looks like random moves. Oh yippee, he pushed a pawn....yawwwwnnnn. When you're just a little better, you immediately see that just completely shut down your opponent's attack, and opened up your own crushing attack, and that same moving is exciting.
 
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