Did I make a bad call as Tournament Director?

According to this "clarified" version the game is in fact over and Vic won. Of course with some of the "new" rules for Eight Ball the eight would be spotted and Bob gets BIH behind the line. So unless you specify what rules you are playing by we don't know if the match was over or not.

Making the 8 ball early is a loss in every rule set I know of. There is a place near me in RI where they made a rule you can't end the game early on making the 8 by accident but that was due to some dope that has played for years bitching about losing on making the 8 early, when he for sure knew the rule, sine it's one of the most common rules anyone can know, heck bar bangers know that rule LOL. So the TD just said, fine, you shut up and sit down and we'll change the rule for you LOL
 
If the 8 does not go in, then yes in world rules and some leagues it's not a loss if you scratch on the 8. If the 8 is made and you scratch, then it's a loss. Reasoning behind the rule is for bar box 8 ball play where you can't get the pocketed balls in coin op tables, 8 drops, so you either win on it, or lose on it, or pay another buck or two to get it out again LOL
ok that makes sense, we play league on diamonds so not an issue. Anyway, if you scratch on the 8 its pretty much a loss anyway as the other player can usually run it out or hook you.
 
Right or wrong, the person that disturbed the table before the game was officially over is credited with the loss. A dick move I see over and over is somebody giving the last ball to the shooter then towards the end of a tournament set jump up and cry foul when the other player has a tap in on the money ball and just rolls it down table. Often both players have done this for the entire match establishing a pattern, then one takes advantage of it.

Can't argue with replaying the game when neither player explained themselves clearly and no acceptable expert witness was present. It was unfortunate that Mick and Bob are good friends. I had a tight little shot where my vision would be obscured and I couldn't call the hit fairly myself. The TD was nearby so I called them over to make the call. I wasn't surprised the call went against me, I was a stranger playing the TD at the time!

I would have given the game to Bob or had the game replayed, with a witness watching the table if I couldn't be present. As a TD, you need to know you aren't going to bat a thousand. As a player, you know you are going to get some bad calls against you. Either way, got to keep on rolling along.

Hu
 
You used your understanding of each player's version at the time to make a call, and your call was fair based on what you understood at the time. When I am asked to make a call in a he said - she said situation like this, I pull each player aside and individually get their version, summarizing their version at the end for them and asking if they agree with my understanding. Then I pull them together and recap each version (so they can dispute if they want). Then I remind them that my call is going to be viewed as being in favor of one side and against the other, and ask if there's some compromise they want to agree to first. Then I make the call. Had you done it this way, you almost certainly would have realized that both players knew Bob was shooting at the 4, and from your description of Bob he probably would have conceded that he didn't see the 8 fall in out of turn. In any case, you've clarified your understanding with each twice so they can't dispute that understanding the next day.
 
Shouldn't we close this topic now? I solved it via logic. Both players are likely telling the truth.

Sounds like they both saw what they saw.

Why would Vic swipe the balls intentionally if he saw that bob just missed the 4 ball? How could he ever think to get away with it? He had ball in hand with all his balls open, why would he even need to "cheat"? Who would swipe the balls versus running out? Especially in league where you wait around for ever to play.

Why, If Bob did make it to the 8 ball and scratch, and then watch Vic clear the balls as expected, would bob then decide to make up some story about missing the 4 ball not scratching on the 8? How could he think to get away with it?

Logically it makes no sense that either of them is lying. Bob scratched on the 4 ball, and Vic mistook it for the 8 ball because it is
purple and could look black in low light. I assume. Mystery solved.
 
... A dick move I see over and over is somebody giving the last ball to the shooter then towards the end of a tournament set jump up and cry foul when the other player has a tap in on the money ball and just rolls it down table. Often both players have done this for the entire match establishing a pattern, then one takes advantage of it. ...
And that's why around here they use the rule: concede the game ball and you lose that game and the next. I think that's been used for about 30 years. I think that's in some major tournaments now.
 
And that's why around here they use the rule: concede the game ball and you lose that game and the next. I think that's been used for about 30 years. I think that's in some major tournaments now.


That rule is used some around here too. Conceding the ball or even a couple is so common with better players, particularly those that gamble, that it becomes a habit. I usually warn them, once, reminding them that it is a two game penalty.

Since this penalty is far from universal it should be mentioned in the players meeting. Of course a lot of people don't attend that meeting. I like handing out an information sheet to players as they sign in too. Gives them something to sit drinks on or wipe greasy fingers with. Then the players gripe they didn't know these rules were in effect! I always attend competitors meetings. In the rare event I can't, I send a representative that is still green enough to listen.

Hu
 
And that's why around here they use the rule: concede the game ball and you lose that game and the next. I think that's been used for about 30 years. I think that's in some major tournaments now.
So I am playing a very strong player, and heaven forbid, I scratch on the 8. Out of respect for my opponent, I concede because it’s BIH and the 9 is an absolute gimme.

I lose that rack AND the next because I’m showing respect to my opponent?
 
So I am playing a very strong player, and heaven forbid, I scratch on the 8. Out of respect for my opponent, I concede because it’s BIH and the 9 is an absolute gimme.

I lose that rack AND the next because I’m showing respect to my opponent?
If those are the rules, then yes. Only you can decide whether or not you play in any one tournament.
 
So I am playing a very strong player, and heaven forbid, I scratch on the 8. Out of respect for my opponent, I concede because it’s BIH and the 9 is an absolute gimme.

I lose that rack AND the next because I’m showing respect to my opponent?
Late 90s I played in a big tournament at McChesney’s in Denver. I was at the player meeting and it wasn’t mentioned. I hated to concede games. To the point a lot of people were pissed at me.

Anyway, first match I’m playing one of the favorites. Race to 5. He breaks and is running out. Gets a tap in on the 9b and looks at me. I’m self conscious because I never concede a ball and he’s one of the top players…so I concede the 9b. Bam! He says “you can’t concede, I get that game and the next one!”

I was pissed. I felt like a warning would have been fine. Like I said, it wasn’t mentioned at the players meeting and we were playing Texas Express rules - which I guess had been updated to include that.

I know you need to know the rules. Lesson learned.
 
Late 90s I played in a big tournament at McChesney’s in Denver. I was at the player meeting and it wasn’t mentioned. I hated to concede games. To the point a lot of people were pissed at me.

Anyway, first match I’m playing one of the favorites. Race to 5. He breaks and is running out. Gets a tap in on the 9b and looks at me. I’m self conscious because I never concede a ball and he’s one of the top players…so I concede the 9b. Bam! He says “you can’t concede, I get that game and the next one!”

I was pissed. I felt like a warning would have been fine. Like I said, it wasn’t mentioned at the players meeting and we were playing Texas Express rules - which I guess had been updated to include that.

I know you need to know the rules. Lesson learned.
I NEVER concede. I look at it like this....
If I concede, I am denying you the experience of sinking the winning game (or match) ball. I won't do it. And I don't want anyone to concede to me. It actually kind of pisses me off! Just let me finish the game on my own
 
Vic's CLARIFIED version: Bob runs the table to the ball before the 8, the 4. While potting the 4, bob crashes into the 8 with the cueball, causing the cueball to go in. The cueball colliding with the 8 [after hitting the 4 ball first] ALSO CAUSES THE 8 TO GO IN. Vic then sweeps the table as the game is clearly over.

Vic continued to describe the results of the shot as "Bob scratched on the 8"...

Both parties described it as a scratch. Bob: I scratched on the 4. Vic: No, he scratched on the 8!

Bob never at any point realized he made the 8. He thought, as I did, that vic mistook the 4 for the 8. Vic brought the balls up before anyone but him knew the 8 had gone down, or at least that is what he claimed to my friend. It's the only explanation that makes all the pieces fit.
Even with Vic's newest explanation things still smell real fishy from where I sit and the pieces do not in fact fit together very well at all. There is however an explanation where all the pieces do fit together perfectly, and as a result seems much more likely to be the truth of what actually happened.

Literally one and only one thing mattered in the shot, and that thing was that the 8 ball was sunk out of turn. Yet Vic never once mentioned that. He didn't mention it to you, he didn't mention it to Bob, and he didn't even mention it even after you were ruling against him. When Vic is trying to argue that he has won the game, why on earth wouldn't he mention the one and only thing that would actually back up and justify his argument? Of course Vic would have argued with "but he made the 8 ball early/out of turn" if that is actually what he believed had happened, but that isn't what he believed at the time. At the time he thought Bob had been on the 8 and shooting at the 8, and subsequently made it but also scratched which of course would be a loss of game.

That's why Vic was using an argument that otherwise would not have mattered in the least if he knew that Bob had been on the 4 ball, namely that Bob "scratched on the 8"? That's why Vic was making an arguing for something that had not even occurred, namely Bob "scratching on the 8". Bob didn't scratch on the 8, Bob scratched while shooting the 4, but Vic didn't realize that at the time, otherwise that argument would make zero sense. At that moment Vic thought Bob was on and shooting at the 8, and all Vic knew is that after the shot was over both the 8 ball and the cue ball had gone into pockets and Vic thought Bob had lost because he "scratched on the 8".

That's also why Vic never felt the need to elaborate past "Bob scratched on the 8" as it was literally self explanatory based on what Vic believed had happened. That's why at the time of the incident Vic never conceded the fact that Bob had been shooting at the 4, because at the time he had in fact thought Bob was shooting at the 8. That's why Vic never mentioned that the 8 was made out of turn, literally the one and only thing that would have mattered, because he had thought Bob was on the 8 and shooting at the 8. That's why Vic's one and only repetitive argument was regarding how Bob "scratched on the 8", because he thought Bob had in fact been on the 8 and had scratched while shooting at the 8 which would be a clear loss of game. That's why Vic couldn't understand how you could possibly rule against him for Bob scratching on the 8 when it is so clear cut that it is a loss of game when you scratch on the 8. Now all the pieces actually fit.

Maybe Vic was pulling a move all along, but more likely it wasn't until later that Vic became aware/convinced that Bob really was shooting at the four. You are almost certainly right, Vic probably thought the 4 was the 8. Vic knew in his heart that he could be mistaken because he didn't have the best view and/or the lighting wasn't the best or he hadn't been paying careful attention etc and he couldn't in his heart say for sure which ball Bob had been shooting at or whether or not the 4 was even on the table. That coupled with the fact that he was hearing from too many places with too much confidence that Bob had in fact been on the four made him come to accept it after the fact. Vic was also seeing that literally nobody was siding with him and that's when he fully realized what had actually happened and how bad he had messed up. But rather than admitting the truth about having been mistaken about which ball Bob had been shooting and that he had just flat messed up regarding his claims and had pushed them much too strongly considering he didn't actually know what had happened and had basically just been guessing, Vic instead decided to try to save face and come up with a new story about how he knew Bob had been on the 4 but he had raked the balls because the 8 had been made out of turn--even though at the time he never once mentioned that the 8 ball had been made out of turn, and even though at the time his one and only argument was about how it was a loss since Bob had scratched on the 8. It's pretty clear which scenario all the facts actually fit real nice and cleanly.
 
And that's why around here they use the rule: concede the game ball and you lose that game and the next. I think that's been used for about 30 years. I think that's in some major tournaments now.
Only once have I personally encountered this rule. ...and the only time I've seen it added is when there will be a heavy amount of streamed content from the event. The TD seemed more concerned about potential viewers being short changed, then the sharking opponents.

I don't concede money balls, ever..., well unless I'm incredibly disgusted with myself and the result will be the end of the set. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with waiting another ~15s for the last ball to be made. As far as having someone concede the last ball(s) to me... I couldn't care less. However, if they have made a habit of conceding but decide to make me shoot something simple, you can count on me using a full 30s down on the shot before I pull the trigger. Figure if they have determined this time that it's a tester, then I should bear down and take my time.
 
Only once have I personally encountered this rule. ...and the only time I've seen it added is when there will be a heavy amount of streamed content from the event. The TD seemed more concerned about potential viewers being short changed, then the sharking opponents.

I don't concede money balls, ever..., well unless I'm incredibly disgusted with myself and the result will be the end of the set. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with waiting another ~15s for the last ball to be made. As far as having someone concede the last ball(s) to me... I couldn't care less. However, if they have made a habit of conceding but decide to make me shoot something simple, you can count on me using a full 30s down on the shot before I pull the trigger. Figure if they have determined this time that it's a tester, then I should bear down and take my time.
I agree except for receiving concessions. Pool players are "forged in fire" are they not? Shooting at the winning ball is usually a higher pressure shot. Even for a pro.

Receiving concessions does absolutely nothing for my psychological, mental, emotional, or spiritual strengths.... which are as important to my playing abilities as the mechanical part of the game is. I would rather finish the game for the character building experience.
 
However, if they have made a habit of conceding but decide to make me shoot something simple, you can count on me using a full 30s down on the shot before I pull the trigger.
When I was learning to play Racetrack Rick told me, "You give them the first money ball then Never give up another, they will be expecting it." The long distance shark.
On one occasion in a 9 ball tournament my opponent got straight on the 9 ball but close to the rail. We had been bumping heads in the little tournaments for a long time and played even. When Jimmy addressed the 9 ball he jacked up! Eliminating any thought of concession. When he missed it he raked it and scornfully said, "I thought that was a gimme Greg." My reply was, " You must be playing a different game. I'm playing 9 ball."
 
So I am playing a very strong player, and heaven forbid, I scratch on the 8. Out of respect for my opponent, I concede because it’s BIH and the 9 is an absolute gimme.

I lose that rack AND the next because I’m showing respect to my opponent?
I think that it is hard to draw the line where giving the game is acceptable or not.

The situation you described is usually not an issue. When someone concedes with more than a ball on the table, the reason can be not to let your opponent get into stroke. This shouldn't be allowed. I believe the only way to keep your opponent out of stroke is to not miss a ball. This move is more effective in an alternating break format.

Another situation is your playing a match. Several times in the match you needed to make a straight in shot and draw the cueball back 8 inches. You have missed your mark every time so far. Now your opponent has made the eight and scratched in a game of nine ball. The Nine is near the pocket and presents no challenge. I would take ball in hand and make the nine while trying to draw the cueball 8 inches back. (The shot I have been struggling with) Doing this doesn't lower my chances to make the Gimmie shot and may help me going forward in the match or tournament if I dial in my cueball control. Your opponent should not be able to take this away from you.

Simply put people take can advantage of conceding a game. That is why it should carry the penalty of an extra game in tournament play.
 
I think that it is hard to draw the line where giving the game is acceptable or not.

The situation you described is usually not an issue. When someone concedes with more than a ball on the table, the reason can be not to let your opponent get into stroke. This shouldn't be allowed. I believe the only way to keep your opponent out of stroke is to not miss a ball. This move is more effective in an alternating break format.

Another situation is your playing a match. Several times in the match you needed to make a straight in shot and draw the cueball back 8 inches. You have missed your mark every time so far. Now your opponent has made the eight and scratched in a game of nine ball. The Nine is near the pocket and presents no challenge. I would take ball in hand and make the nine while trying to draw the cueball 8 inches back. (The shot I have been struggling with) Doing this doesn't lower my chances to make the Gimmie shot and may help me going forward in the match or tournament if I dial in my cueball control. Your opponent should not be able to take this away from you.

Simply put people take can advantage of conceding a game. That is why it should carry the penalty of an extra game in tournament play.
I see your point. I also noted another response that said conceding deprives my opponent of the thrill of sinking the winner.

I’ll not concede in the future.
 
Back
Top