Difference in Nickel/Dime tip radius

[ShootingArts]

Want to try this too

This may sound crazy. I play with English! on vitually every shot & I prefer a some what thick soft tip that is only rounded on the edges. Think about it. You are actually talking about the circumference. The curved line based on a certain length radius. The shorter the radius the more curved the circumference. When shooting on the 'edge' of the cue ball with my flat rounded edge tip, the curved part hittting the ball is probably based on the radius of maybe one fourth of an inch or less. I have much more of a curve hitting the curve of the cue ball, not the sharp angle of a dime radius based circumference that abrupty stops & then angles straight down to the ferrule. I just beat a pretty good bar player yesterday with a stick he made fun of because it was so warped that the tip rose more the an inch when he rolled it, but... it had a 'good' thick tip that had not been
'shaped' except for some wear on the edges. As I said it may sound crazy but U may want to try it the next time U re-tip before you shape your tip to a nickle or a dime. But like someone said earlier, it's what ever works for YOU, not me or anyone else. You've got to find your own way. Like Ben Hogan said you have to dig it out of the ground, or in this case the chalk. Good luck with it.

I intend to try this next time I put a tip on too. For a lot of years I played with a very lightly pressed milk dud, about back to original height or a bit less. Corners lightly rounded large flat center. The tips lasted for thousands of hours of play and played just fine. Almost all tips in the pool hall were shaped like that too.

Most old things become new again and maybe the time has come for this tip shape to come back in style.

Hu

 

[ctyhntr]

I have the same experience. On 13mm shafts I use a nickel profile, and 12.5mm and below I go with dime.

Actually, the reverse happens

If you shape a tip to dime and play for a week or so you will be shooting with a nickel radius

Hitting leather against a harder surface does not increase its radius angle, it tends to flatten it. Hitting a flatter nickel against a cue ball a few hundres times will not make it rounder to approximate a dime radius.

 

[Koop]

I just let my chalk dictate the curvature of the tip. The chalk will naturally shape it and i just leave it at that.

 

[Mitchxout]

And the tip's sensitivity to unintended CB spin is affected by its curvature, not by it's width.

How can width not matter?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Actually, the reverse happens

If you shape a tip to dime and play for a week or so you will be shooting with a nickel radius

Hitting leather against a harder surface does not increase its radius angle, it tends to flatten it. Hitting a flatter nickel against a cue ball a few hundres times will not make it rounder to approximate a dime radius.

Actually I think you both may be mistaken. Your *chalking* habits have far more to do with your tip shape than anything else (after all mushrooming is taken care of). Chalk is abrasive and different people chalk differently. This grinds the tip into a consistent shape for each person.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
...the tip's sensitivity to unintended CB spin is affected by its curvature, not by it's width.

Mitchxout:
How can width not matter?

Think of two tips with the same curvature, one wider than the other. If you remove the outer layer of material from the wider one, what you have left is the thinner one - they're both identical except for the extra outer material on the wider one. So they're both identically sensitive to unintended sidespin until you hit so far offcenter that the wider one hits on the "extra outer material" part and the thinner one hits on its edge. But (as my drawing above shows) you can't hit the CB that far offcenter without miscueing - so the tips behave identically within their operational range.

pj
chgo

 

[peter_gunn]

Actually I think you both may be mistaken. Your *chalking* habits have far more to do with your tip shape than anything else (after all mushrooming is taken care of). Chalk is abrasive and different people chalk differently. This grinds the tip into a consistent shape for each person.

KMRUNOUT

Nah, i use kamui chalk

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Actually I think you both may be mistaken. Your *chalking* habits have far more to do with your tip shape than anything else (after all mushrooming is taken care of). Chalk is abrasive and different people chalk differently. This grinds the tip into a consistent shape for each person.

KMRUNOUT

I've heard this theory before, but like Joel I've never seen it happen. In my experience tips only flatten from use, never get rounder.

pj
chgo

 

[Lexicologist71]

Most people unconciously aim through the center of the cue tip. A more severly rounded tip (dime) will contact the cue ball farther from the center of the ball, giving slightly more spin. There is a slight advantage in using the dime radius for the better player because they can hit closer to where they are actually aiming and they will get slightly more spin for where they are aiming. A flatter tip will require aiming farther off center for the same spin. Also of note, a player who has difficulty hitting the middle of the ball, will find a center ball hit easier to achieve with a flat tip. With a 13mm tip, they have 6.5mm of wiggle before their flat tip actually hits something other than the middle of the ball.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Dime vs nickle reply

I thought I posted a reply late last night, no, early this morning, but I don't see it. It was long so I won't repeat it, but I will try to condense it. There r alot of variables as often mentioned, tip size, 'radius', etc. I basically agree with, oh I forgot who posted it with pictures, but anyway he says a flat angled edge. One of the variables that is often not taken into consideration is the compression of the tip & friction. I've found thru nearly 46 yrs. of experience is that a soft tip like Elk Master that is basically flat on top with a 'filed' edge all the way around puts alot of spin on the ball & miscues the least when shooting @ the miscue limit. My edge is not 'flat' but only slightly rounded. to play good golf U have to compress the golf ball because the ball is softer than the club. The same with baseball. 'Pool' is different because the ball is extremely HARD. Hence the ball is not compressed it is hit & pushed. To do this @ the 'miscue tangent line U need traction, or friction. U need GRAB. All I can suggest is that he next time U re-tip, try just taking the sharp edge off of the tip & play with it before U shape it to a nickle or a dime. U might be surprised. I just beat a pretty good bar shooter with a cue he made fun of when he rolled it on the table & the tip game off more than an inch. I used it because it had a 'thick' unshaped tip except for a little wear around the edges. It was a good tip for me. Like Ben Hogan said U have to dig it out of the ground or in this case the chalk. It is whatever is best for YOU not me or anybody else. Just my long winded 2 cents.

 

[ENGLISH!]

For joewag

Can you post a pic please? Also what tip are you using?

I'm courious. I play with an 11.75 OB Classic and Kamui Blk Hard tip. FWIW I heard a little while back that the pros were starting to use a flatter tip. I took it FWIW but after reading ur post,... what the heck,.. I have a cue lathe and some LePro & Triangle tips. I'll give it a try and see what happens!

Sent from my SCH-I400 using Tapatalk 2

Can't do pics. I play with a soft Elk Master but I've used others as well. I just hand file the tip with an emory board (soft nail file). All I want to do is take the sharp edge off. I do it while bending the board slightly but someone here said he does it with a straight angle. I don't think it would matter much either way but I would rather smooth out the TWO sharp edges created by doing a straight angle. Do the angle 1st., try it, if it works leave it, if not, smooth the 2 edges out. As I said I don't think that it would matter much but it might if the tip is 'too' hard. Don't give up on it too quickly. Good luck with it.

 

[dr_dave]

FYI, the following diagram from my January '08 BD article illustrates many of the points that have brought up in this thread:

Check out the article if you want more info and additional illustrations.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[sawtex]

The tip has nothing to do with throw, which is the OB's direction being changed. And the tip's sensitivity to unintended CB spin (not OB throw) is affected by its curvature, not by it's width.

But of course you can say whatever you want. People do it on here all the time.

pj
chgo

If you did not hit the cue ball off center then there would be no throw and the tip does the hitting last time I played.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I've heard this theory before, but like Joel I've never seen it happen. In my experience tips only flatten from use, never get rounder.

pj
chgo

I have seen it happen on my own cues and others'. If your chalking habits are to chalk around the edge of the tip...it gets rounder. I prefer a nickel shape, so I actually altered my chalking habits to go from the center to the edge (uh oh...probably shouldn't have worded it that way...)

KMRUNOUT

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If you did not hit the cue ball off center then there would be no throw and the tip does the hitting last time I played.

Cute, but pointless.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...If your chalking habits are to chalk around the edge of the tip...it gets rounder.

My habit is to chalk around the edge of my tip and it gets flatter.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

If you did not hit the cue ball off center then there would be no throw

With a center-ball hit, there would be no spin-induced throw, but there could certainly be cut-induced throw.

FYI, good demonstrations and explanations of squirt (AKA "cue ball deflection") and throw can be found in the following videos:

NV B.70 - Squirt, swerve, and throw, from VEPS II
NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV​

and more information, for those interested, can be found here:

squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page​

I hope that helps,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Most people unconciously aim through the center of the cue tip. A more severly rounded tip (dime) will contact the cue ball farther from the center of the ball, giving slightly more spin. There is a slight advantage in using the dime radius for the better player because they can hit closer to where they are actually aiming and they will get slightly more spin for where they are aiming. A flatter tip will require aiming farther off center for the same spin. Also of note, a player who has difficulty hitting the middle of the ball, will find a center ball hit easier to achieve with a flat tip. With a 13mm tip, they have 6.5mm of wiggle before their flat tip actually hits something other than the middle of the ball.

Maybe this will sound crazy too, but the only time I am 'aiming' w/ the center of the tip is when I am hitting center low or high. If I'm shooting high or low left, I'm using (aiming) w/ the right side of the tip, the part that is going to actually contact the cue ball I agree with most of the rest but since I can NOT put the 'exact' contact point of my tip on the exact center of the cue ball within 1 mm I 'never' shoot on the vertical axis of the cue ball. I want english I can predict, not a surprise. The center of the tip aiming thing just got me, I guess.

 

[ENGLISH!]

FYI, the following diagram from my January '08 BD article illustrates many of the points that have brought up in this thread:

Check out the article if you want more info and additional illustrations.

Enjoy,
Dave

When do U shoot with your cue laying flat on the table? I've taken physics but I am not a scientist. Einstien could explain all the properties to throwing a curve ball but he could not throw one. You're explaining with pictures in 2 dementions leaving out many variables such as tip compression & tip friction & direction force off from center. I think the question should be what type of tip shape on tips with equall compression & frictional qualities can hit the cue ball farthest off from center, in an applicable situation, while maintaining enough friction so as to NOT miscue. That will impart the most spin on the ball. After 45 yrs. of playing, I know what works best for me, but what's best for me certainly would not be what is best for 'everyone' else. Scientist have theories & then they test the theory. Sometimes they're right & sometimes they're wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong but all is not equal in these 'discussions'. Please take no offense by this as non is meant. I'm merely offering up some 'food' for thought. Thanks for the pics as they are very good for reference & explanation. As I suggested to others, I suggest experimenting with the one tip, first flat w/ 'reduced' edges, then a nickle shape, the a dime shape & see what works best for them & their fear of the envelope, which is the point of miscue.

 

[dr_dave]

When do U shoot with your cue laying flat on the table?

FYI, I've revised the diagram and added an additional tip radius, using a more-realistic tip offset (within the miscue limit for all three cases). Here's the revised diagram:

You're explaining with pictures in 2 dimensions leaving out many variables such as tip compression & tip friction & direction force off from center.

The points of the diagram are:
- tip shape makes a difference in apparent and actual tip offset (and applied spin).
- a rounder tip creates more tip offset (and more spin) for the same cue position.
- a very flat tip will create contact at the edge of the tip if the offset from center is large enough.

Things get a little more complicated if you consider tip compression, but I think the messages above still apply. Concerning friction, I am assuming there is enough to prevent slip (otherwise, there would be a miscue). Therefore, the direction of force will be very predictable, based on how squirt varies with tip offset.

I think the question should be what type of tip shape on tips with equal compression & frictional qualities can hit the cue ball farthest off from center, in an applicable situation, while maintaining enough friction so as to NOT miscue. That will impart the most spin on the ball.

I like the way you state the question. I think the answer is fairly simple: As long as the tip is not too flat, the maximum amount of effective tip offset (and spin) you can achieve will be very nearly the same, regardless of tip shape (e.g., nickel vs. penny vs. dime); however, different tip shapes will require different cue positions to achieve the same amount of spin.

Regards,
Dave