Difficult Shot...Re. Miscue Limit

Tennesseejoe

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A few weeks ago I started a post, Miscue Limit. I appreciate the responses and the effort folks put in to them.

My problem was trying to make this shot from Freddy Bentivegna's book, Banking With The Beard. It took me about 50 or so tries (probably more} before success. I have made it 3 times in a row but then couldn't make it for another 50. The information in your replies has increased my success rate. Some replied wondering why put so much thought to determine maximum English when there is little benefit. The benefit is being able to make this shot. I have yet to see anyone make it.

Give it a try and let us know how it worked for you.

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Looks to me like it could be hard to get the spin right - doesn't take much to affect those nearly straight shots.

pj
chgo
 
Tennesseejoe said:
A few weeks ago I started a post, Miscue Limit. I appreciate the responses and the effort folks put in to them.

My problem was trying to make this shot from Freddy Bentivegna's book, Banking With The Beard. It took me about 50 or so tries (probably more} before success. I have made it 3 times in a row but then couldn't make it for another 50. The information in your replies has increased my success rate. Some replied wondering why put so much thought to determine maximum English when there is little benefit. The benefit is being able to make this shot. I have yet to see anyone make it.

Give it a try and let us know how it worked for you.
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Like most twist banks, max spin on this shot is a big mistake. If the spin on the cue ball is extreme, it slides on the object ball rather than grabs the object ball.

The shot you show is also a proposition bet from Willie Jopling, except Willie had the balls by the long rail down by the head rail.
 
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Notice all these reverse banks work with minimal off center hits. I don't fully understand the transfer properties. Seems like too much spin won't hook up or something.

Never mind. I just read B Jewett's post.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Like most twist banks, max spin on this shot is a big mistake. If the spin on is extreme, it slides on the object ball rather than grab the object ball.

The shot you show is also a proposition bet from Willie Jopling, except Willie had the balls by the long rail down by the head rail.
Click to expand...

I used to make this shot on the long rail, don't remember working with it on the short rail. I remember it as a difficult shot but not super difficult.

Speed and the angle off the rail are the big deals. People often don't consider where the ball has to go to pocket it rather than shooting it all the way back to touching the long rail.

This is definitely a shot that most people try to overwork and the more they overwork it the harder it gets. One reason it is a great prop shot.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
I used to make this shot on the long rail, don't remember working with it on the short rail. I remember it as a difficult shot but not super difficult.

Speed and the angle off the rail are the big deals. People often don't consider where the ball has to go to pocket it rather than shooting it all the way back to touching the long rail.

This is definitely a shot that most people try to overwork and the more they overwork it the harder it gets. One reason it is a great prop shot.

Hu
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Some tables go by simply overcutting the ball up and back down.
 
straightline said:
Some tables go by simply overcutting the ball up and back down.
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Too many years now, I don't remember. Old tables with deader rails than fairly new Diamonds too. I think the first table I learned the shot on was a five by ten but then I used it now and then on nines. It wasn't an uncommon shot to come up, if you had the confidence to shoot it.

Hu
 
boogieman said:
Isn't this half a tip off center?
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Depends on who is talking. A half tip to me but some people looking at results more than tip location call it a tip off center. The different baseline has caused endless arguments on here about how far out to hit the cue ball or if it is even possible.

We can't get everybody to agree on the starting line, naturally things go to hell from there!

Hu
 
Bob Jewett said:
Like most twist banks, max spin on this shot is a big mistake. If the spin on the cue ball is extreme, it slides on the object ball rather than grabs the object ball.

The shot you show is also a proposition bet from Willie Jopling, except Willie had the balls by the long rail down by the head rail.
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Thanks Bob, I earned something today.
 
straightline said:
It's actually a full tip off center. A half tip would be a quarter tip off. :LOL:
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ShootingArts said:
Depends on who is talking. A half tip to me but some people looking at results more than tip location call it a tip off center. The different baseline has caused endless arguments on here about how far out to hit the cue ball or if it is even possible.

We can't get everybody to agree on the starting line, naturally things go to hell from there!

Hu
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I have no idea how this could be a full tip... it's half of the tip diameter. 🤣

I like the way Ted G. Brown said it in his Wagon Wheel book, he says things like address the CB where the bottom of your tip is 1/4" above center cue ball. I'm guessing this would be called 1 1/2 tips according to this, but I'll be damned if that makes a lick of sense.

If you have a 12.75mm tip (1/2" for easy figures), half a tip offset would be 1/4". A full tip would be 1/2" so if you're hitting it "1 tip high" in my mind there should be 1/4" between the bottom of the tip and center cue ball.

This is some of the strangest terminology for me. If I drive a half a mile from my house I don't end up 1/4 mile away. 😄

I've played for 30+ years and this is some of the worst terminology I've ever heard. No wonder I think most people don't know wtf they are talking about, they've lost 1/4" before the discussion even started! 😵‍💫
 
boogieman said:
... I've played for 30+ years and this is some of the worst terminology I've ever heard. No wonder I think most people don't know wtf they are talking about, they've lost 1/4" before the discussion even started! 😵‍💫
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A clearer way to describe how much spin you are using is the fraction of maximum. Maximum will be about the same for everyone. Like 50% follow, or half follow. Or max draw with a touch of left.
 
Bob Jewett said:
A clearer way to describe how much spin you are using is the fraction of maximum. Maximum will be about the same for everyone. Like 50% follow, or half follow. Or max draw with a touch of left.
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Measured by the tip/ball contact point rather than the stick itself. Measuring by the stick means different tip widths, curvatures, etc. will produce different results.

pj
chgo
 
It's good to know 10 and 16 years later, still nobody agrees on what one tip of english is.

Patrick Johnson

Thread 'How Much Is A Tip of English?'

How much is a "tip" of English? To ask another way: how many tips of English can be applied without miscuing?

I like to think it's 3 tips maximum. That means 1 tip = 1/3 of maximum, which is what you get when you move the shaft's edge to center ball (a common "1st step" for English).

The pics below show the full range of English divided into thirds (white bullseyes) and a 13mm shaft contacting the CB at each of the thirds. Notice that for maximum English the tip's contact patch (about 3mm) extends slightly beyond the tip's edge (this assumes a nickel curvature).

pj
chgo

View attachment 27569
Patrick Johnson

Thread 'How Much is "1 Tip" of Spin?'

How many different definitions are there for "1 tip" of spin?

2025-04-20 17_30_59-How Much is _1 Tip_ of Spin_ _ AzBilliards Forums.png
 
boogieman said:
I have no idea how this could be a full tip... it's half of the tip diameter. 🤣

I like the way Ted G. Brown said it in his Wagon Wheel book, he says things like address the CB where the bottom of your tip is 1/4" above center cue ball. I'm guessing this would be called 1 1/2 tips according to this, but I'll be damned if that makes a lick of sense.

If you have a 12.75mm tip (1/2" for easy figures), half a tip offset would be 1/4". A full tip would be 1/2" so if you're hitting it "1 tip high" in my mind there should be 1/4" between the bottom of the tip and center cue ball.

This is some of the strangest terminology for me. If I drive a half a mile from my house I don't end up 1/4 mile away. 😄

I've played for 30+ years and this is some of the worst terminology I've ever heard. No wonder I think most people don't know wtf they are talking about, they've lost 1/4" before the discussion even started! 😵‍💫
Click to expand...
All of the tip is clear of center and the direct striking point is half the diameter. Half tip.
This all clears up if you use common linear units instead of tips.
 
Here’s the illustration referenced above, comparing tip offsets and contact points for center ball, 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 of maximum offset. I think it illustrates that the clearest way to describe tip position is contact point at fraction of maximum offset (i.e., “1/3 right”, “1/2 top left”, “maximum draw”, etc.).

pj
chgo

IMG_6897.jpeg


The tip's contact point is about the same fraction from the tip's center-to-edge as the cue ball's contact point is from its center-to-miscue limit (in the opposite direction).
 
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