How Much Is A Tip of English?

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
How much is a "tip" of English? To ask another way: how many tips of English can be applied without miscuing?

I like to think it's 3 tips maximum. That means 1 tip = 1/3 of maximum, which is what you get when you move the shaft's edge to center ball (a common "1st step" for English).

The pics below show the full range of English divided into thirds (white bullseyes) and a 13mm shaft contacting the CB at each of the thirds. Notice that for maximum English the tip's contact patch (about 3mm) extends slightly beyond the tip's edge (this assumes a nickel curvature).

pj
chgo

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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Thats the measurement of "tips of english" that Ive always used. Its interesting to see that your opinion has changed on the subject. Why the change?

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=134289
Not entirely different - I divided the maximum range of English into thirds then too, but numbered them as 1/2 "tip" each because that's more like how far the shaft actually moves. But most players seem to think there are more than 1 1/2 "tips" of English possible, so I adjusted the numbering to a more popular scale.

pj
chgo
 

SloMoHolic

When will then be now?
Silver Member
When I hear the phrase "1 tip of right," I interpret that as 1 tip's width further right than a center ball alignment. The phrase is, by definition, inexact, due to varying tip sizes. For example, my old Z2 shaft, which started out as 11.75 mm is now 11.4 mm.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding...
 

Steve Dickey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Given the various diameters of tips in use, I think the convention should be changed to percent of maximum. "Hit it with about 25% right english." Steve
 

TwinkleToes

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why are those not considered half tip increments? In golf, if a person says, "play this putt 2 balls out to the right", it mean that you play it two full ball diameters to the right of the cup. This diagram seems to use the radius instead.

Not disagreeing, just wanting to understand.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PJ, If you start with 2 tips of left, alignment wise, and pivot or swipe to 1 tip of right to shoot is the amount of english generated the same or more than just aligning with one tip of right? Has there been tests on this?
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
PJ, If you start with 2 tips of left, alignment wise, and pivot or swipe to 1 tip of right to shoot is the amount of english generated the same or more than just aligning with one tip of right? Has there been tests on this?

It seems to me that it would be more english that way. Because of the angle of the approach of your cue (your cue isn't hitting the ball "head on"/straight forward but is instead hitting slightly from the side) you are hitting closer to the edge of the ball than if you were to "parallel shift" over that same one tip of right english and hit "head on"/straight forward.

Or to put it another way, if you hit the same spot on the cue ball from two different directions/angles, one of them is going to be closer to the edge of the cue ball (when looking at it down the line of the cue/direction the cue is traveling) and will therefore impart more spin.
 
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pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Like PJ, I play with a tip smaller than 13mm....mine is 12mm...
...so I take 'tips of english' with a grain of salt.

Using a stripe ball as the cue ball, I think of the edge of the stripe as the 'mis-cue zone'.
 

Colin Colenso

<-- My Kids
Silver Member
Nice diagram PJ,
I tend to prefer the 1.5 tips max, or better yet, the a touch, 30%, 60%, 90% to indicate a little, 1/2 tip, 1 tip, 1.5 tips or thereabouts.

A fair bit of variation these days with people using tips from 11 to 13.5mm. I guess in the end, the popular terminology will win out, and a disclaimer could be added when we need to be precise.

Colin
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How much is a "tip" of English? To ask another way: how many tips of English can be applied without miscuing?

I like to think it's 3 tips maximum. That means 1 tip = 1/3 of maximum, which is what you get when you move the shaft's edge to center ball (a common "1st step" for English).

The pics below show the full range of English divided into thirds (white bullseyes) and a 13mm shaft contacting the CB at each of the thirds. Notice that for maximum English the tip's contact patch (about 3mm) extends slightly beyond the tip's edge (this assumes a nickel curvature).

pj
chgo

View attachment 68968

I like the 3mm mark idea to describe tips of English. Five distinct marks can be had before the miscue limit. So there's 5 max tips from center to play. This is unchanged no matter what diameter of shaft you play with so its much more universally applied. For 2.25" balls at least.
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Gold Member
Silver Member
How much is a "tip" of English? To ask another way: how many tips of English can be applied without miscuing?

I like to think it's 3 tips maximum. That means 1 tip = 1/3 of maximum, which is what you get when you move the shaft's edge to center ball (a common "1st step" for English).

The pics below show the full range of English divided into thirds (white bullseyes) and a 13mm shaft contacting the CB at each of the thirds. Notice that for maximum English the tip's contact patch (about 3mm) extends slightly beyond the tip's edge (this assumes a nickel curvature).

pj
chgo

View attachment 68968


I refer to your first English position as a half tip, 2nd position as a tip, each step simply measured to the edge of the tip.
 

androd

androd
Silver Member
A tip of English, to me is half the width of my ferrell. That seems to be what Patrick is saying.
When using BHE the same measurement imparts a little more English.

I've used a scribe down my ferrell for years for banking as I don't have a natural
feel for it.

Rod.
 

Colin Colenso

<-- My Kids
Silver Member
Some approximate measurements I drew up just for fun.

For anyone interested, I estimate the actual parallel movement of the cue, from center to max tip offset at 50% CB radius of 28.575mm is:
10mm tip = 1.8 tips
11mm tip = 1.7 tips
12mm tip = 1.6 tips
13mm tip = 1.5 tips
14mm tip = 1.4 tips
 
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bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
When I do think about it (which isn't often; I usually just do it) I think in terms of 1, 2 and 3 tips of English with each being 1/2 the diameter of the tip.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Given the various diameters of tips in use, I think the convention should be changed to percent of maximum. "Hit it with about 25% right english." Steve
I agree with this - and "1 tip = 1/3" (or "1/2 tip = 1/3") is a way of doing that using common "tips of English" terminology.

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Nice diagram PJ,
I tend to prefer the 1.5 tips max, or better yet, the a touch, 30%, 60%, 90% to indicate a little, 1/2 tip, 1 tip, 1.5 tips or thereabouts.

A fair bit of variation these days with people using tips from 11 to 13.5mm. I guess in the end, the popular terminology will win out, and a disclaimer could be added when we need to be precise.

Colin
I don't think it matters much whether we say there are 3 tips or 1.5 tips within the range of offsets - so long as however many tips are possible, they describe common fractions of maximum English. I like using thirds; you might like fourths - but the universal constant (our "common language") is the fraction/percentage of maximum English that can be applied. That also has the advantage of focusing on the actual tip/ball contact patch (as opposed to movements of the stick).

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
PJ, If you start with 2 tips of left, alignment wise, and pivot or swipe to 1 tip of right to shoot is the amount of english generated the same or more than just aligning with one tip of right? Has there been tests on this?
To compare apples with apples, the amount of tip offset should be measured using the path the cue ball will take as the centerball line. Because of squirt it doesn't matter what direction the stick is pointed for measuring this; it's the tip offset compared with the cue ball's path that determines the effective tip offset and therefore the amount of English.

This means that any "swiping" stroke can be duplicated without swiping, by pivoting first and then stroking straight along the pivoted cue angle.

pj
chgo
 
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