Disappointing Sportsmanship or Not?

[Black-Balled]

You say 'everybody in the room...as is aplropriate' says nothing.

Then say you are disappointed in player A for not speaking up.

Reads contradictory, to me.

Opponent= opposing sides. It isn't even a question for me, to think it is somehow my responsibility to keep my opponent on course.

Our weekly 9-ball tournament. One of our top regulars - an A player, is playing a C player, with the spot of 2 games on the wire in a race to 5 for the C player. This round is about half way through the tournament, with plenty of players and spectators still here and watching. Score is tied 3-3. The C player has ball-in-hand on the 6-ball, but clearly sets the cue ball down and lines it up to play the 7-ball.

Everybody in the room including myself who is playing in a match 3 tables away, sees what's going on, but as is appropriate, no one says anything to tip off the shooter he's getting ready to play the wrong ball. His opponent is the only one who has that option of warning the player of the mistake he's about to make and also clearly sees what's going on, but says nothing.

As soon as the player shoots and pockets the 6-ball, of course his opponent immediately tells him he just shot at the wrong ball, and of course also tells him he thought he was just checking out where he wanted to leave the cue ball for the 7-ball shot and didn't realize he was going to shoot it until it was too late, which was clearly not the case, in my opinion.

The A player went on to win the match. I didn't say anything, but it just didn't sit well with me that this player, whom I generally have respected as a nice guy and and always shows proper etiquette towards his opponent, had the opportunity to do the right thing here, but he placed the importance of his winning the match over showing good sportsmanship and chose to remain silent and then calling the foul. Karma caught up with him as he lost his next match anyway.

Opinions as to what others would have done in this same situation, keeping in mind that yes, prize $ was involved but not that much - this is just a weekly tournament and your opponent is a far weaker and far less experienced player?

 

[CharlesUFarley]

It isn't poor sportsmanship, more a lack of class. Does an A player really need a C player to make a mental error to win? They will make enough pool mistakes that an A player should be able to find a way to win.

An edit: I have to admit if the C player is a jerk I will cheerfully sit there and let him crap in his nest!

Hu

The C player is already getting a handicap in the form of a 40% head start. To how much more help is he/she entitled?

 

[PoolBum]

I get your gist, but it's not a "factual error" as much as it's a mental mistake. Mistakes happen. He made his. And the reason I hate this opponent should do this or that, is then when the opponent really didn't see it, he's now a classless jerk because he didn't stop his opponent from shooting the right ball because he decided to take his chair and sip his beer.

Should I tell someone they missed home plate. I mean, there was no play on them, they simply stepped a little too far and missed it. The ball is still in the outfield. Missing stepping on a piece of rubber that is 17 inches wide takes no special skill, no judgement, no strategy. He just was not paying attention. And on appeal, he will be called out. Simple as that.


In a tournament, you better bring your A game, and the mental aptitude to win, because folks should not be there to hold your hand or change your diapers. I assume everyone is a big boy or girl now a days, and they know how to watch their own match and shoot the right balls. If they don't, it might be time to stay out of tourneys until you do. just saying.

I think all mistakes in judgment are mental mistakes, since they all involve errors in judgment (a mental act). When I say it's a factual mistake, I mean the mistake does not involve any error in how to execute a shot--it's just a factual error about which balls are on the table.

I'm not arguing that there is anything wrong with not telling your opponent that they are about to shoot the wrong ball. I'm offering an explanation for why some people might think it's wrong, when they don't think it's wrong to not tell your opponent that they are about to miss a kick, or scratch, etc.

 

[JohnnyOzone]

Also......not calling the error is the only way for someone to learn they need to be paying attention......all the time.

This!
"The burnt hand learns best"

 

[jimmyco]

. . . Not . . .

 

[ChrisinNC]

In the regular nine ball ring game where I grew up playing, if you were dumb enough to warn an opponent that he was about to shoot the wrong ball, and he then (as a result) proceeded to pocket a money ball, you had to pay instead for all the other players!
For myself, in normal competition, I’m the kind of guy who would warn my opponent that he was about to commit an unintentional foul. BUT, if as the match progressed, I learned my opponent was a ***** who didn’t deserve my respect, and he had me down to my last dime, then.....who knows?

No kidding - in a ring game everything is totally different as there are numerous other players involved. Same reason the next shooter up in a ring game isn't permitted to concede an easy 9-ball shot.

 

[ChrisinNC]

You say 'everybody in the room...as is aplropriate' says nothing.

Then say you are disappointed in player A for not speaking up.

Reads contradictory, to me.

Opponent= opposing sides. It isn't even a question for me, to think it is somehow my responsibility to keep my opponent on course.

If you know the etiquette/rules of tournament play regarding these situations (and I'm not referring to league play as I don't know what the rules are there), no one observing, not even the tournament director is allowed to warn that person they are shooting the wrong ball. The only player permitted to do so is the opponent, only if they choose to do so. If anyone else had told him he was shooting the wrong ball, as TD, as late in the game as it was and it likely would have a direct affect on who won the game, I would have called for them to re-rack and start the game over.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

I dont find it unsportsmanlike or classless or disrespectful.

I have had it happen myself.

Both, the recipient of ball and hand.
Also punished for my mistake.

Its a mistake you should pay for.

No need for tears.

 

[Bob Jewett]

How about these similar situations.

You are on two fouls at nine ball and come up to the table. Your opponent just made some balls and played safe, but there were some interruptions and he has forgotten you are on two fouls.

Do you remind him that he must warn you?

You are playing straight pool and your opponent has ball in hand in the kitchen and is about to play directly on a ball behind the line. It's clear that he has no idea what the rule is.

Do you stop him and tell him the rule?

 

[Bob Jewett]

A similar situation comes up frequently at carom billiards. Each player must shoot with his own cue ball (white or yellow) and it is sometimes a problem to remember which is yours after your opponent misses a power shot and all three balls are flying around the table. Some opponents speak up and some don't.

I once had an opponent who forgot several times. I stopped him a couple of times, but then I made a mistake and stopped him when he was playing the right ball.

Here's a compromise: Your opponent is about to do a thinko. You check to make sure it's actually his mistake and not yours. Then you stop him and say, "Wait up. The five ball is next. I will not warn you again, ever. And you owe me one." (If your opponent happens to be Mr. Thornley, you get ball in hand and he won't owe you one.)

 

[Texas Carom Club]

A similar situation comes up frequently at carom billiards. Each player must shoot with his own cue ball (white or yellow) and it is sometimes a problem to remember which is yours after your opponent misses a power shot and all three balls are flying around the table. Some opponents speak up and some don't.
)

happened often at my place when i had guys over, i use the classic set, white ball red ball and white ball with red dot

and as it was friendly and we wanted to always chart our progress, i let him know

but in competition forget it

 

[cubswin]

I've done both things, told them, and not told them. Can defend either action in my own mind, and really just boils down to my mood at the time.

If for instance I've already had to remind someone, and then they do it again I'm not telling them the second time. I don't expect anyone to tell me if I'm about to make a foul, don't get upset if they don't.

 

[ShootingArts]

entitlement

The C player is already getting a handicap in the form of a 40% head start. To how much more help is he/she entitled?

He/she isn't entitled to a thing not specified in the tournament rules. It is more a question of what the A player feels is right. Last week I saw a guy sitting there with a sign as I went in a convenience store. He wasn't begging or being aggressive, the sign wasn't one of the more bullshit ones. He had his bags and stuff with him, obviously on the road and living hard, he was filthy too. I had six dollars and a handful of twenties for cash. I gave him the six dollars, I wasn't feeling twenty dollars generous!

When I came out the door he spoke to me. He had saw that Popeye's had a five dollar special and was going to walk a couple hundred yards to a Popeye's we could see the sign for and eat, obviously a big deal for him to splurge that much to eat. He wasn't begging, just sharing something he was excited about. I had more change and reached in my pocket and handed him another five. "You may need it at Popeyes."

Eleven dollars moved him out of the five dollar special range to eating whatever he saw on the menu. Was he entitled to the first six dollars? Nope, I didn't owe him a thing and most walked right past him. Did I then owe him another five? Hell no!

There is a difference between what somebody is entitled to and what is right. I have done what is right involving a lot more money than a small time tournament. On the other hand when somebody has already pulled a chickenshit move I have met them halfway! I generally give people one chance. I expect them to be decent people until they prove different. Decent people I cut a little slack. Not seeing the six ball wasn't a pool mistake like shooting a shot likely to scratch, not seeing it was in a little different category as some have already well explained. Somebody that didn't tell him about it wasn't a bad guy just like the people walking past the man in need of help. However, people with class usually cut somebody that far below them a little slack. I tell anyone of any level as a general rule, just not how I need to win.

To each his own. Neither action is wrong depending on the person's viewpoint. I wouldn't feel very happy about the win if I won because I let the person make that mistake. Someone else might feel different. We have all made that mistake sometime or another. A person can see it as things just evening up.

Hu

 

[Bob Jewett]

... and as it was friendly and we wanted to always chart our progress, i let him know...

But part of learning the game is to remember which ball is yours (or which ball is next). If you have training wheels in practice games how are you supposed to keep it together in real competition?

 

[Texas Carom Club]

But part of learning the game is to remember which ball is yours (or which ball is next). If you have training wheels in practice games how are you supposed to keep it together in real competition?

For the few first and only timers it was fine since they are already processing so much New stuff,

The one guy i played with for most of the yr caught on quick

 

[Scratch85]

IMO, not disappointing sportsmanship. For some it’s hundreds, for some it’s thousands and for some it may be tens of thousands of competitive games played. Just another bump in the road of playing pool. I rarely make a judgement on anything done within the rules.

At least he didn’t clean his tip on the carpet.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[spartan]

Our weekly 9-ball tournament. One of our top regulars - an A player, is playing a C player, with the spot of 2 games on the wire in a race to 5 for the C player. This round is about half way through the tournament, with plenty of players and spectators still here and watching. Score is tied 3-3. The C player has ball-in-hand on the 6-ball, but clearly sets the cue ball down and lines it up to play the 7-ball.

Everybody in the room including myself who is playing in a match 3 tables away, sees what's going on, but as is appropriate, no one says anything to tip off the shooter he's getting ready to play the wrong ball. His opponent is the only one who has that option of warning the player of the mistake he's about to make and also clearly sees what's going on, but says nothing.

As soon as the player shoots and pockets the 6-ball, of course his opponent immediately tells him he just shot at the wrong ball, and of course also tells him he thought he was just checking out where he wanted to leave the cue ball for the 7-ball shot and didn't realize he was going to shoot it until it was too late, which was clearly not the case, in my opinion.

The A player went on to win the match. I didn't say anything, but it just didn't sit well with me that this player, whom I generally have respected as a nice guy and and always shows proper etiquette towards his opponent, had the opportunity to do the right thing here, but he placed the importance of his winning the match over showing good sportsmanship and chose to remain silent and then calling the foul. Karma caught up with him as he lost his next match anyway.

Opinions as to what others would have done in this same situation, keeping in mind that yes, prize $ was involved but not that much - this is just a weekly tournament and your opponent is a far weaker and far less experienced player?

No. Of cos not. He's playing to win not to lose.

Having said that, why did you and the spectators keep quiet? Why didn't you or someone shout "WRONG BALL, you fool " :grin:
Someone should make an app and have such warning shouts. So if something like this happens in a match, just turn on the app on high volume and send warning to C :grin:

 

[pvc lou]

I kinda like this answer.

It’s a two-way street......that sign of character malarkey.
What kind of character does a man have who expects his opponent to help him win?

If a guy told me I was shooting the wrong ball....I’d hand him the cue-ball.
....I’m responsible for my own decisions.

 

[pvc lou]

Dang it. I like this answer too. Good dilemma there, OP.

He/she isn't entitled to a thing not specified in the tournament rules. It is more a question of what the A player feels is right. Last week I saw a guy sitting there with a sign as I went in a convenience store. He wasn't begging or being aggressive, the sign wasn't one of the more bullshit ones. He had his bags and stuff with him, obviously on the road and living hard, he was filthy too. I had six dollars and a handful of twenties for cash. I gave him the six dollars, I wasn't feeling twenty dollars generous!

When I came out the door he spoke to me. He had saw that Popeye's had a five dollar special and was going to walk a couple hundred yards to a Popeye's we could see the sign for and eat, obviously a big deal for him to splurge that much to eat. He wasn't begging, just sharing something he was excited about. I had more change and reached in my pocket and handed him another five. "You may need it at Popeyes."

Eleven dollars moved him out of the five dollar special range to eating whatever he saw on the menu. Was he entitled to the first six dollars? Nope, I didn't owe him a thing and most walked right past him. Did I then owe him another five? Hell no!

There is a difference between what somebody is entitled to and what is right. I have done what is right involving a lot more money than a small time tournament. On the other hand when somebody has already pulled a chickenshit move I have met them halfway! I generally give people one chance. I expect them to be decent people until they prove different. Decent people I cut a little slack. Not seeing the six ball wasn't a pool mistake like shooting a shot likely to scratch, not seeing it was in a little different category as some have already well explained. Somebody that didn't tell him about it wasn't a bad guy just like the people walking past the man in need of help. However, people with class usually cut somebody that far below them a little slack. I tell anyone of any level as a general rule, just not how I need to win.

To each his own. Neither action is wrong depending on the person's viewpoint. I wouldn't feel very happy about the win if I won because I let the person make that mistake. Someone else might feel different. We have all made that mistake sometime or another. A person can see it as things just evening up.

Hu

 

[poolguy4u]

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I won't want to win that way.

I would tell my opponent to shoot the right ball.




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