disgraceful is what it is!!!!

[Blackjack]

Well, Blackjack, as we have been round and round this topic ad nauseum, I'll provide my opinion once more, just in case you have selective memory problems.

The IPT was a brand-new organization. They publicized through the pool media that they were looking to get 150 members for the tour. Each pool player who was interested was requested to send in their portfolio and information to the IPT by September 30th, 2005. Unfortunately, not every pool player who desired to be a member of the IPT after the fact, followed through on this request before the fact. Therein likes why Bernie Friend and others got into the IPT. Their quick-thinking afforded them the opportunity of a lifetime.

Thing long, think wrong.



There were quite a few players who were not on the IPT initially that I thought should have been up for consideration as one of the 150 members. Ronnie Wiseman's name comes to mind.

One thing for sure, Kevin Trudeau didn't ignore the great ones of the sport for the launch of the IPT. In fact, he invited all of the BCA Hall of Famers to be a member, out of respect for pool as a sport, which is more than I can say about some of these other young whipper-snapper promoters.

I can think of several UPA members who got in the IPT who should not have been on the IPT. We could have this debate all day and then some.



When somebody takes money out of your pocket, Blackjack, placing hurdles and stop signs in front of you, preventing you from earning your livelihood, you just might feel a little differently than you do today sitting at home on your computer expressing your opinions. When you travel hundreds of miles to tournaments, making reservations, paying monies, traveling hours and hours to get there, only to find out that you cannot compete unless you sign a legally binding document, without benefit of counsel, it raises bright red flags.

Would you like to continue this dance, or should we move on to the next topic for discussion?

JAM

If you do search - from quite a few years back... I believe that I strongly advised the players not to sign those very same documents and opposed the UPA in those matters very strongly - publicly. You can move on as much as you'd like, but the fact remains that "certain" players that DID sign up for the IPT were ignored and had their paperwork tossed. I brought it up to show that there will always be favoritism no matter who is doing the picking and choosing. FWIW, in the IPT's case, I know who did the application tossing - and it's not something they want me to go public with, trust me. For now, it's just my little secret, but I'm not the only one that holds that secret.

If it makes you fel any better, I do UNDERSTAND what its like to have someone mess with my livelihood - just ask Kevin Trudeau the dirty games he played in my personal life last summer. When you find out all of the specifics, which would definitely appall you and cause you think twice about supporting that $hitball, come back and we'll talk further about it. In that situation, I paid more of a price than you could possibly imagine and many people here never knew what was going on.

 

[corvette1340]

Jam,
With all due respect, all you do is criticize on here. On the one hand you complain about the lack of tournaments and payouts across the "great american tourney trail" as you call it. You say this all the time. You ask why all the sponsors and individuals aren't doing more to help American pool. On the other hand, you constantly criticize the ones that are doing something to promote pool. The reality is that the UPA and Dragon Promotions, however misguided and problematic they have been, have done more for big time tournaments than anyone in the past several years. You will argue that Kevin Trudeau did more for pool, yada, yada, yada, but the fact is that KT was in it for KT and when he realized it couldn't turn a profit then he was out. I am not even a Charlie Williams fan, but at least he pays! Like you, I commend the efforts of local tourney organizers. Mike Janis is one of my favorite people in pool and I always enjoy his tourneys. Maybe someone should start some bigger tourneys with him as the catalyst. Or maybe someone should seek other sponsors and backing for a new tour. Either way, there are do'ers and then there are people who do nothing and I don't think its fair for the ones who do nothing to criticize the ones that do.

 

[JAM]

If you do search - from quite a few years back... I believe that I strongly advised the players not to sign those very same documents and opposed the UPA in those matters very strongly - publicly. You can move on as much as you'd like, but the fact remains that "certain" players that DID sign up for the IPT were ignored and had their paperwork tossed.

Geezy peezy, David. The IPT received over 3,000 applications. How could they have chosen them all for a 150-member tour?

I brought it up to show that there will always be favoritism no matter who is doing the picking and choosing. FWIW, in the IPT's case, I know who did the application tossing - and it's not something they want me to go public with, trust me. For now, it's just my little secret, but I'm not the only one that holds that secret.

This is absurd. You state you have insider knowledge about who did the tossing of applications. Yet, I know the person who did made the final decision.

If it makes you fel any better, I do UNDERSTAND what its like to have someone mess with my livelihood - just ask Kevin Trudeau the dirty games he played in my personal life last summer. When you find out all of the specifics, which would definitely appall you and cause you think twice about supporting that $hitball, come back and we'll talk further about it. In that situation, I paid more of a price than you could possibly imagine and many people here never knew what was going on.

There's a lot of things happening behind the scenes, David. The IPT is now a docked ship at the harbor. It will not start up again until those behind the scenes quit rumor-mongering and/or stating in public they have dirty little secrets, but cannot divulge what it is. I mean, come on. This is childish.

FWIW, there are MANY IPT players who desire for the IPT start back up again. Just because they don't post here no AzBilliards doesnt' mean they do not exist.

JAM

 

[JAM]

Jam,
With all due respect, all you do is criticize on here. On the one hand you complain about the lack of tournaments and payouts across the "great american tourney trail" as you call it. You say this all the time. You ask why all the sponsors and individuals aren't doing more to help American pool. On the other hand, you constantly criticize the ones that are doing something to promote pool. The reality is that the UPA and Dragon Promotions, however misguided and problematic they have been, have done more for big time tournaments than anyone in the past several years. You will argue that Kevin Trudeau did more for pool, yada, yada, yada, but the fact is that KT was in it for KT and when he realized it couldn't turn a profit then he was out. I am not even a Charlie Williams fan, but at least he pays! Like you, I commend the efforts of local tourney organizers. Mike Janis is one of my favorite people in pool and I always enjoy his tourneys. Maybe someone should start some bigger tourneys with him as the catalyst. Or maybe someone should seek other sponsors and backing for a new tour. Either way, there are do'ers and then there are people who do nothing and I don't think its fair for the ones who do nothing to criticize the ones that do.

You have a beef with me, Pal, and I have a beef with you. I have already given you bad rep. Why not follow through on your bad rep you gave to me. Whenever you respond to my posts, they are always laced with accusations and falsehoods. You dont' like me; I don't like you. Stay out of my way.

JAM

Edited: P.S. I am probably the strongest long-time supporter on this forum for tournaments, regional tours, tours, and pool events. Get your facts straight, Corvette Man. Don't pick apart my posts to suit your own sucker-punching needs. If you'd like me to pull up a few hundred threads where I have supported tournaments, regional tours, tours, and pool events, I'll be happy to do so when I have a spare few hours.

 

[JAM]

Jam,
With all due respect, all you do is criticize on here.

Sucker-punching monkey, looking for a fight.

JAM

 

[corvette1340]

You have a beef with me, Pal, and I have a beef with you. I have already given you bad rep. Why not follow through on your bad rep you gave to me. Whenever you respond to my posts, they are always laced with accustations and falsehoods. You dont' like me; I don't like you. Stay out of my way.

JAM

lol, mature. Why in the world would you give me bad rep for pointing out what everyone else on here is thinking? In no way did I call you a name nor insult you. I simply pointed out that it might be better to "do" something about the state of pool instead of berate others in the industry and hope that things will change.

 

[John Barton]

David,

I have run 99 balls as well. I must have missed the call. I have no qualm with RG putting on a tournament and inviting who he wants to. I have a HUGE problem with billing it erroneously as a World Championship when it is in fact a private party.

Please do not take my points out of context. I never said you can't play, that Stu or Megan or anyone else who was in the tournament can't play. I said, and I stand by this, that you, Megan, Bo Ram (or was it Yu Ram), and other unknown players have not earned the right to have a berth for a chance to hold the title of 14.1 World Champion.

It is demeaning to the title to allow unqualified players to compete. Not to mention that giving yourself a spot in the "World Championships" even though your game is completely uncompetetive is completely classless. Maybe Barry Hearn should reserve himself a spot in the 9-Ball Worlds. Make sure a more deserving player doesn't get a shot. But it's okay to get your thrills.

No one would care if the tournament were billed as the Randy Goldwater 14.1 Invitational. Come party with randy and 63 of his closest friends. Then Grady would not have a leg to stand on. But when Goldwater and Co. decided to call it a "World Championship" then to me at least they automatically assumed the responsibility of making a true World Championship.

As for SJM I know he is a jam up straight pool player and I know that it was an accomplishment to win the qualifier and an honor and thrill to play in the main event. However I am sure that if you asked him to compile a list of 64 players to fill out a roster for a 14.1 World Championship contest based solely on past accomplishments then I am 100% positive that he could easily fill that list with 64 names that DO NOT include his, yours, Megan's, Bo/Yu Ram's or the other guy you mentioned.

As for Thorsten Hohmann and his World Championship. Thorsten was not invited to the event. He earned his spot through his rankings in Germany and Europe, precluded by the many German and European titles he held. Then he had to play through the group stages and finally through the knockout stages in the toughest 9-ball tournament on the planet to achieve that which he was destined. Comparing the 9-Ball WC to the RG-Party is really not a good way to make a point in favor of the RG Club.

If RG's 14.1 event had followed the format of the 9-Ball WC in player selections then there would be no debate - except that the BCA allows the UPA to select the USA's participants for the 9-Ball WC and that still would have left Grady out Sorry Grady - Take it up with the BCA on that one.

 

[corvette1340]

Sucker-punching monkey, looking for a fight.

JAM

In what way was I looking for a fight JAM? You think that anytime someone voices a differing opinion than yours or gives constructive criticism that they are looking for a fight. You are the one that has called me several names and I have called you only by "JAM". I wish that other people would post in response to this instead of just constantly giving me positive rep for saying these things to you.

 

[JAM]

lol, mature. Why in the world would you give me bad rep for pointing out what everyone else on here is thinking?

Who made you speaker for the forum? Everyone else who?

In no way did I call you a name nor insult you. I simply pointed out that it might be better to "do" something about the state of pool instead of berate others in the industry and hope that things will change.

Let me tell you a thing or two. I have invested my monies, my time, and the past 7 years of my life into this wonderful world of pocket billiards. I have made sacrifices and given away things for free, all in the name of pool. When at events, I have raced back to my hotel room to provide updates, and upon returning home, I share all of my photos with this forum.

I will speak my opinion when I smell a skunk. Until you have been sprayed by the skunk yourself, keep your opinions about my opinions out of you subject matter for posting. You have already been banned once for your forum etiquette. I go out of my way to ignore you. I would like for you to do the same.

JAM

 

[Koop]

lol, mature. Why in the world would you give me bad rep for pointing out what everyone else on here is thinking? In no way did I call you a name nor insult you. I simply pointed out that it might be better to "do" something about the state of pool instead of berate others in the industry and hope that things will change.

Not everyone.
I'm quite sure Jennie has done plenty for pool, if nothing else, bringing her horse to numerous tournaments for the rest of us to enjoy. Someone this close, as well as Grady, Billy, Jay, and others, in my opinion, are the ONLY ones who can legitimately gripe at what's going on. I don't pretend to be an insider which is why I usually leave these threads alone.

Koop - an amateur at best

 

[Roy Steffensen]

In what way was I looking for a fight JAM? You think that anytime someone voices a differing opinion than yours or gives constructive criticism that they are looking for a fight. You are the one that has called me several names and I have called you only by "JAM". I wish that other people would post in response to this instead of just constantly giving me positive rep for saying these things to you.

I gave you good rep for your post, and I can't see how you were looking for a fight.

 

[JAM]

In what way was I looking for a fight JAM? You think that anytime someone voices a differing opinion than yours or gives constructive criticism that they are looking for a fight. You are the one that has called me several names and I have called you only by "JAM". I wish that other people would post in response to this instead of just constantly giving me positive rep for saying these things to you.

Maybe you will soon get those PMs about me, too, that you expressed previously when we engaged in a negative colloquy perviously on this forum. There are a selective few posters who enjoy sending PMs to stir the fires. I know because the ones they have sent them to, write to me to let me know who they are.

JAM

 

[corvette1340]

I gave you good rep for your post, and I can't see how you were looking for a fight.

Thank you.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

David,

I have run 99 balls as well. I must have missed the call. I have no qualm with RG putting on a tournament and inviting who he wants to. I have a HUGE problem with billing it erroneously as a World Championship when it is in fact a private party.

Please do not take my points out of context. I never said you can't play, that Stu or Megan or anyone else who was in the tournament can't play. I said, and I stand by this, that you, Megan, Bo Ram (or was it Yu Ram), and other unknown players have not earned the right to have a berth for a chance to hold the title of 14.1 World Champion.

It is demeaning to the title to allow unqualified players to compete. Not to mention that giving yourself a spot in the "World Championships" even though your game is completely uncompetetive is completely classless. Maybe Barry Hearn should reserve himself a spot in the 9-Ball Worlds. Make sure a more deserving player doesn't get a shot. But it's okay to get your thrills.

No one would care if the tournament were billed as the Randy Goldwater 14.1 Invitational. Come party with randy and 63 of his closest friends. Then Grady would not have a leg to stand on. But when Goldwater and Co. decided to call it a "World Championship" then to me at least they automatically assumed the responsibility of making a true World Championship.

As for SJM I know he is a jam up straight pool player and I know that it was an accomplishment to win the qualifier and an honor and thrill to play in the main event. However I am sure that if you asked him to compile a list of 64 players to fill out a roster for a 14.1 World Championship contest based solely on past accomplishments then I am 100% positive that he could easily fill that list with 64 names that DO NOT include his, yours, Megan's, Bo/Yu Ram's or the other guy you mentioned.

As for Thorsten Hohmann and his World Championship. Thorsten was not invited to the event. He earned his spot through his rankings in Germany and Europe, precluded by the many German and European titles he held. Then he had to play through the group stages and finally through the knockout stages in the toughest 9-ball tournament on the planet to achieve that which he was destined. Comparing the 9-Ball WC to the RG-Party is really not a good way to make a point in favor of the RG Club.

If RG's 14.1 event had followed the format of the 9-Ball WC in player selections then there would be no debate - except that the BCA allows the UPA to select the USA's participants for the 9-Ball WC and that still would have left Grady out Sorry Grady - Take it up with the BCA on that one.

I still don't understand why you keep on bashing Randy, atleast he is doing something for 14-1.

Your problem is obviously with the world governing body, WPA, who allows this championship to be a World Championship. In that, I actually agree with you. But I also understand Randy who invites the players he wants, aslong as the WPA accepts it. A lot of people would have done the same.

I hope that next year there are very few invites and more qualifiers for the events, and I hope that the WPA says that this is a criteria for letting it be sanctioned as a World Championship.

 

[corvette1340]

Maybe you will soon get those PMs about me, too, that you expressed previously when we engaged in a negative colloquy perviously on this forum. There are a selective few posters who enjoy sending PMs to stir the fires. I know because the ones they have sent them to, write to me to let me know who they are.

JAM

I still am not getting why you are so hostile about this. Why is it that you get into flame wars with a lot of different people on here when it is ok for people to have different opinions? Your biggest argument is usually that you are older than the other person and that your opinion seems to carry more weight than theirs, but in reality you are the one that seems to act younger and very childish at times. You either start name calling like you have me, or you simply say "I'm leaving". Now how mature is that? I don't want you to avoid me and if you will recall I have sided with you in the past and posted on more than one instance about mutual friends/players that we know and stories about them. I appologize if I have upset you so much that you can't see what is wrong with your responses to me in this thread. I am going to be the bigger person and leave it at that.

 

[JAM]

Once upon a time, the UPA -- under a different leadership -- hand-picked players to compete in the World Pool Championships. Players who were qualified and ranked HIGHER than the hand-picked players by the UPA, according to the UPA ranking system, were outraged at the selection process by the UPA.

Thereafter, fur future events, the promoters of the WPC established rules, set in stone, about who would be eligible to compete in the WPC.

JAM

 

[JAM]

I still am not getting why you are so hostile about this. Why is it that you get into flame wars with a lot of different people on here when it is ok for people to have different opinions? Your biggest argument is usually that you are older than the other person and that your opinion seems to carry more weight than theirs, but in reality you are the one that seems to act younger and very childish at times. You either start name calling like you have me, or you simply say "I'm leaving". Now how mature is that? I don't want you to avoid me and if you will recall I have sided with you in the past and posted on more than one instance about mutual friends/players that we know and stories about them. I appologize if I have upset you so much that you can't see what is wrong with your responses to me in this thread. I am going to be the bigger person and leave it at that.

Look, you have been BANNED from this forum for your endearing posting style.

You and I have had previous problems on this forum. You came onto this forum boasting about how much money you have and how Corey, et al., were your good friends, as if that made your words of wisdom more worthy than others.

If you want to continue this negativity with me, I will take it up with the moderator. I am trying to ignore you attempts to flame me. I would respectfully request that you not continue this.

JAM

 

[BVal]

Look, you have been BANNED from this forum for your endearing posting style.

You and I have had previous problems on this forum. You came onto this forum boasting about how much money you have and how Corey, et al., were your good friends, as if that made your words of wisdom more worthy than others.

If you want to continue this negativity with me, I will take it up with the moderator. I am trying to ignore you attempts to flame me. I would respectfully request that you not continue this.

JAM

I have read all the posts and I don't see what the big deal is and why this is considered flaming. Anyways I posted the same thing when I gave corvette positive rep.

BVal

 

[John Barton]

With all due respect John, who should decide? There is no true ranking system for 14.1 players currently. Far too few events.

I respectfully submit that the decision as to who should play in an Invitational event should be made by those producing the event, and putting up the prize money.

No matter who is, or who is not invited, somebody will be unhappy. If it were me (and it most clearly isn't), I would want the best players first and the most colorful players second, and the best women players third. Popular veteran players who might have a following would be given equal consideration as well.

I fully agree. However then label as an Invitational and not a World Championship.

I think it comes down to ego and branding. I would bet some serious money that if I tried to hold a tournament in the USA called the 14.1 World Championship then I would hear from someone's attorney claiming that they "own" that name. And I think we are all sensible enough to know that being known as the person who put on The World Championship does far more for one's ego than being know for the XX Invitiational.

Grady is right, calling it a World Championship and making it into an invitational and NOT inviting the best living straight pool players is a disgrace, regardless of how you feel about them personally. From everything we know about Mosconi he was apparently quite a handful to deal with when got to criticizing. Can you imagine for one second that any promoter dared to exclude him from any Championship event because they didn't like him personally? I don't think so.

Let's just call a spade a spade.

As a player Grady Matthews deserved a spot in the World Championships based on his stature.

As a promoter Grady Matthews has a longer and more distinguished track record than Randy Goldwater and so has every right to comment on the format of ANY tournament anywhere. He has earned that right.

Would you have ever denied a better player a spot in your events just so you could play in it? In my tournaments small and medium sized I would always give my spot to any player who wanted it.

Randy can get total props for putting on something. Any event is better than no event. Let's just please not fool ourselves into thinking that this was a true World Championship. It wasn't and is therefore open to the type of criticism that it is getting.

 

[corvette1340]

I have read all the posts and I don't see what the big deal is and why this is considered flaming. Anyways I posted the same thing when I gave corvette positive rep.

BVal

Thank you.