DO ANY SNOOKER TABLES HAVE DIAMONDS FOR MARKERS ON THEM?

[bbb]

billiard and pool tables have them and many players use them for "systems"
i dont recall ever seeing any rail markings on a snooker table although on another site someone mentioned seeing makers between the side pockets and the corners on snooker table in the USA.
as a corrollary question
is there a "system" the snooker players are taught to learn how to get around the table?
or is it all feel?

 

[George the Greek]

billiard and pool tables have them and many players use them for "systems"
i dont recall ever seeing any rail markings on a snooker table although on another site someone mentioned seeing makers between the side pockets and the corners on snooker table in the USA.
as a corrollary question
is there a "system" the snooker players are taught to learn how to get around the table?
or is it all feel?

I've never seen them on a 6x12 in Canada and I myself used to practice 1 to 5 rail spin shots and never worried if someone rolled up on me. Most escapes become second nature once you've played alot of snooker

 

[bbb]

I've never seen them on a 6x12 in Canada and I myself used to practice 1 to 5 rail spin shots and never worried if someone rolled up on me. Most escapes become second nature once you've played alot of snooker

i appreciate the reply

 

[Bob Jewett]

Traditionally, English tables had two markers on the side rails at the baulk line (flat of the D). Only the two, and they did not divide that section of the side rail evenly. I'm pretty sure no modern table is marked.

 

[bbb]

Traditionally, English tables had two markers on the side rails at the baulk line (flat of the D). Only the two, and they did not divide that section of the side rail evenly. I'm pretty sure no modern table is marked.

thanks bob

 

[drsnooker]

If I had to put money on it, I don't think any system would work on a snooker table. Cushions square up or slide that whatever math you try to do, it might not be accurate enough to actually intersect with the object ball when you have 72 square foot of real estate. On a pool table the diamond system gets you close but then you have to make adjustments based on speed and cushions etc etc. So as George says you really just have to go and play. Observe what happens and build that catalogue in your head.
I think it's the same reason most snooker players don't play bank shots (successfully) and that's just one cushion!

 

[Pin]

Honestly, I think if a major manufacturer had put diamonds on their tables, in the earlier days snooker or English billiards, probably enough people would have found them useful that it would have become standard.

Similarly, British pool tables (for 2" balls) don't have diamonds, because they're based on snooker tables (so far as I can tell). Tradition takes some overcoming.

You can see the same cultural difference in rounded or straight jaws.

 

[RabbiHippie]

If I had to put money on it, I don't think any system would work on a snooker table. Cushions square up or slide that whatever math you try to do, it might not be accurate enough to actually intersect with the object ball when you have 72 square foot of real estate. On a pool table the diamond system gets you close but then you have to make adjustments based on speed and cushions etc etc. So as George says you really just have to go and play. Observe what happens and build that catalogue in your head.
I think it's the same reason most snooker players don't play bank shots (successfully) and that's just one cushion!

Would the difference be attributable to snooker tables having napped cloth?

 

[Bob Jewett]

If I had to put money on it, I don't think any system would work on a snooker table. Cushions square up or slide that whatever math you try to do, it might not be accurate enough to actually intersect with the object ball when you have 72 square foot of real estate. On a pool table the diamond system gets you close but then you have to make adjustments based on speed and cushions etc etc. So as George says you really just have to go and play. Observe what happens and build that catalogue in your head.
I think it's the same reason most snooker players don't play bank shots (successfully) and that's just one cushion!

I think that systems would work fine on a diamond-marked snooker table but the counts would be slightly different. Obviously, one-cushion kicks are close to the standard 1:2 ratio. I think corner-5 would translate fine but the third-rail targets will be different. I wouldn't be surprised if the plus-2 system turned out to be more consistent on a snooker table than a pool or carom table.

I have heard snooker rails described as "more accurate" than pool rails but without marking diamonds, that would be hard to measure.

I'm not saying that diamonds should be added to snooker tables. I'm just saying that there is nothing inherent in a snooker table that would prevent (modified, adjusted) diamond systems from working.

 

[bbb]

if anyone has access to a snooker table
place the cue ball in the corner and aim midway at the oppsite long rail between the side pocket and the diagonal corner pocker
use 2 tips high and one tip side and let us know where the ball lands on the 3rd and fourth rail
ie middle ,.....upper 1/3 ......lower 1/4,,,,,,you get the idea

 

[bbb]

i found this youtube video from barry starks where he discusses using certain spots on the table as markers instead of diamonds on the rails to site thru from certain areas to hit a target on a distant rail or go 3 rails from corner to corner
he mentions the usefullness of billiards to help your snooker game and mentions joe davis as the one who used his billiard skills in snooker
i thought this thread would be a good place to post this video

 

[Bob Jewett]

Of course when Barry says "billiards" he means the 3-ball game on the snooker table and not the "billiards" that has no pockets.

 

[bbb]

Of course when Barry says "billiards" he means the 3-ball game on the snooker table and not the "billiards" that has no pockets.

I did not know that bob
thanks

 

[snookered_again]

I just acquired a snooker table made by Brunswick Balk Collender , from about 1908.. it was at the time offered with or without pockets, "pool" or Carom" respectively. I'm not sure if 8 ball or 9 ball was common or invented then. I think snooker was just becoming popular.. others will know this history and sequence better.

I had wondered how the term "diamond" began, as they are usually round dots, I began imagining a really expensive tables with real diamonds set into the rails.. I dont think that's the case...

but on this table, which is a pool table with 6 pockets, and rounded cushions which I'd call snooker style , not 8 ball, each rail has 3 and they are diamond shaped, likely bits of ivory, that's inset into the rails.

insetting a diamond shape means precise cutting, I think most manufacturers used round dots as they were less labor to fit into the rails, as opposed to taking a chisel and marking a square out and removing wood to fit a diamond shape. simply a shallow blind hole is drilled and the stock may be round so turned to size on a lathe. easier joinery, faster to do , less to go wrong with that sort of fitting. fitting a diamond into a rail is precise handwork and could go all wrong with a slip up of the chisel. .

some might use them for more advanced purposes. I can think of two reasons. correct me if I'm wrong, my experience is limited and I'm learning, so it may or may not make sense from a more experienced mind.

one is that if you draw a visual line from the pocket nearest the bottom of the table to the diamond nearest the head of the table, and an object ball lands on that line, and the object and cue ball are the same distance from the same side rail , then it becomes a half ball shot to make the bottom corner, and some may aim for the edge of the ball as a visual reference.

another way is just merely using the diamond as visual reference. So I want to hit a ball off a side rail, ( lets say I'm snookered) I may go look from the opposite side of the table from where I plan to shot to examine the angle.. I may choose a spot to hit the rail at. when I return to the side I'm shooting from I may estimate that spot as lets say "two inches from that diamond" one might place a chalk on the rail and use that as a visual reference but that may appear a bit immature.. sure I could use a mirror and a laser to plan out a shot or mark the felt with chalk, but that would get ruled out pretty fast as a acceptable practice.. perhaps fine when practicing alone..

If I were playing partners ( 2 teams of 2 at the snooker table) then my partner may also give me a suggestion , such as: " try to Hit the rail 2 inches past that diamond. with just a bit of left siding"

the 1920's 6 x 12 I play on only has one diamond on each rail, this older one((approx 1908) has 3 on each rail.
the reason I don't think of the diamonds as 8 ball related is because I think they may predate the popularity of 8 ball, but that said, I may be proven wrong and need to learn more of the early history of 8 and 9 or 10 ball..
I plan to post pics of my 1908-ish table. I previously restored a 1960's Brunswick that is about 3x6 and this is a slate , about 9.5 feet long.. now I'm trying to fit this one into my living room which is a bit tight, so I might have to shorten some cues but should still be nice to practice on. I just joined, this is my first post here. Looks lime a great place to learn more.

some are pretty good at making shots like a 3 banks side, perhaps use them for a visual cue. I still find shots like that quite unpredicatble due to inexperience but see others doing it quite intentionally and fairly consistently..

 

[snookered_again]

So.. about the diamonds. I figured the ones on my table are ivory, but I found an interesting reference here:

"The commemorative antique replica Exposition Novelty boasts of magnificent craftsmanship through the use of sapele rails, solid white oak legs, a variety of beautifully grained veneers, solid brass rosettes and rail sights made of Asian Water Buffalo bone."

I think perhaps this replica table, ( link below) used "Asian water buffalo bone" and not ivory because Ivory is prohibited, so if Brunswick used real ivory for the reproduction , it might be illegal to sell the table due to the ivory ban.

pretty cool that this table is very similar to my newly aquired table from around 1908 , other than the fact the veneer is a mess on mine (some is missing). It was sprayed over with heavily toned shellac. I pondered replacing all the veneer. I think I'll just try using first.

I'm capable of replacing all the veneer and doing proper refinishing, but that's a lot of hours.
at least they used shellac and not polyurethane or paint , I can remove it easily. That old honduran mahogany veneer might not be easy to get. I have a big older plank of it, but its banned now too so Im not sure if the veneer is available for that species. It's different from the mahogany available now. I'm not sure what the frame is , its a heavy wood. maple maybe? My dad was an experienced cabinetmaker who learned from an old english cabinet maker in the 50's who reproduced english antiques.. He showed me how to use a chemical called Potassium permanganate
to dye the old mahogany, to bring out the ribbon and gives it a more reddish look.

here is where the "Asian water buffalo bone" is mentioned.. The term made me think of the flintstones ;-)

Brunswick Billiards Resurects 19th Century Design, Elegance With Special Edition 1878 Exposition Novelty Table - News - AZBILLIARDS.COM

John D. Rockefeller founds the Standard Oil Company; Thomas Edison turns on the first functioning light bulb, and writers such as Mark Twain, Louisa May Alcott and Henry James publish some of their finest works. During this same time, 1870 to 1880, Brunswick Billiards was impressing connoisseurs acr

www.azbilliards.com

 

[RabbiHippie]

I just acquired a snooker table made by Brunswick Balk Collender , from about 1908.. it was at the time offered with or without pockets, "pool" or Carom" respectively. I'm not sure if 8 ball or 9 ball was common or invented then. I think snooker was just becoming popular.. others will know this history and sequence better.

I had wondered how the term "diamond" began, as they are usually round dots, I began imagining a really expensive tables with real diamonds set into the rails.. I dont think that's the case...

but on this table, which is a pool table with 6 pockets, and rounded cushions which I'd call snooker style , not 8 ball, each rail has 3 and they are diamond shaped, likely bits of ivory, that's inset into the rails.

insetting a diamond shape means precise cutting, I think most manufacturers used round dots as they were less labor to fit into the rails, as opposed to taking a chisel and marking a square out and removing wood to fit a diamond shape. simply a shallow blind hole is drilled and the stock may be round so turned to size on a lathe. easier joinery, faster to do , less to go wrong with that sort of fitting. fitting a diamond into a rail is precise handwork and could go all wrong with a slip up of the chisel. .

some might use them for more advanced purposes. I can think of two reasons. correct me if I'm wrong, my experience is limited and I'm learning, so it may or may not make sense from a more experienced mind.

one is that if you draw a visual line from the pocket nearest the bottom of the table to the diamond nearest the head of the table, and an object ball lands on that line, and the object and cue ball are the same distance from the same side rail , then it becomes a half ball shot to make the bottom corner, and some may aim for the edge of the ball as a visual reference.

another way is just merely using the diamond as visual reference. So I want to hit a ball off a side rail, ( lets say I'm snookered) I may go look from the opposite side of the table from where I plan to shot to examine the angle.. I may choose a spot to hit the rail at. when I return to the side I'm shooting from I may estimate that spot as lets say "two inches from that diamond" one might place a chalk on the rail and use that as a visual reference but that may appear a bit immature.. sure I could use a mirror and a laser to plan out a shot or mark the felt with chalk, but that would get ruled out pretty fast as a acceptable practice.. perhaps fine when practicing alone..

If I were playing partners ( 2 teams of 2 at the snooker table) then my partner may also give me a suggestion , such as: " try to Hit the rail 2 inches past that diamond. with just a bit of left siding"

the 1920's 6 x 12 I play on only has one diamond on each rail, this older one((approx 1908) has 3 on each rail.
the reason I don't think of the diamonds as 8 ball related is because I think they may predate the popularity of 8 ball, but that said, I may be proven wrong and need to learn more of the early history of 8 and 9 or 10 ball..
I plan to post pics of my 1908-ish table. I previously restored a 1960's Brunswick that is about 3x6 and this is a slate , about 9.5 feet long.. now I'm trying to fit this one into my living room which is a bit tight, so I might have to shorten some cues but should still be nice to practice on. I just joined, this is my first post here. Looks lime a great place to learn more.

some are pretty good at making shots like a 3 banks side, perhaps use them for a visual cue. I still find shots like that quite unpredicatble due to inexperience but see others doing it quite intentionally and fairly consistently..

Is your 1908 table 10' or 12' long?

American pool tables at that time were typically 10' long--same as the American snooker tables that were most common in the United States. Carom billiard tables were also 10' long. 8-Ball was a fairly new game in 1908. In competition, the most played game before 1912 was Continuous Pool which was like Straight Pool but with a wide-open "smash" break instead of leaving the last ball of the rack on the table to continue your run. Jerome Keough came up with that innovation and 14.1 Continuous or Straight Pool replaced the older Continuous Pool by 1912.

Carom billiards was the most popular version of cue sports until the 1930's. Snooker and pool were about equally popular in the United States. The largest room in Oklahoma City had nine carom tables, eight snooker tables and seven pool tables in the late 1920's.

 

[snookered_again]

thanks for that info. no it is not a 12 foot, it may be a ten foot or maybe 9 or 10 foot. I think it's about 100 inches...

I'm currently trying to get some friends to help move the slates and super heavy baseframe in the house and then I can begin leveling etc.

The table I have is very similar looking to the ones on this page:

The Newport: Antique Brunswick Pool/Billiards Table for Sale

The Newport from Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. is an antique billiards table with an massive design, similar to the Saratoga in style, with four robust, thick legs. It is a good serviceable pool table that has been restored by Billiard Restoration Service. Call or email for pricing & availability.

www.billiardrestoration.com

I have yet to ID the model with any certainty , but maybe similar to this:
I may have some embellishment missing. I can see some screw holes and imprints around the bottom edge. I'll have a closer look and get pics yet. these imprints may help nail down the model and year.

many of the era seem to have exposed bolts with fancy heads that hold the slate to the rails, mine has covers to hide these bolts. the bolts are fairly plain and require a pin wrench with two pins. I can make a tool for that, I managed to get them apart for moving by other means.

from what I can find it looks like the table was available with or without pockets.

here's something failry similar:

Table - 1908 | Brunswick Billiards

I found reference of a short lived manufacturer in texas, who had made a similar table and a note that Brunswick Balke Collender bought the company so perhaps there is a relationship between that company and it's machinery and the ones Brunswick Balke Collender made.
I removed a bit of the shellac that has been sprayed over, and found it has some mahogany veneer. I believe there were different options of veneer , at least oak or mahogany.

my plan is to set it up and use it now , Id really love to do the "proper" wood restoration it deserves , It will involve complete stripping, replacing all or part of the veneer. I think I can break the hide glue bond and remove all that veneer pretty easily but stripping it is just the start.

I think the veneer was coming loose and respraying the whole thing was the way it was covered up just to make it halfway presentable.

i need to read more about the history in the advertising it seems to make a definition of Carom as being no pockets but I guess there is also "english billiards" or carom billiards or english pocket billiards. I need ot get more familiar with the terminology to differentiate properly.

my main interest is in becoming better at snooker and playing some of theos carom games will also help my cue ball control and get me more used to making carom shots. Id like to be better able to imagine the intent of this table just to reflect upon what it was originally designed for.

I believe it predates the aramyth balls. Im guessing they would be 2" balls. I did not get any accessories.. I have a set of older balls that probably have a lot less bounce, but would perhaps be interesting.. they are a bit more "clay like" Probably more authentic to the era. I think most would want to actually use the more modern Aramyth ones.

 

[RabbiHippie]

thanks for that info. no it is not a 12 foot, it may be a ten foot or maybe 9 or 10 foot. I think it's about 100 inches...

I'm currently trying to get some friends to help move the slates and super heavy baseframe in the house and then I can begin leveling etc.

The table I have is very similar looking to the ones on this page:

The Newport: Antique Brunswick Pool/Billiards Table for Sale

The Newport from Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. is an antique billiards table with an massive design, similar to the Saratoga in style, with four robust, thick legs. It is a good serviceable pool table that has been restored by Billiard Restoration Service. Call or email for pricing & availability.

www.billiardrestoration.com

I have yet to ID the model with any certainty , but maybe similar to this:
I may have some embellishment missing. I can see some screw holes and imprints around the bottom edge. I'll have a closer look and get pics yet. these imprints may help nail down the model and year.

many of the era seem to have exposed bolts with fancy heads that hold the slate to the rails, mine has covers to hide these bolts. the bolts are fairly plain and require a pin wrench with two pins. I can make a tool for that, I managed to get them apart for moving by other means.

from what I can find it looks like the table was available with or without pockets.

here's something failry similar:

Table - 1908 | Brunswick Billiards

I found reference of a short lived manufacturer in texas, who had made a similar table and a note that Brunswick Balke Collender bought the company so perhaps there is a relationship between that company and it's machinery and the ones Brunswick Balke Collender made.
I removed a bit of the shellac that has been sprayed over, and found it has some mahogany veneer. I believe there were different options of veneer , at least oak or mahogany.

my plan is to set it up and use it now , Id really love to do the "proper" wood restoration it deserves , It will involve complete stripping, replacing all or part of the veneer. I think I can break the hide glue bond and remove all that veneer pretty easily but stripping it is just the start.

I think the veneer was coming loose and respraying the whole thing was the way it was covered up just to make it halfway presentable.

i need to read more about the history in the advertising it seems to make a definition of Carom as being no pockets but I guess there is also "english billiards" or carom billiards or english pocket billiards. I need ot get more familiar with the terminology to differentiate properly.

my main interest is in becoming better at snooker and playing some of theos carom games will also help my cue ball control and get me more used to making carom shots. Id like to be better able to imagine the intent of this table just to reflect upon what it was originally designed for.

I believe it predates the aramyth balls. Im guessing they would be 2" balls. I did not get any accessories.. I have a set of older balls that probably have a lot less bounce, but would perhaps be interesting.. they are a bit more "clay like" Probably more authentic to the era. I think most would want to actually use the more modern Aramyth ones.

Hang on to those balls and consult with someone who knows how to care for them if possible. Clay balls from that era are collectible. I would set them aside and avoid using them until you know what they're worth.

 

[snookered_again]

is there a way to determine what ball size is correct? when it's together I can of course just bounce the balls and see if they launch or seem to be driven downwards.
I know there is a relationship between rail height and ball size. the rails are snooker style. in other words rounded near the pockets and not triangular, I think the rubber will be sort of L shaped. The cloth and rails look real nice so Ill try them as they are but I'm unsure of the age, It could have been covered up for 30 years basically.

I did get the frame of the table which is not made to disassemble into my living room. WOW what a heavy brute that frame is. I mounted the legs, installed the cross rails, checked level. it has a slight bend overall, maybe 1/16 end to end.. the middle is higher so that's ok, easier to deal with than low in the middle. I can level the middle slate and then shim and level the ends to suit.

I transported the slates from my van onto the front lawn by myself with rollers and planks and determination. I covered them up and ready to go up the steps and into the house. I might need help to lift the slates.

the 1" slates have backer frames, like picture frames , with biscuits or mortise and tenon joints. Some parts were a bit rotten and punky so Ill fabricate what I need to. all the parts have matching numbers. can the numbers give tell of the date of manufacture somehow?

I had to think why the table frame looked solid so why would the backers be rotting? nothing else seemed water damaged really. i reasoned that maybe the slates were stored for some part of it's life on a damp concrete floor. I'll plan to rip some good dry maple to the exact same dimensions and just replace what I need to. near the backer boards there is a repwood form to shape where the felt stretches over near the pockets. It basically hide glue and wood dust that was formed to shape. Ill try to keep as much of that as I can. I can probably use epoxy and wood dust to form any missing bits. one was a little broken but I have the piece so I can glue it back together. I can make all new wood parts if necessary but most might be ok. If it's not too bad maybe I should keep what I can as it has the serial numbers stamped in which is part of it's originality..
someone sprayed the whole exterior of the frame with a primer or something , it looks like particleboard but it was some sort of spray coating, and they put dark shellac over it. whatever it is it does dissolve with thinners or stripper.. so it wasn't' a huge mess like polyurethane or paint would be.
there is mahogany veneer over all the sides of the table under the finish job/ I removed a patch to have a look at what I was into..
I considered stripping it and repairing any missing veneer or just re veneering the whole thing, legs too, but it looks like a long refinishing job to do it right. I decided I'll just try using it for now.. the wood finish wont affect the way it works and the top rails look nice. Maybe I can take all that on when I'm retired.

I dont know about the value. there are a lot of big 12' tables around here being offered for free because real estate values are completely nuts and few have rooms bg enough.. I felt this one was a bit special.
I love antiques so it fits into my theme, and I like playing snooker on a larger Burroughs and watts table a friend has which is about 10 years later It has similar style rails. the pockets have a lift lever thing so you can draw the balls out of the net from underneath. mine just has leather reproduction nets. That table has iron backers on the rails, they are very heavy in themselves whereas this one has bolts that tie the slate to the rails instead. all that super heavy structure should make it quite silent and nice to play on. I want to learn more about carom billiards, or english billiards too so it seems good for that.

in looking at similar pictures most similar tables have fancy embellishments along the rails in the location of the slate bolts. this one has covers so I do not know if it had any fancy bits there or if they are lost. some tables seem to have some egg and dart or similar fanciness along the bottom inch or so . If mine had that it is lost or removed. the shape resembles all the other similar models from around 1908/ It might be a newport or wellington, Its similar. I dont think the legs have the extra bolts which was a way of making a differentiation.

I think the frame style stemmed from a short lived texas manufacturer that Brunswick-Balke-Colleneder bought out. I'm not sure where they were all manufactured but I did find a pic with that Texas manufacturer's name on it and that picture looks the same as the one at the top of the page. here:

The Newport: Antique Brunswick Pool/Billiards Table for Sale

The Newport from Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. is an antique billiards table with an massive design, similar to the Saratoga in style, with four robust, thick legs. It is a good serviceable pool table that has been restored by Billiard Restoration Service. Call or email for pricing & availability.

www.billiardrestoration.com

perhaps the machinery was moved to a Brunswick Balke Collender factory?

there is some good info on those Burroughes and watts tables here :

Burroughes & Watts Canada , Antique Billiards & Snooker Tables

The pioneers of pool and builders of billiards! Burroughes and Watts have had an illustrious history stemming back to 1836 in England at the cusp of the Victorian era. Their history as a part of the early heritage of billiards and snooker sports is the stuff of legends. Even though…

www.custombilliards.com

 

[mr3cushion]

I've seen the video by Barry, very interesting.

Every cue game table is, "Twice as Long as it is Wide." i.e. A 5'x10', 4.5'x9', 8'x4'...

The simplest way is to divide the table into 2 'equal squares.' Then divide that 'rectangle' in half to get a visual of the angle into the first cushion.

Just with a little 'common sense of Geometry' it will become clear without a so called, 'Diamond System.'