Do handicapped leagues & tourneys hinder personal advanment?
- Thread starter Stones
- Start date
I'm not the best shooter by any means but this isn't always true. I catch crap for it because I play my best no matter who I'm shooting and how bad they are. I've been told I'm showing off and I'm unsportsmanlike because I am always looking for the run or playing defensive.
That being said, I still remember my first tournament and I was shaking like a leaf on my first run because I had never played under pressure.
Well of course they will.. People invest a lot of money in time trying to get that almighty trip to vegas that the apa floats in your face. They don't want to screw up them and there teams chances of going to vegas. That's the point..They shouldn't have to choose but apa forces you into making that choice because of there 23 rule.
So let me get this straight.... This thread isn't about ALL handicapped leagues and tourneys hindering personal advancement, ONLY the APA doing the hindering?
Ah yes, that's right, APA=bad.
Once again, my point still stands. The APA isn't forcing anyone to stop trying to get better. If anyone feels the need to cheat in order to get what you yourself have said a bunch of times is a crappy trip to Vegas, then they probably won't improve if they played in any other handicapped league, either. They obviously care more about winning than about improving their game. They will want whatever carrot that particular league floats to their players, and won't want to jeopardize their handicap in order to try and get it. Regardless of the 23 rule or not.
"People invest a lot of money in time trying to get that almighty trip to vegas." Really? No, people spend a relatively small amount of money each week for a nights entertainment in a competitive activity, as well as have a few laughs and a few beers. The percentage of people who play APA that actually go to Vegas is rather small. The odds of going each year is appropriately small. Are you suggesting that most people that play would rather game the system for a miniscule chance at a crappy trip that is going to cost them money, than to actually try to get better at the game? Among those who actually try to play the game, not the casual weekly banger who is only out for a nights entertainment. (Those folks don't care much if they improve, and that's ok.)
THAT is really the bottom line. The 23 rule is there to keep a beginners league a beginners league, and yes, it does spur growth by having players recruit more players.
Anyone that wants to improve their game will do so. Because they want to improve their game. If they are more interested in gaming the system, they will game the system. Choice.
Last edited:
Joe T
Well-known member
I didn't join the conversion in hopes of bashing anyone. Handicaps are here to stay and I was hoping this discussing might lead to some better ways for us to use them. Maybe find some ways to inspire, motivate or reward players for moving up the ranks other than the obvious feelings of accomplishment.
Let's take focus off the 23 thing for a sec and think more about weekly or regional tournament atmosphere. How can we promote and reward improvement?
Let's take focus off the 23 thing for a sec and think more about weekly or regional tournament atmosphere. How can we promote and reward improvement?
exactly...
I do think it shouldn't be a crazy handicap though.
I think the Mezz West State Tour that Oscar is running is ideal. The handicaps aren't too crazy but at the same time it gives players enough of an advantage to make it fair.
A b player isn't likely to take out a touring pro but an A player playing a good match has a chance without it being unfair in their favor or in a player's interest to sand bag.
Jaden
I do think it shouldn't be a crazy handicap though.
I think the Mezz West State Tour that Oscar is running is ideal. The handicaps aren't too crazy but at the same time it gives players enough of an advantage to make it fair.
A b player isn't likely to take out a touring pro but an A player playing a good match has a chance without it being unfair in their favor or in a player's interest to sand bag.
Jaden
No any league with a cap on a handy Cap on the team total does (including tap) my experience until last night was only with the Apa. your wonderful apa insists that the equalizer makes every match equal ! Lol so what does it matter? Let anyone play on any team but they know just like you and I do that just like the Apa the equalizer is a bunch of crap! For some people going to Vegas is a big thing. Especially when it's pretty much all our local Apa offers. No regional or cash tournament. It's Vegas or bust.
It's not "my wonderful APA", I just like giving it a fair representation here.
And the old "equalizer makes every match equal" argument remains silly. You are a SL9. You know for a fact that it's not an "equal" match between you and and lower level player, despite the spot you have to give them. You will beat them virtually every time, unless you have a really bad night or the other guy shoots way over his head. Or some strange luck, which does happen occasionally. Perhaps the mid-to-upper skill level players are closer to an "equal" match with the spot, but the really good players are always the favorite in any match. Regardless of the spot.
The Equalizer is a poor choice for a name for just this reason. Folks want to take it to the extreme and insist that it's supposed to be an equal match, a coin flip. Which isn't the case, of course. It merely gives the lesser player a reasonable chance against a much better player, if they play well. And if the better player doesn't play really well at the same time. That's the reality of it, and it does work pretty well, given the scope of the enterprise.
Sorry Joe, I'll stop here. Trob and I go back and forth on this, with no hard feelings. (At least on my part.) Just a regular exercise when the APA comes up.
I still think that it all boils down to the player, and what he wants out of his pool experience. If he wants to get better, truly get better, he will. I want to. The damned handicap isn't stopping me, its my lack of time spent working on it that is stopping me. Another player on my own team is also looking forward to "going up", it is a mark of improvement. There is another player in our division who went up from a SL6 to a SL7 earlier this year, first in 9-ball and then in 8-ball the next session. He was really proud of his accomplishment, and we all congratulated him on his accomplishment.
(Yes, his 8-ball team has broken up this session, split into two teams. It wasn't just him going up that caused that, over the last couple of years there were several on their team that had truly improved, and there is one more who is due to go up a skill level any time, too. There was no *****ing, no whining, no crying. They couldn't field their team well, so they split into two teams, brought in a few friends and player or two that had been on other teams, and life goes on.)
If the player on my team goes up, we will still be able to field the team. I somehow go up as well, that will make it more difficult, but we can manage it. If it becomes unmanageable, we'll work it out and change things up. There are a lot of people that play pool here, even in our little podunk town. Mixing teams up, joining another team, adding a few new players...it works.
And we haven't had a team from our division go to Vegas in the five years that I've played APA here. But we have a vibrant, healthy and fun division, at least here in our little world.
Jeeze, look at me go. Again, I'm sorry Joe. I'll stop now and leave it to the others. All I know is that you don't have to worry about the handicap and improve in the APA, at least here.
We do not have APA leagues up here, at least not that I know of, only BCA which sounds like a good thing. The only time the handicap affects my game is if I am the last shooter for the round and say I need to get 6 balls off of the table to win our team match. The only way it affects my game is I may choose to shoot a hanger instead of going for a tougher shot to run out the table. I may or may not win the game but it insures that our team wins the match. I have never played in an APA league, but from what I have heard about them in these forums so far as far as the 23 rule, sandbagging, LOs taking an unfair share of league dues to run the league and turn a personal profit, etc... I would never join an APA league. Most of our local tournaments are not handicapped, even though I am usually playing higher ranked players it does not stop me from entering these tournaments. If you want to get better not only do you need to practice but you also need to pay your dues in competition, take some beatings so to say as far as your "finishing school" goes to earn your masters in pool.:thumbup:
Banks
Banned
The fact is that most people won't ever reach 'master' level in pool. A few people take advantage of handicap systems, but most are just bitter that there are so many people taking part in them and really don't care if the "good" players play with them. Just listen to how many "good" players whine about the 23 rule. It isn't because they don't want to play APA, but because they have a hard time fitting into a team.
Joe Tucker and Mark Griffin are doing great things that don't involve handicaps - or at least not so much in BCA's case. Most of the rest just like to complain about people not doing anything for the "good" players - because apparently most of those players can't/won't do anything for themselves. I'm trying to do something for players in my area, but between here and elsewhere, I really don't care if my plans work out for the "good" players, because it seems that most of the time it's not worth dealing with the bs.
I started with handicap play, still enjoy it and play at a fair level, despite whatever excuses people throw around in this thread or others. May as well go chat it up in the Aiming section if I wanted people telling me what to do.
I know I'm late into this thread and I haven't read a single reply....
That being said, you are the only hindrance to your own personal advancement. What I mean is, if you really want to advance you're going too regardless of whether you play in handicapped leagues and tournaments.
Blaming some outside source for your lack of development is like saying I didn't do well in school because it was sunny outside.
It comes down to personal responsibility.
In my area pool isn't as great even though one of the best players currently playing ( or that has ever played ) is from here. We only have one APA league and I don't play that. I play a league where we give balls each game. In my opinion there is no reason to get better unless you want to. As I stated, I want to and I will but I will say there isn't much incentive in it. The tournaments in the area commonly run 3 or 4 divisions. It's either Open, A, B and C and some are Open, B and C. Of course every sport the lower level is going to be where the most players tend to be. You have a mix of new players and players that just play for fun with friends and don't wish to take it any further. Instead of moving money around in most of the tournaments it's based off of number of enteries per division, so of course the C division always pays better then any other division. I've brought this up numerous times in my area that moving the money around would be the better choice because every tournament you hear about teams that "sandbag" and sadly I understand why they do. Why wouldn't they play down where the competition isn't as good ( giving them a better chance to win ) and making more if they do win. It's hard to encourage a team to play up when the payout is half of what it would be if they played down.