Do you think that Fedor Gorst is as strong or stronger then Josh Filler?

[animatedvmaker]

Justin is the man. This kid can play. Some of these players have great breaks. Justins break is also good but that is what keeps these guys in the game. The Break . The tighter the table the more the advantage is for Justin. Just my opinion. Played some when Justin was younger in Granite City Ill. Doug Patricks poolhall back in around 2007. Justin was pretty young back then and I told him one night in back of the poolhall, Young man, if you ever quit those darn cigerettes you could be a champion. He sure proved me wrong. As far as I know he is still smoking. Haven't seen him in a few years so maybe he did quit. But I don't care who he plays. Super tight pocket and nobody has to like playing Justin. Coming from someone that just know. And I will be putting my money where my mouth is as usual when Justin plays someone.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense, because he only wants to play on a table with very tight pockets.

He now has an 8 ball match planned, with Filler, happening soon, in Louisville. Just read it on his facebook page.

 

[alstl]

Ban the jump cue. Hold a big tournament. Watch who makes the finals. It won't be some of the names we are discussing.

Kicking is becoming a lost art.

 

[sjm]

Ban the jump cue. Hold a big tournament. Watch who makes the finals. It won't be some of the names we are discussing.

Kicking is becoming a lost art.

No jump cues are allowed at the Derby City 9-ball event. This year's final was Filler vs Van Cortezza. Well, just one of the names we're discussing.

By the way, the absence of the jump cue is one of the reasons Derby City is such a great event, completely dispelling the myth advanced by some that nine ball is less ex citing without the jump cue.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Only my opinion, but if you had a "drop from the bucket break", alternate or winner break, and played on a pyramid table (tightest pockets of all the games), Filler would still beat Bergman in 8 ball/9 ball/10 ball by a good margin.

 

[evergruven]

Excellent post and exactly right. It is only his break that holds Justin back from winning some of the biggest titles.

I've contended before on this forum that Bergman has the best after-the-break skills at nine ball of all the American players, SVB included. Of course, it's pretty close. Even though Justin is the better pattern player, his runout skills are a bit below Shane's but his defense and kicking are way better than those of Shane.

You're also right about the tighter table helping Justin's cause, because super-tight pockets place a greater premium on pattern play, defense and kicking, so that plays right in to Justin's hand.

Other than Shane, Justin and Skyler are probably the only two Americans I'd rate in the world's top 25 players. I'd rate both in the low 20's.

the break is an amazing shot to consider
it's where the game starts, and for many
where it ends
at the highest level
players are often separated by one shot
and it's usually the break
amazing

re: gorst v. filler
gorst is a terrific player
but josh is a natural
when he gets going
it looks like his eyes are closed
and the balls are looking at him..

 

[ChrisinNC]

He also beat Filler 11-3 in this match

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQa1_P4PXfU

But these are short race tournaments, and that much was 2 years ago. Filler is much improved since then.

Anything race to 25 or greater, I would make Filler a significant favorite over Gorst.

You don’t think Gorst has improved in the last two years as well? If I’m not mistaken, he’s as young or possibly even younger than Filler.

 

[sjm]

You don’t think Gorst has improved in the last two years as well? If I’m not mistaken, he’s as young or possibly even younger than Filler.

Gorst won't be twenty until May. I'd say he and Filler have improved equally over the past two years, and both are elite players.

 

[BeiberLvr]

You don’t think Gorst has improved in the last two years as well? If I’m not mistaken, he’s as young or possibly even younger than Filler.

I'm sure he has.

Filler still owns him in a longer set.

 

[Woodshaft]

Bergman wants to play Filler only in long 8-ball sets because Bergman can slow the game down to a chess match, which gives him a (very) slight chance of winning.
Filler is the best pure shooter in the world. He plays at a fast pace and puts the balls in the holes. Nobody can beat Filler in a race to 100 in 9-ball, and only SVB and JL Chang could have a chance at (no shot clock)10-ball.
Filler is the best shot-clock player in the game, too. JL Chang couldn't beat him in any long race on a fast shot clock, and SVB would have his hands full.
IMO, Filler is the only player in the world that doesn't need a spot from ANYONE in a long race in any major game, except one-pocket.
He's the best. And he'll stay the best as long as he desires.
Oh, and Gorst is a fine improving talent, but not even top ten in the green room- yet.

 

[jay helfert]

Bergman wants to play Filler only in long 8-ball sets because Bergman can slow the game down to a chess match, which gives him a (very) slight chance of winning.
Filler is the best pure shooter in the world. He plays at a fast pace and puts the balls in the holes. Nobody can beat Filler in a race to 100 in 9-ball, and only SVB and JL Chang could have a chance at (no shot clock)10-ball.
Filler is the best shot-clock player in the game, too. JL Chang couldn't beat him in any long race on a fast shot clock, and SVB would have his hands full.
IMO, Filler is the only player in the world that doesn't need a spot from ANYONE in a long race in any major game, except one-pocket.
He's the best. And he'll stay the best as long as he desires.
Oh, and Gorst is a fine improving talent, but not even top ten in the green room- yet.

I've seen so many come and go. Let's see if he's still around and winning ten years from now. Guys like Shane, Dennis and Alex have shown longevity in their careers. It remains to be seen whether Mr. Filler is still pounding those balls in when he is 30 and 35.

Wu was the GREATEST at age 16 and fell off the map by age 20. He did make a nice comeback and has shown spurts of his old strength at times, but he is not the same dominant player he once was. He looks great one day and average the next.

 

[sjm]

I've seen so many come and go. Let's see if he's still around and winning ten years from now. Guys like Shane, Dennis and Alex have shown longevity in their careers. It remains to be seen whether Mr. Filler is still pounding those balls in when he is 30 and 35.

Wu was the GREATEST at age 16 and fell off the map by age 20. He did make a nice comeback and has shown spurts of his old strength at times, but he is not the same dominant player he once was. He looks great one day and average the next.

I've seen many come and go, too, but I haven't seen a guy with Filler's achievements at a similar age, and don't think it has ever happened. I know you're older than me, Jay, but I just haven't seen anyone achieve at this rate and that includes Wu, who's not even in the conversation.

If I allow myself to include the World 10-ball Championship as a major, then the majors (that is, the five major WPA titles) in our sport are:

China Open
US Open 9-ball
WPA World 9-ball
All Japan Championships
WPA World 10-ball

Filler has won three of the majors (China, US Open, World 9-ball) and has a silver at the World 10-ball Championships. He also has won a silver at the Derby City 9-ball, a bronze at the International 9-ball, and won the high run prize at Derby City in 2019 with a 285 on a tight table.

Sorry, my friend, but, unless it was during the straight pool era, you've never seen anything like Filler. Pool is in completely new territory here with a 22 year old whose resume already exceeds that of all but a handful of those that have played in the nine ball era. In my opinion, if Filler dies tomorrow, he'll still deserves induction in the BCA Hall of Fame. He'd be in the Harold Worst category of one who had a short, but unfathomably spectacular, career.

If Josh falls off a cliff, which we must all concede is possible, it won't be a same old same old story but a very new story, for no young man has risen, or even come close to have risen, to such lofty heights early in their career.

 

[jay helfert]

I've seen many come and go, too, but I haven't seen a guy with Filler's achievements at a similar age, and don't think it has ever happened. I know you're older than me, Jay, but I just haven't seen anyone achieve at this rate and that includes Wu, who's not even in the conversation.

If I allow myself to include the World 10-ball Championship as a major, then the majors (that is, the five major WPA titles) in our sport are:

China Open
US Open 9-ball
WPA World 9-ball
All Japan Championships
WPA World 10-ball

Filler has won three of the majors (China, US Open, World 9-ball) and has a silver at the World 10-ball Championships. He also has won a silver at the Derby City 9-ball, a bronze at the International 9-ball, and won the high run prize at Derby City in 2019 with a 285 on a tight table.

Sorry, my friend, but, unless it was during the straight pool era, you've never seen anything like Filler. Pool is in completely new territory here with a 22 year old whose resume already exceeds that of all but a handful of those that have played in the nine ball era. In my opinion, if Filler dies tomorrow, he'll still deserves induction in the BCA Hall of Fame. He'd be in the Harold Worst category of one who had a short, but unfathomably spectacular, career.

If Josh falls off a cliff, which we must all concede is possible, it won't be a same old same old story but a very new story, for no young man has risen, or even come close to have risen, to such lofty heights early in their career.

The first one that comes to mind for me is Jon Kucharo, who rose to the top of the pool world twenty years ago. He was just 20 years old and already considered a top five player with his powerful break and no-miss game. He was destined for greatness and then he turned 21 and got introduced to alcohol. He disappeared from big time pool within two years.

Your comparison with Harold Worst is appropriate. He didn't really enter the pool world until he was 30, concentrating instead on Three Cushions and his business career. But when he did arrive, he set the pool world on fire. He started winning tournaments right away, and taking money from the top players who dared to challenge him. Within two years he was considered the best player in the world, kind of like what Efren did in the 80's after arriving here. He just kept getting better too, learning new games (again like Efren) and dominating them quickly. It lasted all of five years and then he was gone, a shooting star who burned out too soon.

Efren also arrived here after age 30 and the rest is history. He was also a winner from the get go, but his weak break at 9-Ball proved his undoing. Once he found One Pocket, where the break was a soft shot, he was home free for the rest of his career.

There is a wealth of talent in pool today and it's a shame that in a year with so many good tournaments on the calendar it was all brought to a halt. 2020 will be a year that we all want to forget. Let's hope that 2021 brings better things for all of us. Man remains a frail creature on this Earth and maybe this will serve as a warning for the future.

 

[sjm]

There is a wealth of talent in pool today and it's a shame that in a year with so many good tournaments on the calendar it was all brought to a halt. 2020 will be a year that we all want to forget. Let's hope that 2021 brings better things for all of us. Man remains a frail creature on this Earth and maybe this will serve as a warning for the future.

As usual, Jay, we're back on the same page now. It's disheartening that in the absence of current tournaments, all we have to discuss is the recent and distant past. Let's hope that the sport we love comes out of all this unscathed, and will resume providing us with the many thrills to which we're accustomed.

Here's to 2021 indeed!

 

[animatedvmaker]

Ban the jump cue. Hold a big tournament. Watch who makes the finals. It won't be some of the names we are discussing.

Kicking is becoming a lost art.

Yeah, it seems very hard to play a good safe anymore, because Jump cues have made it so easy for even the weakest of players. You really need to freeze your opponent up against a ball in order to keep them from being able to jump over the ball.

 

[animatedvmaker]

Only my opinion, but if you had a "drop from the bucket break", alternate or winner break, and played on a pyramid table (tightest pockets of all the games), Filler would still beat Bergman in 8 ball/9 ball/10 ball by a good margin.

We will see who the stronger 8 ball player is very soon.

Bergman is playing Filler at The Billiard Club in Louisvilly KY, on the 21st - 22nd, race to 80, 8 ball, winner breaks.

 

[animatedvmaker]

You don’t think Gorst has improved in the last two years as well? If I’m not mistaken, he’s as young or possibly even younger than Filler.

Yeah, Fedor Gorst is only around 19, and that is why he was unable to play in the DCC. It has only been around a year (or maybe a little longer) since he won the Junior 9 ball world championships, for 18 and under players.

Then he went Pro, and started playing full time on the Euro tour.

I read that Filler is 22.

 

[animatedvmaker]

The first one that comes to mind for me is Jon Kucharo, who rose to the top of the pool world twenty years ago. He was just 20 years old and already considered a top five player with his powerful break and no-miss game. He was destined for greatness and then he turned 21 and got introduced to alcohol. He disappeared from big time pool within two years.

Your comparison with Harold Worst is appropriate. He didn't really enter the pool world until he was 30, concentrating instead on Three Cushions and his business career. But when he did arrive, he set the pool world on fire. He started winning tournaments right away, and taking money from the top players who dared to challenge him. Within two years he was considered the best player in the world, kind of like what Efren did in the 80's after arriving here. He just kept getting better too, learning new games (again like Efren) and dominating them quickly. It lasted all of five years and then he was gone, a shooting star who burned out too soon.

Efren also arrived here after age 30 and the rest is history. He was also a winner from the get go, but his weak break at 9-Ball proved his undoing. Once he found One Pocket, where the break was a soft shot, he was home free for the rest of his career.

There is a wealth of talent in pool today and it's a shame that in a year with so many good tournaments on the calendar it was all brought to a halt. 2020 will be a year that we all want to forget. Let's hope that 2021 brings better things for all of us. Man remains a frail creature on this Earth and maybe this will serve as a warning for the future.

I remember hearing about how great Jon Kucharo was when I was a kid, back in the 90's. He sounded like a road player, and a hustler. He gave a really great player that I knew back in the 90's the 7 out playing 9 ball, and the guy I knew said that he was playing the best pool of his life, and still had no chance of winning.

So, what happened to him? He just disappeared? Are there any public videos out there of him playing?

I can't imagine that Fedor Gorst, or Josh Filler will just disappear like he did. They just seem to be too clean cut / professional, and I can't imagine that they have or will ever have any bad habits.

Unless they just get burned out from playing pool, and want to take up a new hobby or full time profession.

 

[u12armresl]

And may I add it is so easy to get into Filler's head, he loses his temper very quickly or as Pia tells people he is disappointed in missing.

Imagine if he was playing back in the day when jawing back and fourth was the common thing. Kid wouldn't run out a rack playing Ronnie.

I've seen so many come and go. Let's see if he's still around and winning ten years from now. Guys like Shane, Dennis and Alex have shown longevity in their careers. It remains to be seen whether Mr. Filler is still pounding those balls in when he is 30 and 35.

Wu was the GREATEST at age 16 and fell off the map by age 20. He did make a nice comeback and has shown spurts of his old strength at times, but he is not the same dominant player he once was. He looks great one day and average the next.

 

[sjm]

I remember hearing about how great Jon Kucharo was when I was a kid, back in the 90's. He sounded like a road player, and a hustler. He gave a really great player that I knew back in the 90's the 7 out playing 9 ball, and the guy I knew said that he was playing the best pool of his life, and still had no chance of winning.

So, what happened to him? He just disappeared? Are there any public videos out there of him playing?

Speaking as someone who saw Jon Kucharo at his best numerous times and knew him, he was a very fine player but never the best.

He became a regular on the PBT (the top professional billiards tour of that era) in the 90's, and to my knowledge never enjoyed a ranking higher than about number five, although his peers on the PBT did vote him as having the best nine ball break one year. I recall he beat out Archer by a single vote for that distinction.

At Jon's very best, and I'm sure Jay knows this, he made the mistake of barking at Jose Parica, and Parica gave him the seven, eight and nine at nine ball and beat him handily in big stakes action. Let's not confuse Jon for a legendary talent. He was a superb player who burned out early, and we're all sad that he didn't endure, but he was not, in my opinion, ever on a trajectory to be the best player in the world.

Per Jay's posts, alcohol eventually got the better of Jon, who was a rising star of the game. Sad but true.

 

[sjm]

And may I add it is so easy to get into Filler's head, he loses his temper very quickly or as Pia tells people he is disappointed in missing.

Imagine if he was playing back in the day when jawing back and fourth was the common thing. Kid wouldn't run out a rack playing Ronnie.

Yeah, everyone has had great success getting in Filler's head. That's why he's won three of the five major WPA titles and has a silver in a fourth. If you view his passion and animation as weaknesses, you are missing the boat because they are strengths.

In every sport, those who want it the most and are most accustomed to success are often the ones that wear their few moments of failure on their sleeve.

Wake up before you miss one of the greatest shows our sport has ever seen.