Do you use english on your break shots?

[Winston846]

I guess what I was looking for was opinions on whether you use outside english when all else is equal. If you are not looking to spin the cue ball one way or the other off a rail, do you still use outside english? Consider the situation where you are not on a break shot, but you have a similar cut shot. Assuming position isn't critical, do you favor using a little outside english to "help" the ball go in, or do you use follow only, or draw only? Or, say you are shooting the 9 ball for the win and you don't need position. Do you throw a little outside on it?

Why make the shot any more difficult than it has to be? Your best percentage is always center ball. If you throw in that outside english, you may just throw the ball out of the pocket. Don't use english unless you need to (position, avoid a scratch, etc.).

If I have an object ball a half inch off the side rail about 2 diamonds from the corner pocket, and the cue ball is at an angle, I'm pretty much automatically going to put a little low outside on the shot, unless I can't make position that way. It does seem to "throw" the ball in the pocket more easily, but that could just be the way I got used to shooting those shots. I don't put english on my break shots, but it's really no different, so I'm starting to put a little outside to see how it goes.

IMHO, that's just an illusion that the brain perceives. A correctly struck center ball hit will cut the ball down the rail just as effectively.

But, I keep hearing that outside english does help avoid skidding.

 

[Ron F]

Grady

Lance:

I hope you don't mind my taking the liberty to do so, but here you go (attached as a .PNG file). Mosconiac's info about behind-the-rack break shots is right-on -- notice the important point about where the break ball is located in relation to the center of the bottom of the rack. The further-in (closer to the opposing cushion) it is, the more the inside-english / 3-rails-and-out approach works. These shots are among my favorites, because of the yield I get. Yes, you *do* have to have a very accurate stroke with power, but when you execute the breakshot as shown in view #3 of 3, the yield you get is very, very good because you're pushing the balls towards open space on the table (rather than towards cushions that are nearby / creating clustering), and the cue ball is going to the center of the table. I practice these often, and when executed correctly, get "Marianas Turkey Shoots" out of them with minimal clustering.

Hope this helps,
-Sean

Grady covers this shot well in "Break Shots and Key Balls". My take on it is - if the break ball is in the center of the rack or past center away from you, use high outside to go off the rack, into the opposing rail and spin out toward the center of the table. If it's closer to you than the center of the rack, use a firm stroke with a lot of inside english to go off the rack and then 3 rails and out. I've showed Winston this shot and I don't think he puts enough spin on the ball causing the CB to go shallow off the side rail and die behind the rack. Like you said, Sean, the CB needs a lot of zing off the first rail to get out from behind the rack.

Ron F

 

[mosconiac]

Ultimately, Ron is correct. It is vital that you study Grady's "Break Shots and Key Balls" video.

BTW, center ball on these shots will get you busted. Here's another rule of thumb (as learned from Grady's video):

http://pool.bz/P/?@3ACBW4BCpA3CCYA4..._a_clear_zone_(center_of_the_table).&ZZ2uBvN@

 

[dmgwalsh]

I usually use just a smidge of helping English on Break shots, if there is nothing special that I am trying to do with the cue ball.

In high break shots, where the cue ball is going to brush across the top two balls, I use high and a touch of reverse to keep the cue ball from banking into the side pocket.

On the low side of the rack break shot, I use some high reverse to come three rails out to the middle.

On the below the rack break shots, I use either high right or high left, depending upon where the balls are and where the cue ball will hit the back of the stack. This is explained by Rempe and Sigel and many others in their instructionals.

 

[poolmouse]

Dan:

Looks like you got a lot of great answers!

FYI, there's a really cool video in Accu-Stats collection, called "Pat Fleming's Creative Edge". Obviously, the video discusses a lot more than just straight pool, but the pointers he offers about straight pool in particular directly address your "to spin or not to spin" question.

The snippet in question is viewable on YouTube:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2iaEWtZOPSY

Pat starts right out with 14.1 break shots, both on the side as well as behind the rack, and which spin to use. He demonstrates for each situation.

It's a great video, and one that you'll be referring to again and again in your collection.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

I like Pat Flemming. I remember about 15 years ago a couple of us went to Elizabeth, NJ to play in a tournament. On the way home my friend's Lincoln Mark VII slid on the ice (bridge), smashed into the barrier and we were stranded. Pat drove by, recognized us, stopped and called for a tow truck. All the time we were there in the cold we had tons of great conversation. I'll never forget that.

That said...I don't entirely agree with Pat's assessment on english and break shots. He's very articulate and an extremely good player, but one thing isn't mentioned in his video. What happens if the cue ball impacts the racked ball just a bit ahead or behind the intended impact spot? The deflection angle would vary to the extent that the paths will not be consistent. So where Pat demonstrates a shot where the cue hits the rack and then hits the first diamond...if the cue hot the rack 1/4 ahead or behind that spot, the cue path could vary considerably.

It's hard to knock someone's advice, since none of us are the ultimate expert. I just think it's more important to analyze what would happen if you broke center ball...then decide what english/draw/follow to use. There's no blanket solution for any given break shot...every break shot is unique and your decision has to come after careful analysis.

 

[DonFelix]

at least for me it is a lot easier to pocket the side-of-the-pile-break-shot with outside english. so i use spin on almost any breakshot. of course there are situations, where i have to change that, if a certain english is required to not scratch, etc.
i know that a center ball hit should be the easiest way to pocket a ball, but for me that just isnt the case. i have almost unlearned how to make some kind of shots without english.

 

[Ron F]

English

I'd say I pretty much always use English when executing a break shot. To me, the real challenge of the break shot isn't simply to break open the pile. That's easily done provided you've positioned the 15th ball and the CB in suitable positions. The real challenge is to get a shot after breaking up the pile. How are your opportunities of getting a shot after the break shot increased? Through CB separation. Flying into the pile and having the CB stick to the side of the rack only makes for a difficult subsequent safety and an advantage to your opponent. Hitting it twice as hard helps improve CB separation, but diminishes break shot accuracy. So whenever possible (just about always), I use English to either clear the CB from the rack area after contact or use a ton of force follow to get the RPM's up on the cue ball so it bulls its way through the pile after the initial contact. Hitting the CB center ball on a break shot, to me at least, would be like throwing a knuckleball at the rack. If it hits the rack flush, inertia is lost almost immediately and the CB stays very close to where it struck the rack. I've learned that for break shots in which the CB will strike a rail first (back rail or side rail) and english is lost on the collision with the rail, speed is your best friend. I can't count how many times I've played a shot behind the rack into the corner, the CB bounced off the foot rail and stuck to the back of the rack. Anymore, if I don't feel confident of making the shot with a lot of speed on th CB I'll aim the CB to strike a corner ball. At least that way my chances of CB separation from the pile are increased as are my chances of having a shot after the break shot.

Ron F

 

[Pushout]

Growing up in NY in the 60's and learning to play pool. When someone spoke of "English" it was only: Left or Right.
The tern Follow would be used for high center and then: High Left & High Right.
The tern for Draw was: Draw and Low Left or Low Right.
Then there was the Center.
I still think of all in the same way.


PS: nothing to add about all the above comments b/c they are all right on.

Yeah, I learned in NY also, the state, not the city. But the terms were the same, alright.