Does a 'good' hit actually matter or is it all hype?
- Thread starter zpele
- Start date
I think it can matter.
If you're sufficiently attuned to the feedback the cue is giving you it can help you with your spin and speed control. More importantly in can help in terms of your confidence.
But cues are like wine, or cigars, or... (ok I won't go there). You have to have sampled enough of them to have developed your palate and ability to appreciate subtle differences.
However, once your skill level is high enough, the importance of any particular cues diminishes because you understand the game well enough that you don't need a particular cue to play well. You can adjust, which is a skill unto itself. It's perhaps like when Cecil Tugwell, because of an injury, had to switch from being a righty to a southpaw. He still played a tremendous game.
Lou Figueroa
If you're sufficiently attuned to the feedback the cue is giving you it can help you with your spin and speed control. More importantly in can help in terms of your confidence.
But cues are like wine, or cigars, or... (ok I won't go there). You have to have sampled enough of them to have developed your palate and ability to appreciate subtle differences.
However, once your skill level is high enough, the importance of any particular cues diminishes because you understand the game well enough that you don't need a particular cue to play well. You can adjust, which is a skill unto itself. It's perhaps like when Cecil Tugwell, because of an injury, had to switch from being a righty to a southpaw. He still played a tremendous game.
Lou Figueroa
Based on this, it sounds like by "quality," you mean cue and tip "efficiency." One way to test this is with a bounce test demonstrated in the following video:
HSV B.42 - Tip and cue efficiency, with Bob Jewett
You should try this out with the cues you want to compare. Any hard and solid surface can be used (i.e., you don't need a big piece of steel). And you don't need a high-speed video camera. The tip type and hardness obviously have a big effect on the "efficiency" of a "hit."
Obviously, with a draw shot, if you use a cue and tip with less hit efficiency, the CB will not get as much backspin or forward speed for a given stroke. And with less CB forward speed, more backspin will be lost due to cloth drag on the way to the OB. If this is the case, the CB will not draw back as much. We don't need an experiment to test this because the expected result is obvious. Now, if the tip contact point and the CB speed is the same in any comparison between two cues, the amount of draw should be consistent.
FYI to those interested, the cue "feel," "hit," "feedback," and "playability" resource page covers all of the stuff in this thread fairly well, including the efficiency stuff.
Regards,
Dave
That is a fantastic way of explaining it. So true.
Additionally, I should have mentioned from my previous post- the way a cue feels in my hand means a lot too. When I mention hit I should have also mentioned the balance point, etc. The cues that usually have hit like shit for me, also felt "wrong" in my hands as well as performance of the cue ball. The hit was terrible, or just "off" feeling to me. The cue ball also felt harder to move around. I don't mind adjusting myself, but not to the point I have to rely on more rails to get shape, when I typically just slide it around with low english. Meaning it requires more stroke, which is bad. You should not have to stroke the heck out of something to get it where it needs to be.
Obviously, some of this could be shaft, tip, butt, and it could be just ME too.
Ron Swanson
Banned
Fwiw I'd just repeat the same draw shot, alternating cues between shots. Do 20 each, record where the CB lands and take an average. This should be broadly representative of how each cue performs the shot.
I have a cue i find very difficult to draw with - a McDermott with a Lucasi LD shaft - but can follow like no one's business with it - what's that all about?
So a butt made up of cheap light,and soft woods with 3 oz of added weight ( 15 oz butt weight ) would not make a difference against a butt made of rosewood and select maple with 1 oz of added weight ?
That's the question. With the same balance point and weight and tip and tip shape- does hit actually make a difference other than mental? Does it actually effect cue performance or does it just change the feedback?
I am interested in draw and follow as well and I'm not convinced that the efficiency test fully shows results. For the same weight, balance, tip and tip shape does a cue with superior wood follow or draw as well as another with cheap, soft wood?
I would assume that the efficiency test Mr. Jewitt performs will return the same results but maybe not.
This is precisely what I refer to when I speak about a cue being more efficient, powerful, spins the ball easier, etc. Given the same stroke speed, a more efficient cue will move the ball better/faster than a less efficient cue, thus leaving a difference in cue ball speed. In order for your test the cue ball reaction given the same speed, one cue will need to be stroked faster. That, IMO, negates the purpose of comparing two cues.
"If the tip contact point and the CB speed is the same in any comparison between two cues, the amount of draw should be consistent." I would not argue that logic. Makes total sense to me. I only argue that stroke required to get the CB to that speed will be different between the two cues. One cue will allow you to stroke softer, while the other will require you to hit much firmer/faster, to achieve the same CB speed. This is what I mean by some cues are simply better, more powerful, easier to play with.
A marshmallow and a cue ball are about the same size. Add a weight to the back of the marshmallow to match it with the weight of the cue ball. Which one would you rather have thrown at you?
Some woods are very effective at transmitting energy, while others absorb it. This is the reason certain woods are used in musical instruments while others would never be considered. A cue with junk would or crappy construction will absorb energy from the impact. A cue with dense, tonal woods and solid construction will rocket the ball with minimal effort. Think of the butt of a cue as the foundation for a house. Build a house on sand & it will sink. Build it on stone and it stands strong forever. A shaft is only as good as it's foundation allows. The best tip, ferrule shaft, etc. will be useless if the butt is junk.
The way I look at it is that EVERYTHING affects how the cue hits. Whether or not you can tell the difference, whether there is a practical difference, or whether you can explain the difference doesn't change the fact that different construction methods result in different cues.
If one needs easy proof just change the tip. If changing the tip shows you immediately a difference then what does changing the balance, weight, wood type, ferrule type etc...do?
One time at an SBE Mike Gulyassy had me hold his cue with the butt cap resting on my palm. He held the other end and lightly scratched the tip at the top. I could clearly feel the vibrations in my palm. I went back to the Fury booth and tried it with several Fury cues and neither myself nor my colleagues could feel the vibration.
Does that actually mean anything? Well Mike thought so and he was a world class player before turning into a great cue maker.
This is pretty much the question isn't it? And it is the premise that all performance shafts are built on as far as I see it.
all personal preference. "good" hit to you is gonna be totally different from a "good" hit to someone else. some guys prefer a harder, firmer hit while others prefer something softer and quieter. it's all what you prefer. if you have no preference and shoot well with what you have now.....i wouldn't worry about it too much.
Remove the bumper from your cue and hit a few balls, then put it back in and hit a few more balls. Anybody will notice a difference. Some will only notice sound difference, while more experienced players will notice other things. Point being, if a bumper makes that much difference, then shouldn't everything else?
YES .
Even the BUTT taper affects the cue ball action and the feel on your grip hand .
In fact, even the quality of the handle stock affects the hit .
The maker has to understand what the forearm's job is. And what the handle's job is.
I have an old McDermott that plays lights out, but when the bumper on it is out it plays like a car driving on 3 wheels. It sounds crappy and plays crappy...if you ask me.
This is very true and I have noticed it on many cues. Except Meuccis. I have had a few where the bumper would constantly fall off and I wouldn't notice for hours.
Without creating a completely different topic, I would suggest that this is due to Meucci's ferrule design. The material is soft and flexible, and there is an intentional hollow point between the tip and shaft wood. This, IMO, nullifies many of the affects other components might have because there is a purposeful break in continuity between tip and cue. The cue is greatly separated (more so than typical designs) from the impact of hit. Genius idea in theory, not so much in reality, IMO.
Hi John, back from vacation !
...I must say, I liked your explanation of 'hit/feel' in your post #78, better than this one..Who cares about 'vibration' in the butt cap, that's not where you hold it, is it ?..Myself, I do not want to feel ANY vibration, anywhere !...As you may remember, I was never a big "stick person"..I did like a cue that 'felt' good, and had a good tip on it...Beyond that, it didn't matter if it was a $10 house cue, or a high$$$$ Bushka, or Szam, or even if it was perfectly straight !I have owned, (rarely bought, usually won, or loaned money on) probably hundreds of cues over the years...I usually sold them, the first chance I had to make a buck on them..All I ever cared about, in a cue, was the weight (18 to 20 oz) the tip size (12 or 12-1/2) and the taper (pro taper)..The length did not even matter that much, as long as the balance point was comfortable !
I always carried a few cues with me on the road, (just in case) but I actually preferred the feel of 'solid wood', over almost ANY jointed cue..So I have usually found a good house cue, (in the better equipped pool rooms) shaped the tip to my liking, hid it, and used it 'til it disappeared !..When I found a real good one, I would buy it, and use it for quite a while...But they are admittedly awkward to carry around, and can easily get warped.
I realize this is not the norm, (for a pretty decent player)..but I have always felt that guys who needed a perfect, custom made cue, with the latest in cue tip technology, were often spoiled and had most of that stuff all in their head !.. Another thing was, in my day, as soon as you brought in a custom cue, your chances to "match up real good" were severly diminished !..I have won more money, just grabbing one 'off the rack' than most guys who had to have their "heavy artillery", before they'd even match up with a shortstop.
Sorry, got carried away a little !..I did not realize it would take so long to explain why I have always believed...
it ain't the 'bow and arrow'....ITS THE ARCHER ! :thumbup:
SJD
PS..How ya been ?..Good talking to you again..
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Hi John, back from vacation !
I have owned, (rarely bought, usually won, or loaned money on) probably hundreds of cues over the years...I usually sold them, the first chance I had to make a buck on them..All I ever cared about, in a cue, was the weight (18 to 20 oz) the tip size (12 or 12-1/2) and the taper (pro taper)..The length did not even matter that much, as long as the balance point was comfortable !
I always carried a few cues with me on the road, (just in case) but I actually preferred the feel of 'solid wood', over almost ANY jointed cue..So I have usually found a good house cue, (in the better equipped pool rooms) shaped the tip to my liking, hid it, and used it 'til it disappeared !..When I found a real good one, I would buy it, and use it for quite a while...But they are admittedly awkward to carry around, and can easily get warped.
I realize this is not the norm, (for a pretty decent player)..but I have always felt that guys who needed a perfect, custom made cue, with the latest in cue tip technology, were often spoiled and had most of that stuff all in their head !.. Another thing was, in my day, as soon as you brought in a custom cue, your chances to "match up real good" were severly diminished !..I have won more money, just grabbing one 'off the rack' than most guys who had to have their "heavy artillery", before they'd even match up with a shortstop.
Sorry, got carried away a little !..I did not realize it would take so long to explain why I have always believed...
it ain't the 'bow and arrow'....ITS THE ARCHER ! :thumbup:
SJD
PS..How ya been ?..Good talking to you again..
I have also played some of my best pool off the wall. I don't know that all the parts play a role or if they do what role they play. I do know that not all cues feel the same and some are nicer to play with than others.
I also know that in all these discussions at some point I have offered to bet if I got to pick the cue for my opponent, all BCA specs of course, and no one was willing to do that.
I think it's mostly the archer but also the bow and arrow plays a big part in it. It's why you don't see world class archers trying to compete with Robin Hood era bows.
Cues I think kind of have evolved into an acceptable spectrum of playability where anything that is low to middle through to the top end are good enough to win in the pro ranks. And if they are good enough for the pros then they are surely good enough for the amateurs.
I sold cues for 20 years (and still do) with one simple answer to the question of how it hits.......that answer is "I don't know, go hit with it and you tell me."