Does a stainless steel joint make a difference at all? I say no

TheNewSharkster

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Things have seemed a little quiet around here lately and I haven't made a topic in awhile. Here is a subject I see come up every now and then and it seems people love to debate this topic.

My stance is the joint makes little to no different with the hit. The best argument I have heard is a stainless steel joint changes the balance point of a stick making it feel different then without.

Also, a very respected cue maker by the name of Dan Janes says on his site-

http://josscues.com/html/faq.html

Q: Why do you only use a stainless steel joint?

A: It's the best joint there is. (In my opinion) Steel is harder to work and costs more than plastic. If plastic was better I would definitely use it on my cues. Unfortunately, it's not. I have used ivory and still do on some of my more expensive cues. It's a nice material, but not as strong as steel, and contrary to popular opinion ivory does not change the hit of a cue. The tip, ferrule and shaft will, but not the joint.


So there you have it. It must be true. Just kidding. One test that would be interesting would be to cover the joints on a bunch of cues and have someone see if he could feel the difference between the two.
 
I prefer a steel joint on my cues, but I dont have anything to comare. My Schons with steel joints cant be compared to my other cues, McD and Predator sneaky wood-wood joints. They are totally different cues with totally diffent hits, but I like them just fine, just not as much as my Schon:D. I like that the steel joint is more durable than other materials. I have had some cues with plastic joint collars that chipped or cracked. You dont have to worry about the steel joint crackin, unless you are doing something wayyyyyy wroang, lol.
 
Last edited:
snipershot said:
I prefer a steel joint on my cues, but I dont have anything to comare. My Schons with steel joints cant be compared to my other cues, McD and Predator sneaky wood-wood joints. They are totally different cues with totally diffent ts, but I like them just fine, just not as much as my Schon:D. I like that the steel joint is more durable than other materials. I have had some cues with plastic joint collars that chipped or cracked. You dont have to worry about the steel joint crackin, unless you are doing something wayyyyyy wroang, lol.
Click to expand...

IMO , joint material can make a very noticable difference.

Different joints with have different amount of flex , different mass (weight) , transmit different amounts of vibration and usually at different frequency. Just like different woods and construction methods can do the same . . . or all cues would feel alike. :)

Better or worse depends on personal opinion.
 
I've found SS jointed cues to be more front- heavy, which I like. Butt-heavy cues I tend to hit too hard with. As far as hit goes, I've shot with wood to wood TS sneakies, SS piloted Pechauer and no-name cue, Ivory jointed cues, and a phenolic collared Barnhart and Meucci. I'd have to say personally, that the biggest difference between all of those cues would have to be the shafts. When I hit with a different cue, what stands out the most is usually the shaft/tip in my mind, like "Hey this shaft is really skinny, and the tip seems to grip real well. Look at my draw!" or "Nice stiff hit with this shaft, it's a little fat for my stubby fingers but my accuracy is a lot better.".

I do find piloted joints to be a bit stiffer than non piloted though. And that phenolic joints do mute the hit a bit.
 
The general subject of a cue's joint material/type by itself affecting the hit of a cue has been discussed here a number of times over the past several years... and there have several cuemakers come forward on those threads to state that it doesn't affect the hit noticeably... as everything forward of the joint has a much more pronounced effect... starting at the tip, then the ferrule and then the thickness and taper of the shaft... fwiw.
 
cigardave said:
The general subject of a cue's joint material/type by itself affecting the hit of a cue has been discussed here a number of times over the past several years... and there have several cuemakers come forward on those threads to state that it doesn't affect the hit noticeably... as everything forward of the joint has a much more pronounced effect... starting at the tip, then the ferrule and then the thickness and taper of the shaft... fwiw.
Click to expand...


I would like to hear from a cue maker on this subject.
 
My stance is the joint makes little to no different with the hit. The best argument I have heard is a stainless steel joint changes the balance point of a stick making it feel different then without.
Click to expand...


If you happen to favor an open bridge for most shots, then having a forward weighted cue is preferred.

A stainless steel joint definately helps this cause.

Thanks.

Bernie P.
 
I prefer a SS joint, but its personal preference. I hold no beliefs that it does anything better or worse than other joints. I have always played with a steel joint, and all the players I look up to played/play with a SS joint.

When I ordered a cue from a certain very well respected cue maker, he told me Steve Mizerak believed that you got out what you put into a SS joint. If you stroked it to draw back a foot, that is all you got. I'm not saying I can even begin to explain this or that this belief was shared by the cuemaker, so don't bother (I can hear Patrick Johnson typing furiously somewhere). But I found it interesting.
 
Last edited:
cigardave said:
The general subject of a cue's joint material/type by itself affecting the hit of a cue has been discussed here a number of times over the past several years...and there have several cuemakers come forward on those threads to state that it doesn't affect the hit noticeably. . . [/U
Click to expand...



I don't know of one cue maker that believes this.

In fact , I've heard many an arguement to contrary. . . even taken to include different bumper types and styles affecting the sound and percieved hit of a cue.

I suppoed at certain lower levels however , the differences could be muted by other lacking aspects of a cues makeup but at the higher levels of craftsmanship , more fine details ring out more clearly.

IMO.

:)

For example , Bludworth , a pioneer in cue biulding in his own right , can and will talk volumes about 'his' pin type alone and it's affect on a cues performance , hit and feel.
 
Last edited:
cigardave said:
The general subject of a cue's joint material/type by itself affecting the hit of a cue has been discussed here a number of times over the past several years... and there have several cuemakers come forward on those threads to state that it doesn't affect the hit noticeably... as everything forward of the joint has a much more pronounced effect... starting at the tip, then the ferrule and then the thickness and taper of the shaft... fwiw.
Click to expand...

Joint COLLLAR material or PIN/screw?

SS collars definitely FEEL different than phenolic or ivory collars.

If SW came with SS collar and big pin, it will definitely be different than if it had phenolic collars.
 
With due respect to some pretty good cuemakers, the one I would consult on this would be Dennis Dieckman.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
My stance is the joint makes little to no different with the hit. The best argument I have heard is a stainless steel joint changes the balance point of a stick making it feel different then without.
Click to expand...
Assuming we are talking only about the cue as a method to transfer "information" to your grip hand, the joint is just one component in a complex system. In virtually all cues today, the tip, ferrule, shaft, joint, rings, collars, forearm, veneers, butt sleeve, etc all have different properties. Then there are epoxies, glues, wraps, and finishes to consider. As well as wood density, taper, diameter, coring, air pockets, and I'm sure a few other items.

Ultimately, IMO, there are too many variables to simply pick one and say "this changes the hit noticeably." I'm fairly confident that a steel cue changes the balance of the cue, but I would guess there is little objective evidence of changing the hit. A LOT of subjective evidence is floating around though...

-td
 
TheNewSharkster said:
[...]
My stance is the joint makes little to no different with the hit. [...]

One test that would be interesting would be to cover the joints on a bunch of cues and have someone see if he could feel the difference between the two.
Click to expand...

Here's a post from 11 years ago from another forum by the late John McChesney, who did exactly that:

*************************
[...]
The "hit" is determined by the tip hardness & density, ferrule material,
shaft diameter, number of growth rings per inch of the shaft and the
taper....
Try this experiment (as we did a number of years ago ):
Place paper and tape over the butt and make sure to cover the entire butt
including the joint...place masking tape around the ferrule (of many styles
of cues )...then, have numerous players hit balls with each of the cues and
you will find out that:
-they can not tell you if it is steel or fibre jointed
-they can not tell you if it is a predator or not
-they can not tell you if it is a Meucci or not..however they will notice
and submit the difference in a "stiff" hitter or a "flexible" hitter.
That was our results of 18 different cues:
McDermott : both steel & fibre jointed
Meucci : both "oldie series/metal jointed" and implex (plastic)
Joss East, Joss West, Southwest, Adams, Huebler, Mali and others.
Amazingly, almost everyone thought the hit of the Huebler, Southwest and
McDermott were the very best...and thought they were hitting with the Joss
West...Does this mean that the stffer hitting cues hit best ? At least with
our test...that was the conclusion...and...no one could really guess which
theey were playing with !!

--
John McChesney
Texas Express
j...@texasexpress.com
http://www.texasexpress.com
http:/national9balltour.com
*************************************
 
Makes a difference to me, I've only played with a very few SS joints in the last several years that I could like. Tasacrella and Gilbert were the two that stand out in my mind. I know a lot of people like Schon cues and I think their designs are nice but I simply cannot play with the hit. I have the utmost respect for Dan Janes, but since the custom he made for me years ago, I don't like the feel of the current Joss SS joints. I've played almost exclusively with wood to wood for twenty years now. I personally think it has a lot to do with the hit.
 
The "Hit"

You have to remember that you are dealing with a "feeling" here not an exact. What feels better to you? Elk Master? La Pro? Predator? OB1?
I have done the hide the joint and tell me what you are playing with thing. Not one player including Rempe, Hall, Taylor, Florence and a few others could tell the difference.
All could tell the difference between Champion tip, La Pro and maybe Elk Master. But you could see the tips so maybe there was some "expectation" here. You can tell by the tip names this was a long time ago.
When I started making cues the steel joint was the mark of a good cue. I feel that this came from Balabushka. If the best cue maker in the world was using a steel joint who was I to question. in the last 40+ years I have made most types of joints there are and have found very little difference in the "hit"
Balance forward ... The wood used in a cue will change the balance more than the joint.
Dan
 
Last edited:
makes a difference

Anything you do to a cue changes the hit. If any two cues hit the same it is largely a matter of luck. Some people are far more sensitive to differences than others and what one person considers the same hit someone else may feel is vastly different.

I have whittled on a few cues. Changing the stainless joint collar to ivorine four and the stainless pin to G-10 changed the hit on my personal player quite a bit. I like it much better but I don't like a real pingy cue. I also changed out the pin and cheap plastic collar on a sneaky I made using phenolic to maintain the look of the cheap plastic. Again there was a very significant change in the hit, in my opinion. However those two changes didn't make a cheap butt into a great hitting cue.

The catch is, as has already been said in this thread, everything about a cue adds up to make the hit. Tip, ferule, and shaft are normally most important but I would put the joint right behind them in most cases. A loose linen wrap will give a crappy hit in my opinion regardless of anything else to do with the cue. Shaft taper and length of taper changes the hit tremendously. Retapering a shaft can make a stick come alive or ruin it depending on what someone wants.

Hu
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top