Does Backhand English Reduce Deflection?

[BRKNRUN]

Hi jsp,
I think Backhand English should really be called something like Backhand Alignment for English. It is really an alignment methodolgy, not a type of English.

Some players use this method cueing straight through english and others with the swoop.
It may make more sense to say swoop english is a different type of english.

The common denominator between Aim and Pivot BHE or Aim and Swoop BHE is that the bridge hand is in the same place.....They are both simply BHE

BHE: your bridge hand is set up for a "center hit"
Paralell English: your bridge hand is set up for a "off center hit"

The bridge hand being set up for a center CB hit is what makes the deflection compensation so much easier to judge...

BHE almost eliminates any need for squirt or deflection compensation (whichever anyone calls it)...and since the angle of attack from the shaft is different from PE to BHE, you get more spin from BHE even though your tip is hitting the exact same spot as you would for PE...With BHE you are able to move the tip closer to center and still achieve the desired spin on the CB

 

[Colin Colenso]

The common denominator between Aim and Pivot BHE or Aim and Swoop BHE is that the bridge hand is in the same place.....They are both simply BHE

BHE: your bridge hand is set up for a "center hit"
Paralell English: your bridge hand is set up for a "off center hit"

The bridge hand being set up for a center CB hit is what makes the deflection compensation so much easier to judge...

BHE almost eliminates any need for squirt or deflection compensation (whichever anyone calls it)...and since the angle of attack from the shaft is different from PE to BHE, you get more spin from BHE even though your tip is hitting the exact same spot as you would for PE...With BHE you are able to move the tip closer to center and still achieve the desired spin on the CB

The point of my diagram was to show that exactly the same bridge axis point and the angle of attack can be replicated for what is called BHE.

It is quite simple geometry.

The simple difference is that one begins by aligning differently. In BHE the cue is then pivoted to the same point as the parallel aligner went straight to with his cue on that line. If it wasn't like this, the CB for the 2 shots wouldn't go down the same line.

The other difference is that the BHE player has his bride hand and body position on a slightly different angle. Spin that around and he'll be identical to the 'so called' parallel aimer.

Anyway...again I'll say it, Backhand English is a terrible term and it has led to a clear misunderstanding. It should be called Backhand Alignment for English, or Backhand Squirt Compensation.

I invite anyone to draw a diagram of the angles of BHE to show how it is any different than Parallel English. (Other than bride hand and body angle and initital method for alignment). In execution it is identical if used with a straight through cueing action.

 

[drivermaker]

Anyway...again I'll say it, Backhand English is a terrible term and it has led to a clear misunderstanding. It should be called Backhand Alignment for English, or Backhand Squirt Compensation.

Colin...can you please explain in vivid detail how you apply tuck and roll?

 

[drivermaker]

Colin...can you please explain in vivid detail how you apply tuck and roll?

C'mon Colin...I'm waiting. You either know how it's done or you don't. Quit searching the internet for help that gives you some kind of explanation.
Put it into your own words.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin...can you please explain in vivid detail how you apply tuck and roll?

I'm too busy wondering why I just wrote bride instead of bridge TWICE in the last post Perhaps it's an omen

Well I don't look at my hand when I tuck and roll.

Insofar as aiming, I align my tip maybe a touch off center so it looks to me like I'd hit a little thick if I fired through straight. Just as I cue into the ball I swoop a cue tip a touch, maybe another tip to the side at most if I'm trying for a lot of spin.

I basically look over my CB to my OB for alignment. I just know from experience where my cue is and how that is going to affect the path. The closest thing to geometry is that I often look for the line the OB needs to take. I don't actually picture a contact point on the OB. Just a path from the CB and a resulting line for the OB.

When I swoop I do so to create the path of the CB I want. Much of the time it comes subconsciously.

 

[Cane]

Hi jsp,
I think Backhand English should really be called something like Backhand Alignment for English. It is really an alignment methodolgy, not a type of English.

OK, so let me get this right... Colin and I are going to absolutely agree on something! I'll Be Damned!!!

Swooping, or Tuck&Roll aside, if you line up a shot using paralell english, which you would naturally have to aim off of your intended target line, because of squirt, then have someone mark the tip location and your bridge hand location, THEN line up using backhand english (not tuck and roll), then have someone compare those same tip and bridge locations, then you'll be in the same place... if you're not, then you weren't going to make the shot anyways!

Many people use BH English by swinging their elbow out and realigning their stroke from the elbow down only. To be done right, IMO, BHE should really be called BSE, Back Stance English. I swing my entire stance from center and leave my bridge stationary... hey, the balls go, and I can keep the exact same stroke every time, and in the end, the alignment is exactly the same on paralell and BH, this just makes it easier for me to maintain a good stroke and the SAME stroke every time.

Later,
Bob

 

[obrien714]

Backhand English

I have found this is an awsome tool in your bag of tricks. I have read ll the above and agree woth all of the descriptions. I leaned the technique from Bert Kinister. I know alot of you will laff and chuckle. He has a great tape on this subject called the DEFLECTION TAPE. It may be tape 18 or 19 in his series. It is very strong and man the balls go in.

PAt

 

[BRKNRUN]

The point of my diagram was to show that exactly the same bridge axis point and the angle of attack can be replicated for what is called BHE.

It is quite simple geometry.

The simple difference is that one begins by aligning differently. In BHE the cue is then pivoted to the same point as the parallel aligner went straight to with his cue on that line. If it wasn't like this, the CB for the 2 shots wouldn't go down the same line.

The other difference is that the BHE player has his bride hand and body position on a slightly different angle. Spin that around and he'll be identical to the 'so called' parallel aimer.

Anyway...again I'll say it, Backhand English is a terrible term and it has led to a clear misunderstanding. It should be called Backhand Alignment for English, or Backhand Squirt Compensation.

I invite anyone to draw a diagram of the angles of BHE to show how it is any different than Parallel English. (Other than bride hand and body angle and initital method for alignment). In execution it is identical if used with a straight through cueing action.

Perhaps I am going to learn something today....

Attached is your origonal image with a graphic added on the right of what I term paralell english. The cue will be on a paralell line with the origonal center ball aim, but moved to the left or right...This would require that you move both your bridge hand and grip hand on a paralell line......

For BHE the bridge hand and back hand would start on the center ball aim. Then you either pivot your back hand and then stroke, or swoop (as they say) to apply the english...(With BHE the bridge hand would be placed and kept on the center ball aim line)

The end result contact points between the CB and OB would be exactly the same, However, since the cue using BHE is coming in at an angle instead of straight on more spin would be applied to the CB....Also as you pivot the cue for BHE the squirt is accounted for or actually depended on automatacially.

With the Paraleall english, you must "know" how much squirt is going to take place.


That is the way I currently understand this...Please correct me if I am mistaken....As always I am not afraid to learn something new.

 

[drivermaker]

Insofar as aiming, I align my tip maybe a touch off center so it looks to me like I'd hit a little thick if I fired through straight. Just as I cue into the ball I swoop a cue tip a touch, maybe another tip to the side at most if I'm trying for a lot of spin.

Describe in detail how YOU swoop it.

 

[Rod]

Perhaps I am going to learn something today....

Attached is your origonal image with a graphic added on the right of what I term paralell english. The cue will be on a paralell line with the origonal center ball aim, but moved to the left or right...This would require that you move both your bridge hand and grip hand on a paralell line......

For BHE the bridge hand and back hand would start on the center ball aim. Then you either pivot your back hand and then stroke, or swoop (as they say) to apply the english...(With BHE the bridge hand would be placed and kept on the center ball aim line)

The end result contact points between the CB and OB would be exactly the same, However, since the cue using BHE is coming in at an angle instead of straight on more spin would be applied to the CB....Also as you pivot the cue for BHE the squirt is accounted for or actually depended on automatacially.

With the Paraleall english, you must "know" how much squirt is going to take place.


That is the way I currently understand this...Please correct me if I am mistaken....As always I am not afraid to learn something new.

You got it right, the diagram on the left is not correct for parallel. I even use a modified version part parallel and swipe.

I think collin was right on the descripiton, that is, it really shouldn't be called BHE.

Some swoop but that is not correct. In my world a swoop is an up and down motion, while a swipe is horizontal.

From the dictonary:
To move in a sudden sweep: The bird swooped down on its prey.
To make a rush or an attack with or as if with a sudden sweeping movement. Often used with down: The children swooped down on the pile of presents.

Swipe:
A sweeping blow or stroke.
To hit with a sweeping motion.
To pass (a swipe card) through an electronic reader.
To make a sweeping stroke.

See even the dictonary knows what a stroke is. Where they ever come up with swooping I'll never know. Well you know RSB they invented everything.





You could have a swipe/swoop. LOL Hell I just call it a side arm stroke, not much detail but the basic message is there.

Rod

 

[pete lafond]

You got it right, the diagram on the left is not correct for parallel. I even use a modified version part parallel and swipe.

I think collin was right on the descripiton, that is, it really shouldn't be called BHE.

Some swoop but that is not correct. In my world a swoop is an up and down motion, while a swipe is horizontal.

From the dictonary:
To move in a sudden sweep: The bird swooped down on its prey.
To make a rush or an attack with or as if with a sudden sweeping movement. Often used with down: The children swooped down on the pile of presents.

Swipe:
A sweeping blow or stroke.
To hit with a sweeping motion.
To pass (a swipe card) through an electronic reader.
To make a sweeping stroke.

See even the dictonary knows what a stroke is. Where they ever come up with swooping I'll never know. Well you know RSB they invented everything.





You could have a swipe/swoop. LOL Hell I just call it a side arm stroke, not much detail but the basic message is there.

Rod

In all cases it is the back hand that causes the cross. The only difference is that sometime the bridge hand also gets involved in the shot which makes it a UBHFBE or Unparallel back hand front bridge english.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Perhaps I am going to learn something today....

Attached is your origonal image with a graphic added on the right of what I term paralell english. The cue will be on a paralell line with the origonal center ball aim, but moved to the left or right...This would require that you move both your bridge hand and grip hand on a paralell line......

For BHE the bridge hand and back hand would start on the center ball aim. Then you either pivot your back hand and then stroke, or swoop (as they say) to apply the english...(With BHE the bridge hand would be placed and kept on the center ball aim line)

The end result contact points between the CB and OB would be exactly the same, However, since the cue using BHE is coming in at an angle instead of straight on more spin would be applied to the CB....Also as you pivot the cue for BHE the squirt is accounted for or actually depended on automatacially.

With the Paraleall english, you must "know" how much squirt is going to take place.


That is the way I currently understand this...Please correct me if I am mistaken....As always I am not afraid to learn something new.

BRKNRUN,
Your diagram is pretty much exactly how parallel english / aiming has been described, and the name parallel reenforces this idea.

However, as I said earlier in this thread, such a method simply cannot work. It would not pocket a ball as all cues deflect with english. It is the cueist who must compensate.

Cueists actually think they are lining up parallel to the line through the contact points, but if they do, they miss. They actually learn to instinctively place their cue on a line the same as that used by BHE users. They just align instinctively...not parallel.

So actually, the names for both methods are badly given, hence the confusion.

Your diagram is useful to point this out. What you draw is what 'so called' parallel aimers think they are doing, or try to do, my diagram is actually what they must do in order for their method to work.

Of course my diagram exaggerates the angle to make it clear. The angles are just a degree or two in reality.

It's little wonder most players simply learn to swoop a bit to make these shots.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Describe in detail how YOU swoop it.

Tuck, my hand comes in toward my body (hence tip moves to the right).
Roll, my hand moves away from my body (hence tip moves to the left).

I just watched my hand when I do it. I don't alter my wrist as tuck and roll is sometimes described. The change in direction originates at my shoulder.

Now...do I get a lolly for answering all your questions

 

[BRKNRUN]

BRKNRUN,
Your diagram is pretty much exactly how parallel english / aiming has been described, and the name parallel reenforces this idea.

However, as I said earlier in this thread, such a method simply cannot work. It would not pocket a ball as all cues deflect with english. It is the cueist who must compensate.

Cueists actually think they are lining up parallel to the line through the contact points, but if they do, they miss. They actually learn to instinctively place their cue on a line the same as that used by BHE users. They just align instinctively...not parallel.

So actually, the names for both methods are badly given, hence the confusion.

Your diagram is useful to point this out. What you draw is what 'so called' parallel aimers think they are doing, or try to do, my diagram is actually what they must do in order for their method to work.

Of course my diagram exaggerates the angle to make it clear. The angles are just a degree or two in reality.

It's little wonder most players simply learn to swoop a bit to make these shots.

Good...I thought I was losing it for a minute...I can definatley agree that sometimes what you think you do and what you are actually doing are two different things.

I hardley ever use PE anymore (because of the need to compensate) ......I don't swipe or swoop...I actually use as Fred coined the phrase "Aim and Pivot" .......I like working from a starting point of center CB hit for every shot.

 

[jsp]

The end result contact points between the CB and OB would be exactly the same, However, since the cue using BHE is coming in at an angle instead of straight on more spin would be applied to the CB....Also as you pivot the cue for BHE the squirt is accounted for or actually depended on automatacially.

BRKNRUN…I think both your reasoning and your diagram are incorrect. First of all, the figure on the right of your picture shows the cue path going completely parallel to the center of the cue ball. Because of squirt, the path of the cue ball will not exactly follow the vertical arrow, but deviate at an angle more towards the right. So the left figure and right figure will not have the same cue ball trajectory angle, assuming the cue paths are as drawn.

Your explanation that I quoted above is also faulty. You argue that for the same cue ball trajectory and the same contact points between the cue tip and the cue ball, the cue angle for the backhand english (BHE) case would be different from the parallel english (PE) case. I argue, the cue path angles for these two cases would be exactly the same, and so would the amount of squirt and the amount of spin.

Below is a diagram I cooked up to explain my reasonings. The left figure shows PE and the right figure shows BHE. For these two cases, the contact points (purple) and the force vectors (red) are identical. (The force vector shows the magnitude and direction of the applied force on the cue ball by the cue tip at the instantaneous moment of impact. The direction, or angle, of the vector is the tangent line of the cue tip path at the moment of impact.) Given the same contact points and force vectors, physics tells us the cue ball trajectory (dashed black), the amount of English applied, and the amount of squirt (thet) would all be exactly the same for both cases. The only difference between the two cases are the initial aiming direction (blue) and the cue tip trajectory (green).

Let me know if anyone disagrees with what I have said or drawn...

Edit: Again, when I refer to backhand english, I'm referring to the swooping method.

 

[pete lafond]

Good...I thought I was losing it for a minute...I can definatley agree that sometimes what you think you do and what you are actually doing are two different things.

I hardley ever use PE anymore (because of the need to compensate) ......I don't swipe or swoop...I actually use as Fred coined the phrase "Aim and Pivot" .......I like working from a starting point of center CB hit for every shot.

You do need parallel english when you need to achieve action on the cue ball. example; break shot in 14.1, extreme follow and draw and most long shots when english is required for a precise cue ball path.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I think you guys should all get together and play a big round robin tournament. Whoever wins is right!

Heh, I'm just talking s**t. I haven't read a post in this thread but I figured, with 3 pages and counting, there had to be some arguing going on!

 

[jay helfert]

Backhand English and other assorted stuff

I think you guys should all get together and play a big round robin tournament. Whoever wins is right!

Heh, I'm just talking s**t. I haven't read a post in this thread but I figured, with 3 pages and counting, there had to be some arguing going on!

Hey JM. I didn't realize there was so much about pool I didn't know. And to make matters worse, I didn't know that I didn't know. You know, you just never know. Got it?

 

[drivermaker]

Tuck, my hand comes in toward my body (hence tip moves to the right).
Roll, my hand moves away from my body (hence tip moves to the left).

I just watched my hand when I do it. I don't alter my wrist as tuck and roll is sometimes described. The change in direction originates at my shoulder.

Now...do I get a lolly for answering all your questions

I guess this is where we differ. (Hell, when haven't we). I consider what you're doing as backhand english, not tuck and roll. You are dynamically altering your entire hand delivery during the stroke with a straight wrist position.

I alter my wrist and either roll it supinated or tuck it concave. That's why it's called "tuck and roll". It's not a major move, but it's just enough to alter the angle of the tip and cue coming into the CB angling it either left or right. If you've never done it that way, give it a try. It also depends on whether it's a left or right cut. And yes, it's ALL feel and hitting 5 million balls...no system involved.

How about a protein drink instead...you look to be gaining some weight.

 

[Gabber]

BRKNRUN…I think both your reasoning and your diagram are incorrect. First of all, the figure on the right of your picture shows the cue path going completely parallel to the center of the cue ball. Because of squirt, the path of the cue ball will not exactly follow the vertical arrow, but deviate at an angle more towards the right. So the left figure and right figure will not have the same cue ball trajectory angle, assuming the cue paths are as drawn.

Your explanation that I quoted above is also faulty. You argue that for the same cue ball trajectory and the same contact points between the cue tip and the cue ball, the cue angle for the backhand english (BHE) case would be different from the parallel english (PE) case. I argue, the cue path angles for these two cases would be exactly the same, and so would the amount of squirt and the amount of spin.

Below is a diagram I cooked up to explain my reasonings. The left figure shows PE and the right figure shows BHE. For these two cases, the contact points (purple) and the force vectors (red) are identical. (The force vector shows the magnitude and direction of the applied force on the cue ball by the cue tip at the instantaneous moment of impact. The direction, or angle, of the vector is the tangent line of the cue tip path at the moment of impact.) Given the same contact points and force vectors, physics tells us the cue ball trajectory (dashed black), the amount of English applied, and the amount of squirt (thet) would all be exactly the same for both cases. The only difference between the two cases are the initial aiming direction (blue) and the cue tip trajectory (green).

Let me know if anyone disagrees with what I have said or drawn...

Edit: Again, when I refer to backhand english, I'm referring to the swooping method.

The only shot you cant play with parallel E is the straight shot, the one you described. Apply your reasoning to a 3/4 hit and you see that parallel works very well.

Gabber