Does Backhand English Reduce Deflection?

[Colin Colenso]

I guess this is where we differ. (Hell, when haven't we). I consider what you're doing as backhand english, not tuck and roll. You are dynamically altering your entire hand delivery during the stroke with a straight wrist position.

I alter my wrist and either roll it supinated or tuck it concave. That's why it's called "tuck and roll". It's not a major move, but it's just enough to alter the angle of the tip and cue coming into the CB angling it either left or right. If you've never done it that way, give it a try. It also depends on whether it's a left or right cut. And yes, it's ALL feel and hitting 5 million balls...no system involved.

How about a protein drink instead...you look to be gaining some weight.

I'm actually losing a little bit of weight now. Exercising a bit, practicing, eating better, drinking less lunatic soup

I don't want to start moving my wrist around as per the actual descriptive origins of the terms tuck and roll. If anything I'd like reducing some of the variables, perhaps by experimenting a little more with aim and pivot.

I did notice today that I have a tendency to even shift my bridge left and right to accomodate swiping . (Note: From now on I will refer to swiping instead of tuck and roll or swoop...swoop just for draw). *gasp*

What came natural to me playing with the 1 and 15/16" cue ball in English Pool is less so with the 2 and 1/4" US balls and larger cues. Perhaps this is the opportunity to take a short cut and try some systems for IE and OE.

Though these aren't likely to effect my game much. Making long shots and getting that CB control tighter, and seeing patterns more clearly will produce my best gains I believe.

 

[Colin Colenso]

The only shot you cant play with parallel E is the straight shot, the one you described. Apply your reasoning to a 3/4 hit and you see that parallel works very well.

Gabber

It's the same for 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 or any ball shot. With center ball cueing you can align so that the 2 contact points will line up to make the pot.

You can move parallel to this, but because of squirt the CB is deflected off this line.

Now people line up this way, that is true, but they must make compensations. They can do this is several ways such as:

1. Allow the swerve to bring the CB back to the line. Needs speed judgement.
2. Swipe a little to reduce the deflection or even possibly cancel it out. May be useful on harder shots for some.
3. Bridge shifting, by slightly varying the bridge during the shot.

Most the time I belive players using parallel english alignment method are doing these things subconsciously. I know I have done them for years. It just helped make the shots go in without having to align to a point that didn't seem to make sense.

In the end, most players say they do one thing, but actually learn making balls by lining up in a certain way and then hitting when they have an intuitive feel of how they can make the shot. With thousands of hours of practice they can end up being very consistant and adaptive.

 

[drivermaker]

I don't want to start moving my wrist around as per the actual descriptive origins of the terms tuck and roll. If anything I'd like reducing some of the variables, perhaps by experimenting a little more with aim and pivot.

Well, both ways work and moving your wrist works VERY effectively. However, it probably isn't for most players because it takes a lot of years behind you in the game and a tremendous amount of play and practice under all conditions. Once you graduate from your "newbie" stage, maybe you can give it a whirl.

 

[Cornerman]

I actually use as Fred coined the phrase "Aim and Pivot" .

I can't take credit for "Aim and Pivot." I got it from Bob Jewett, who probably got it from someone else. I coined the phrase "dynamic backhand english," which is the swooping type of english application. And "backhand english" itself is a Hal Houle term (who may have learned the term from someone else).

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

1. Parallel English as some people call the alternanative or typical method of just lining up with english, should never be parallel, unless you like missing.
?

Unless you are using a low squirt shaft. If you use a low squirt shaft, then the alignment for firm english shots should be closer to parallel.

I probably missed the part where we're only talking about normal shafts.

Fred

 

[Gabber]

It's the same for 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 or any ball shot. With center ball cueing you can align so that the 2 contact points will line up to make the pot.

You can move parallel to this, but because of squirt the CB is deflected off this line.

Now people line up this way, that is true, but they must make compensations.

Lets say I have to play a 3/4 ball usng parallel E. One way to do it is to line up thru the middle of the QB and aim full ball. If you now move the Q parallel to this line, you can make the ball with E by just using tip offset.

In reality, we all use both or either depending on the shot.

In the straight shot example, using PL shooting, you can hit the OB 1/2 ball just by using more E and still have your Q parallel to the original line. ie using squirt!
The one thing you cant do on this a straight shot is use PE and hit the ball full on!
Your Q HAS to be at an angle because of the squirt!
To me BHE and PL are the same, just different ways of aiming!

I am yet to be convinced of 'swiping'.

Gabber

 

[Colin Colenso]

Unless you are using a low squirt shaft. If you use a low squirt shaft, then the alignment for firm english shots should be closer to parallel.

I probably missed the part where we're only talking about normal shafts.

Fred

Well, with low squirt, some swerve and then the throw from the english on the CB, it's possible to even aim to the opposite side of parallel. So yes, parallel aiming can work on certain shots I suppose.

A lot of the shots I play with English do swerve a bit, especially the draw shots which I like playing with OE but find harder to judge for IE. But then, seems most times we need IE is when we are using follow anyway.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Lets say I have to play a 3/4 ball usng parallel E. One way to do it is to line up thru the middle of the QB and aim full ball. If you now move the Q parallel to this line, you can make the ball with E by just using tip offset.

In reality, we all use both or either depending on the shot.

In the straight shot example, using PL shooting, you can hit the OB 1/2 ball just by using more E and still have your Q parallel to the original line. ie using squirt!
The one thing you cant do on this a straight shot is use PE and hit the ball full on!
Your Q HAS to be at an angle because of the squirt!
To me BHE and PL are the same, just different ways of aiming!

I am yet to be convinced of 'swiping'.

Gabber

What aspect of swiping aren't you convinced of ?

 

[Cornerman]

A lot of the shots I play with English do swerve a bit, especially the draw shots which I like playing with OE but find harder to judge for IE. But then, seems most times we need IE is when we are using follow anyway.

Here's a standard bar 8-ball shot that happens when you get on the wrong side of the ball. It's a pretty shot that's nice to have in the bag. I've put a marker at "A" just in case I was actually playing position for another "last ball," since I'd hope that I didn't have to be in this position for my last ball.

START(
%Aj7I7%BL2R0%CI0P7%D^8I8%Em9O9%Fh9W7%GK5M3%HC9V4%NP6O3%P[0R0
%UR8P3%VZ1Q8%WE7S2%XN4Z9%YD3E5%ZP0O0%eC2b0%_N6Y4%`O1T2%aQ6P3
)END

Fred

 

[BRKNRUN]

BRKNRUN…I think both your reasoning and your diagram are incorrect. First of all, the figure on the right of your picture shows the cue path going completely parallel to the center of the cue ball. Because of squirt, the path of the cue ball will not exactly follow the vertical arrow, but deviate at an angle more towards the right. So the left figure and right figure will not have the same cue ball trajectory angle, assuming the cue paths are as drawn.

Your explanation that I quoted above is also faulty. You argue that for the same cue ball trajectory and the same contact points between the cue tip and the cue ball, the cue angle for the backhand english (BHE) case would be different from the parallel english (PE) case. I argue, the cue path angles for these two cases would be exactly the same, and so would the amount of squirt and the amount of spin.

Below is a diagram I cooked up to explain my reasonings. The left figure shows PE and the right figure shows BHE. For these two cases, the contact points (purple) and the force vectors (red) are identical. (The force vector shows the magnitude and direction of the applied force on the cue ball by the cue tip at the instantaneous moment of impact. The direction, or angle, of the vector is the tangent line of the cue tip path at the moment of impact.) Given the same contact points and force vectors, physics tells us the cue ball trajectory (dashed black), the amount of English applied, and the amount of squirt (thet) would all be exactly the same for both cases. The only difference between the two cases are the initial aiming direction (blue) and the cue tip trajectory (green).

Let me know if anyone disagrees with what I have said or drawn...

Edit: Again, when I refer to backhand english, I'm referring to the swooping method.

My mistake...I incorrectly used the word contact points...I should have said (aim) points. I fully understand that the ball will squirt to the right of the intended target (unless your using a Predator).....With BHE you actually depend on that happening.......

Also...Your diagram might be more reflective of what really is happening when someone is attempting to shoot with PE.....This falls into the what you think your doing and what your actually doing are two different things......IF that is what is really happening, then I would not call it PE (since the cue is not paralell with the center aim line)...I would term that traiangulation english...since the center line and cue line are "triangulated" .....Perhaps BHE should should be called X-english since the center aim line and cue form an X.....Just a thought..

 

[Gabber]

What aspect of swiping aren't you convinced of ?

That it reduces squirt.

G

 

[BRKNRUN]

That it reduces squirt.

G

I don't think that the swiping or aim and pivot or as I now call them X-english method reduces squirt. I think they just put the squirt to use in a positive way.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I think you guys should all get together and play a big round robin tournament. Whoever wins is right!

Heh, I'm just talking s**t. I haven't read a post in this thread but I figured, with 3 pages and counting, there had to be some arguing going on!

Actually...there has not been one bit of arguing...Surprisingly there has been some pretty good discussion without the hostile enviroment....until you came along........you.....Instigator!!....

Now....go learn how to break....

 

[pete lafond]

My mistake...I incorrectly used the word contact points...I should have said (aim) points. I fully understand that the ball will squirt to the right of the intended target (unless your using a Predator).....With BHE you actually depend on that happening.......

..

But not to forget, it is the contact point of the object ball that you are aiming to otherwise there are too many unpredictable variables. However the cue ball moves, squirt or curve, your aim is the contact point of the object ball to the pocket period. I know there are many players wanting to advance so I just want to make this perfectly clear for them.

Basically the cue ball may curve or squirt, but as a player you know this not only changes from felt to felt, but also based upon factors such as humidity. And you determine what to will allow or allow for. Anything other than this concept will not allow you to develop "feel" which is a key ingredient to shot making and position play.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Hey JM. I didn't realize there was so much about pool I didn't know. And to make matters worse, I didn't know that I didn't know. You know, you just never know. Got it?

Hi Jay! All I can say in response to that is, "I know"!

 

[Jimmy M.]

Actually...there has not been one bit of arguing...Surprisingly there has been some pretty good discussion without the hostile enviroment....until you came along........you.....Instigator!!....

Now....go learn how to break....

I've been working on my break but I keep getting confused over whether or not I should swoop it, swipe it, wipe it, or whack it. What a game!

 

[Colin Colenso]

That it reduces squirt.

G

I'm quite convinced that swiping can reduce, eliminate or ever reverse squirt.

Because the tip is moving accross the face of the CB slightly, it adds a component of force in this line, in the same way as a ball colliding with another ball induces throw (through friction).

Theoretically you could put side english on the CB striking it in the center, if your cue tip is swiping across when it hits the center. Such a CB would also be thrown to the direction the tip was moving.

So, with this component of force from swiping acting in the opposite direction (not 180 degree opposite but left v right) to the squirt then it can reduce it or cancel it. Just depends on the actual direction of movement of the tip on impact that the player can produce.

Go try some straight BHE shots and then swipe a few with the same alignment. If you time the swipe correctly, you should be able to not only generate more spin, but also change the direction the CB goes (reduce squirt).

 

[BRKNRUN]

I've been working on my break but I keep getting confused over whether or not I should swoop it, swipe it, wipe it, or whack it. What a game!

All of the above...

You swoop in.....swipe the cloth with your hand where you are going to set the CB...wipe the CB on your pants leg and set it on the spot you swiped........and then whack it..

Hopefully that clears everything up....

 

[BRKNRUN]

But not to forget, it is the contact point of the object ball that you are aiming to otherwise there are too many unpredictable variables. However the cue ball moves, squirt or curve, your aim is the contact point of the object ball to the pocket period. I know there are many players wanting to advance so I just want to make this perfectly clear for them.

Basically the cue ball may curve or squirt, but as a player you know this not only changes from felt to felt, but also based upon factors such as humidity. And you determine what to will allow or allow for. Anything other than this concept will not allow you to develop "feel" which is a key ingredient to shot making and position play.

I understand what your trying to say.....and for simplicity your right....

However.....Based on the aiming system I use, the "aim point" is not the actual contact point most if the time...

 

[Colin Colenso]

All of the above...

You swoop in.....swipe the cloth with your hand where you are going to set the CB...wipe the CB on your pants leg and set it on the spot you swiped........and then whack it..

Hopefully that clears everything up....

And if you win...
Slip on a shirt, slop on sunscreen, slap on a hat and swig on a beer!