BRKNRUN said:
You got it. Thanks.
Does Backhand English Reduce Deflection?
- Thread starter LastTwo
- Start date
You got it. Thanks.
I might have coined it but now I don't remember. Here is part of a post to the newsgroup alt.sport.pool from 1994, when it was actually a useful resource:Cornerman said:
I also believe that squirt is more or less independent of the shooter, but it
can appear to be otherwise. Some players use the "aim and pivot" method of
aiming for english shots. They line the shot up through the center of the cue
ball, and then pivot the stick about their bridge to get as much english as
they need. Whether this compensation works or not depends on many factors,
but it is clearly in the right direction.
Colin...I don't think this statement is technically correct (i might be harping on just a technicality, but i'm big on technicalities). I don't think BHE (swiping, swooping...whatever) can "eliminate" or "reduce" squirt at all. The squirt will always be there if you hit the cue ball off center and apply english (more specifically, if the direction of the force vector does not point directly through the center of the cue ball). However, I would agree that BHE can "compensate" for squirt. That's saying something totally different.Colin Colenso said:
For example, look at the the right figure of the picture that I posted in my previous post. The initial aiming direction is exactly the same as the cueball trajectory. So if you relate the cueball trajectory with the aiming direction, then you can say that the squirt is completely compensated for. However, squirt is never eliminated...there is still squirt, if you look at the direction of the force vector in relation with the cueball trajectory. So in both the left and right figures, the amount of squirt is exactly the same for both cases, which is represented by the angle theta. So for the right figure, you can say the squirt is totally compensated with respect to the aiming direction. For the left figure, however, the amount of squirt is not compensated for but is used in adjusting the initial aiming direction.
So just going back to the original question of this thread..."Does backhand english reduce deflection (squirt)?" The answer is no. There will ALWAYS be deflection (squirt) when you apply english on the cue ball. However, squirt can be compensated for using BHE. Just a technicality on the wording. That's all.
drivermaker
Banned
jsp said:
For some strange reason I keep getting this feeling, it could be off but I'm not so sure, that you're NOT from MA and your initials really might be PSJ...you just reversed them. And I'm also thinking that you're from about the middle of the country.
I'll throw this out there while it is on my mind. Planning a bigger reply later.
On this swooping thing. I just read in this thread that someone is swooping by moving the back hand. Is this what you saying is the difference between swooping and tuck and role? I assumed they were the same thing untill I read that swooping was moving the back hand. Tuck and role used the bridge hand. I don't see how you keep a good stroke and be moving the back hand.
For example... get a pencil and paper. Take the pencil as normally and put the point on the paper. Now take hold of the eraser end of the pencil with your opposite hand. Now right your name on the paper only moving the eraser end of the pencil. Pretty tough! Now still keep a hold of the eraser end but keep it still and right your name moving the front end of the pencil.
edit
I don't think swooping by moving the back hand would be a good idea to start trying. If you want to swoop, do it with the front hand like tuck and role.
On this swooping thing. I just read in this thread that someone is swooping by moving the back hand. Is this what you saying is the difference between swooping and tuck and role? I assumed they were the same thing untill I read that swooping was moving the back hand. Tuck and role used the bridge hand. I don't see how you keep a good stroke and be moving the back hand.
For example... get a pencil and paper. Take the pencil as normally and put the point on the paper. Now take hold of the eraser end of the pencil with your opposite hand. Now right your name on the paper only moving the eraser end of the pencil. Pretty tough! Now still keep a hold of the eraser end but keep it still and right your name moving the front end of the pencil.
edit
I don't think swooping by moving the back hand would be a good idea to start trying. If you want to swoop, do it with the front hand like tuck and role.
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Samy Strokes
Registered
to swoop or not to swoop
Back hand english for me is an excellent tool. Some observations I have after using it about two years:
1) Swooping seems easier for beginers to BH english because it ensures that they don't change the position of the pivot point i.e. Bridge. When I try to show it to them without swooping they can't grasp it unless I physically set them up each time. When I just tell them to aim straight in with center and swoop through the ball they grasp it quite quickly and then later learn to do it without swooping. Again I believe this is because they can't focus hard enough on not sliding their bridge as they slide the tip left or right on the cue ball.
2) BH english is much more useful for inside english than outside. On most 3/4 to 1/4 ball hit cut shots (rough estimate) if you use bh english with outside english you will overcut or throw the ball ( whatever the cause the result is the same). I just started playing with a low deflection stick and the object ball does "cut" less than with regular stick using BH but it is still noticable. I have to experiment with it more before I can be sure.
3) Swooping is the desired method only when using a slow roll or drag, float, whatever you want to call it, spin stroke (If you don't get that watch a couple matches with phillipino's and you will). For me anyways it greatly increases the acuracy of the shot when using it. If you try to line up with center, then adjust over and stroke straight, you end up pushing the cue ball off path a much higher percentage of the time. When using anything medium speed or above it's best to not use swooping, though you can still be successful with it at higher speeds.
4) I've had the best sucsess looking at it like this. Think of aiming straight through the ball, then adjusting your tip over, but still keeping your eyes over the original aim line. This is basically what I do except Instead of lining up with center and then swooping or adjusting then stroking straight throught the side of the ball I set up my cue line "off" my line of sight to start with even as I get down on the shot. This keeps me more focused on the shot instead of the "system" and alows me to fine tune and make minor adjustments with better feel. Sometimes when you start focusing to much on the system your game falls to peices, especially under pressure.
What this also does for me is allow me to forget about the middle of the CB and OB and just aim the shot whatever way I normaly do. If I'm aiming with the right side of the CB the shot looks exactly the same weather I'm using english or not. Wether I use ghostball meathod or hals or whatever it alwasys looks the same ( I don't use any real meathod for aiming, though I know a few). This is a big advantage for me because it drastically reduces the amount of "sightings" my brain has to store in the banks, and it reduces eye movement which can be the small begings of other movements during the shot (fidgeting, mental, nerves, ect.). For me this way is the best method a great deal of the time.
Samy Strokes
Back hand english for me is an excellent tool. Some observations I have after using it about two years:
1) Swooping seems easier for beginers to BH english because it ensures that they don't change the position of the pivot point i.e. Bridge. When I try to show it to them without swooping they can't grasp it unless I physically set them up each time. When I just tell them to aim straight in with center and swoop through the ball they grasp it quite quickly and then later learn to do it without swooping. Again I believe this is because they can't focus hard enough on not sliding their bridge as they slide the tip left or right on the cue ball.
2) BH english is much more useful for inside english than outside. On most 3/4 to 1/4 ball hit cut shots (rough estimate) if you use bh english with outside english you will overcut or throw the ball ( whatever the cause the result is the same). I just started playing with a low deflection stick and the object ball does "cut" less than with regular stick using BH but it is still noticable. I have to experiment with it more before I can be sure.
3) Swooping is the desired method only when using a slow roll or drag, float, whatever you want to call it, spin stroke (If you don't get that watch a couple matches with phillipino's and you will). For me anyways it greatly increases the acuracy of the shot when using it. If you try to line up with center, then adjust over and stroke straight, you end up pushing the cue ball off path a much higher percentage of the time. When using anything medium speed or above it's best to not use swooping, though you can still be successful with it at higher speeds.
4) I've had the best sucsess looking at it like this. Think of aiming straight through the ball, then adjusting your tip over, but still keeping your eyes over the original aim line. This is basically what I do except Instead of lining up with center and then swooping or adjusting then stroking straight throught the side of the ball I set up my cue line "off" my line of sight to start with even as I get down on the shot. This keeps me more focused on the shot instead of the "system" and alows me to fine tune and make minor adjustments with better feel. Sometimes when you start focusing to much on the system your game falls to peices, especially under pressure.
What this also does for me is allow me to forget about the middle of the CB and OB and just aim the shot whatever way I normaly do. If I'm aiming with the right side of the CB the shot looks exactly the same weather I'm using english or not. Wether I use ghostball meathod or hals or whatever it alwasys looks the same ( I don't use any real meathod for aiming, though I know a few). This is a big advantage for me because it drastically reduces the amount of "sightings" my brain has to store in the banks, and it reduces eye movement which can be the small begings of other movements during the shot (fidgeting, mental, nerves, ect.). For me this way is the best method a great deal of the time.
Samy Strokes
Cornerman said:I think the only way this works is if you subconsciously blend your speed and elevation such that squirt and swerve cancel out. If people can do this consistently, then they don't have to worry about anything. Lots of people swear they are doing parallel aiming, so it mustn't be out of the question.
It doesn't require straight through shooting, but it's more easier, IMO, to shoot straight through. Others I've seen who are ton better than I'll ever be seem to have no problem swooping, swerving, tucking & rolling, etc.
Fred
Is what I am doing what you call BHE? I think you are talking about something else, although we both start at the same place. When I apply english, I do it by first aiming through the center of the CB so as to hit the exact point on the OB with the leading edge of the CB. Then, I shift the back of my cue until I am applying the amount of L or R english on the CB that I desire. On my final stroke I am keeping my eye on the contact point of the OB that I must hit, and as I follow through, my stance (based on the initial center ball aiming) forces my cue, which although shifted to the side of the CB, to correct and send the CB straight to the contact point on the OB without the curve usually attributable to english. As the speed of stroke increases, however, some adjustment must be made for squirt. All I know is that it works! Using easy and moderate strokes, I don't have to adjust for english-induced curve or squirt, but for harder hit shots, I do have to adjust for squirt. Also, for extreme english (especially low) shots, I do have to adjust for curve when I have a long shot and I am hitting the ball slowly, since it's almost like a masse effect.
Occasionally, I go back to parallel english, such as for when I "want" the CB to curve.
Is what I described above similar to what you are calling BHE? I don't do any "swooping" of the CB, as some have described. With my technique, I find I am able to put a lot more english on a shot with great accuracy and less guess work, than when I used to use parallel english. Then I was always wondering if I had made enough, or not enough, adjustment for squirt and curve.
The way I found out about my form of BHE was from a total stranger who told me of a fellow who used to follow Mosconi around and take notes on his shotmaking. He observed Mosconi using this technique for applying english (that is, moving the back of his cue to apply english). I figured I would try it out and I have never been sorry I switched. He also showed me a unique aiming technique, which he made me promise never to disclose, although I have never been able to get it to work for me. I hope I run into this guy again, since I have a lot of questions on this.
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Hi jsp,jsp said:Colin...I don't think this statement is technically correct (i might be harping on just a technicality, but i'm big on technicalities). I don't think BHE (swiping, swooping...whatever) can "eliminate" or "reduce" squirt at all. The squirt will always be there if you hit the cue ball off center and apply english (more specifically, if the direction of the force vector does not point directly through the center of the cue ball). However, I would agree that BHE can "compensate" for squirt. That's saying something totally different.
For example, look at the the right figure of the picture that I posted in my previous post. The initial aiming direction is exactly the same as the cueball trajectory. So if you relate the cueball trajectory with the aiming direction, then you can say that the squirt is completely compensated for. However, squirt is never eliminated...there is still squirt, if you look at the direction of the force vector in relation with the cueball trajectory. So in both the left and right figures, the amount of squirt is exactly the same for both cases, which is represented by the angle theta. So for the right figure, you can say the squirt is totally compensated with respect to the aiming direction. For the left figure, however, the amount of squirt is not compensated for but is used in adjusting the initial aiming direction.
So just going back to the original question of this thread..."Does backhand english reduce deflection (squirt)?" The answer is no. There will ALWAYS be deflection (squirt) when you apply english on the cue ball. However, squirt can be compensated for using BHE. Just a technicality on the wording. That's all.
You may be right that my definition was not technically correct about it eliminating squirt. I was trying to point out that they are opposing forces, but yes, the contributing forces, or mechanisms of squirt are still there, but this tecnnique brings into play forces that, via vector addition work against them...at least in terms of direction.
I have summized / written before that that I believe there are two mechanisms that lead to squirt. I call them Rotation Induced Deflection (RID) and Surface Property Induced Deflection (SPID) See article HERE and diagrams below:
Swipe acts to reduce the effect of RID, just as OE reduces and can even reverse the effect of throw in ball to ball collisions as JAL has noted elsewhere.
The direction of cue tip travel through the CB can also effect the resultant forces of SPID, moving them away from the usual deflection direction of squirt. The effect is a new set of resultant forces.
I still think it is reasonable to say swipe can eliminate or reverse the effects of squirt, though to be technically perfect, one must look into the whole process and then it becomes difficult to find a simple way to state this.
Colin
Hi JR,CaptainJR said:
Tuck and Roll, by their original definition are about moving the back hand left and right.
Tuck is to bring the wrist toward the body, Roll is to roll it out away from the body.
There is a link in this thread to another thread that talks about it in more detail.
Moving the bridge is sometimes refered to as Front Hand English (FHE).
Colin Colenso said:Hi jsp,
You may be right that my definition was not technically correct about it eliminating squirt. I was trying to point out that they are opposing forces, but yes, the contributing forces, or mechanisms of squirt are still there, but this tecnnique brings into play forces that, via vector addition work against them...at least in terms of direction.
I have summized / written before that that I believe there are two mechanisms that lead to squirt. I call them Rotation Induced Deflection (RID) and Surface Property Induced Deflection (SPID) See article HERE and diagrams below:
Swipe acts to reduce the effect of RID, just as OE reduces and can even reverse the effect of throw in ball to ball collisions as JAL has noted elsewhere.
The direction of cue tip travel through the CB can also effect the resultant forces of SPID, moving them away from the usual deflection direction of squirt. The effect is a new set of resultant forces.
I still think it is reasonable to say swipe can eliminate or reverse the effects of squirt, though to be technically perfect, one must look into the whole process and then it becomes difficult to find a simple way to state this.
Colin
I believe that when you are not targeting a straight line through the CB (BHE and other) the squirt and deflection are part of the shot. Otherwise in a parallel system squirt and deflection are variables that must be compensated for, though experience makes this variable easily predictable so that errors do not occur.
With this said, the strong player simply pays no attention to these as they are simply known tools in the bag of shots. The novice player on the otherhand needs to know these effects so they can begin to train their mind.
Colin Colenso said:
WOW - Guess I had it backwards. I guess I just couldn't believe it that anyone would actually on purpose move there back hand somewhere other than on line. I mean that is what I'm always striving for. To keep my back hand moving straight through the shot. To me BHE has always been lined up in pre-shot still using a straight stroke. As far as the swoop, I've watched tapes of Buddy Hall and he does it with his bridge hand which is the way I do a swoop shot. I hate having to do it, but on a slow role it is the only way to get more spin on the ball and reduce the chance of a miscue.
drivermaker
Banned
CaptainJR said:
Buddy tucks and rolls with his BACKHAND.
Zorro said:
It sounds close to BHE, but you're initial setup has got me slightly confused. Maybe it's your terminology. Anyway, yes, you setup with centerball, then you pivot about your bridge by moving your grip hand (the back hand) to the desired amount of english. Then you would stroke straight through that new point with a normal stroke. That is traditional BHE.
The swiping/swerving type is usually called other things like "swooping into the english."
Fred
drivermaker
Banned
Cornerman said:
Not even to throw people off?? Don't ever put anything past him.
Colin, thanks for the figures and explanations. Again, you have very cool pictures. However, I don't know if I totally agree with your explanations just yet. I have to read up on it more, but work is tying me down (sometimes I wonder if some of you guys work at allColin Colenso said:
). I do have to say though, from reading your post and article, is that squirt is more of a complicated phenomenon than I originally thought. I should stop simplifying the impact event between the cue tip and cue ball as a single instantaneous moment, but rather a series of moments (lasting what?...a couple hundred microseconds or so) where the cue ball is pushed and dragged by the cue tip, and other factors such as the precise cue tip trajectory during the moments the cue tip and cue ball are contacting and the whippiness or rigidity of the cue shaft also will significantly change the amount of squirt and throw. I tried to research Dr. Dave's site and find out if he had an article that explaining squirt...but i couldn't find one. Anyways, i'll have to do more thinking.drivermaker
Banned
jsp said:Hehe...I don't know who this Patrick Johnson cat is, but he must be one SMART (and not to mention good looking) guy. I don't blame drivermaker for such understandable mistakes.
Well, truth be known...he's one of the biggest flaming assholes on the planet and was declared as "the most hated man" on another forum.
We can defer judgement until a later time and give you the benefit of the doubt. Although...you could post your pic in the faces to name thread like all of us did to give yourself a human side. How's that for an idea?
drivermaker said:We can defer judgement until a later time and give you the benefit of the doubt. Although...you could post your pic in the faces to name thread like all of us did to give yourself a human side. How's that for an idea?
Picture of me? Nah...I'm not deserving for my picture to be posted...I'm still a nobody around these forums. Maybe when I hit the 1k post mark like some of you guys, i'll think about posting one. But now that I think about it, you can find out A LOT about me sprinkled throughout my 100 or so posts. You can find out my age, location, occupation, education, ethnicity, religion, whether I have children or not...heck, you can even find out my pet peeves, since I started a thread on that. Be my guest if you want to surf through my posts...if not, I wouldn't mind if you call me patrick from now on.
But anywho, this is a thread about deflection, and I don't want to veer off subject. Hmmm...what else to say about deflection. Oh, i have one...I personally don't like the specific term "deflection". The word is an inaccurate description of the actual phenomenon. "Squirt" is a much better term for it. Here are two definitions of deflection from Merriam-Webster Online...
1 : a turning aside or off course : DEVIATION
2 : the departure of an indicator or pointer from the zero reading on the scale of an instrument
So from these definitions, deflection in the pool sense implies that the cue ball veers off its original course. But what is the cue ball's "original course"? Deflection or no deflection, once the cue ball leaves the cue tip, it stays on that specific trajectory (of course, i'm not taking swerve into account, but that's a whole different subject). One may argue that the "original course" is the direction of the cue tip as it hits through the cue ball, so deflection causes it to veer off this direction. But when applying english, the cue tip trajectory should NEVER be exactly the same as your intended cue ball trajectory (if it is, you'll be missing lots of shots when applying english). It would be more appropriate to use deflection when describing the deflection (bending) of the cue shaft upon impact of the cue ball while applying english. But for the other case, i'd rather use "squirt". (I'm not sure, but I think I got this notion from one of Robert Byrne's instructional books...I don't want to plagiarize.)