Does Backhand English Reduce Deflection?

[Jaden]

yes you're right.

There is going to be a war over semantics here...I can smell it.

Some points to try to clarify things as I see them.

1. Parallel English as some people call the alternanative or typical method of just lining up with english, should never be parallel, unless you like missing.

2. Back Hand English still requires hitting straight through the cue ball, not swiping or swooping across it.

Right DM? Fred?

There is a tendency to pull the stroke towards the original line, but you'll be off every time you do this. You should stroke straight through on line with your practice stroke. as long as your practice stroke is straight. Regardless of how you do it, your follow through should be a straight line.

 

[Jaden]

don't swoop the stroke only the aimline

If backhand english requires you to go straight thru the ball, albeit from a different angle than centerball alignment, what is the system called that I see some pros using where they swoop left or right of the ball when they use sidespin? I've never seen anyone do that using center, only when they apply left or right english.

Yes they pivot their stroke from the initial aimline; however, you still stroke it straight as an arrow just on the NEW aimline.

 

[JoeyInCali]

There is a tendency to pull the stroke towards the original line, but you'll be off every time you do this. You should stroke straight through on line with your practice stroke. as long as your practice stroke is straight. Regardless of how you do it, your follow through should be a straight line.

Why not just move your behind?
Seriously. Stroke like it's a center ball hit, move your behind to the opposite direction of the english until the tip points to where you want to hit the ball with english ( make sure you freeze your legs and body on that position). Now, your elbow, shoulder and grip hand are on line.

 

[pete lafond]

Yes they pivot their stroke from the initial aimline; however, you still stroke it straight as an arrow just on the NEW aimline.

All strokes use the back hand to drive the cue thru the ball. On occassion, there is a need to accelerate the amount of english used. See below.

Please excuse my lines;

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You can use normal extreme right english on this shot but the 3 rail will be too tight. In order to achieve this, BHE is used as a swipe across the cue ball.

This is not a usial shot at all but it is one that comes up time to time. Generally speaking all other shots as you said are straight line stokes.

 

[Jaden]

BRKNRUN,
Your diagram is pretty much exactly how parallel english / aiming has been described, and the name parallel reenforces this idea.

However, as I said earlier in this thread, such a method simply cannot work. It would not pocket a ball as all cues deflect with english. It is the cueist who must compensate.

Cueists actually think they are lining up parallel to the line through the contact points, but if they do, they miss. They actually learn to instinctively place their cue on a line the same as that used by BHE users. They just align instinctively...not parallel.

So actually, the names for both methods are badly given, hence the confusion.

Your diagram is useful to point this out. What you draw is what 'so called' parallel aimers think they are doing, or try to do, my diagram is actually what they must do in order for their method to work.

Of course my diagram exaggerates the angle to make it clear. The angles are just a degree or two in reality.

It's little wonder most players simply learn to swoop a bit to make these shots.

Exactly. Before Efren told me about the concept of BHE, I used the parrallel shift technique; however, Colin is absolutely right, at other than a very limited specific distance and shot speed the shooter must adjust their aim before they parallel shift to compensate for squirt and throw, I used to use the distance of the shot as a starting point but it really came down to feel and LOTS of practice to be able to successfully use this technique.

With BHE you don't have to manually adjust ANYTHING, when Efren first explained it to me I didn't believe that it could be that easy, but it is. To be a truly great player you still have to understand the concepts of aquirt and throw for proper planning of the shot and to help you get out of some sticky situations and most importantly for cue ball control. If you use the tangent line from OB to pocket, you WILL be off when using large amounts of side spin.

 

[Jaden]

Yes

Why not just move your behind?
Seriously. Stroke like it's a center ball hit, move your behind to the opposite direction of the english until the tip points to where you want to hit the ball with english ( make sure you freeze your legs and body on that position). Now, your elbow, shoulder and grip hand are on line.

Yes you can do whatever will help you to stroke straight. Me, I personally like doing air stroke drills with an imaginary ball so I am only concentrating on the stroke and follow through. I stroke like I'm hitiing the numbers on the face of a clock and make sure I stroke straight through. That way when I'm stroking the ball when I play my muscles have already been trained to stroke straight through and I can concentrate on strategy and playing the game.

What I was saying is that if you don't understand or aren't congnizant of this concept, you subconsciously want to pull the cue in line with the original Aimline and if you do that you will be off.

 

[Jaden]

yes that is true.

All strokes use the back hand to drive the cue thru the ball. On occassion, there is a need to accelerate the amount of english used. See below.

Please excuse my lines;

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%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg0V9%WV0H8%Xg5[3%_h3[3%`s3S1
%aj0C4
)END

You can use normal extreme right english on this shot but the 3 rail will be too tight. In order to achieve this, BHE is used as a swipe across the cue ball.

This is not a usial shot at all but it is one that comes up time to time. Generally speaking all other shots as you said are straight line stokes.

I was going to include that but I;ve been typing like a mad man all day. YEs there are situations where you need to pull across the shot if you want EXTREME spin, but you have to compensate the aim a little to make the shot go because of more extreme squirt and throw.

 

[Jaden]

I kind of agree.

But not to forget, it is the contact point of the object ball that you are aiming to otherwise there are too many unpredictable variables. However the cue ball moves, squirt or curve, your aim is the contact point of the object ball to the pocket period. I know there are many players wanting to advance so I just want to make this perfectly clear for them.

Basically the cue ball may curve or squirt, but as a player you know this not only changes from felt to felt, but also based upon factors such as humidity. And you determine what to will allow or allow for. Anything other than this concept will not allow you to develop "feel" which is a key ingredient to shot making and position play.

Yes the aimpoint will always be the contact point tangent to the pocket(or what the contact point would be with no added spin on the CB), but it is important for cue ball control to understand that the actual contact point is different than the aimpoint when using sidespin. It is the throw of the OB from the spin on the CB that makes it go into the pocket.

 

[jsp]

Yes the aimpoint will always be the contact point tangent to the pocket...

Hi Jaden...what exactly do you mean by this statement? What exactly does "tangent to the pocket" mean? Thanks.

 

[Jaden]

Yes with a problem

Is what I am doing what you call BHE? I think you are talking about something else, although we both start at the same place. When I apply english, I do it by first aiming through the center of the CB so as to hit the exact point on the OB with the leading edge of the CB. Then, I shift the back of my cue until I am applying the amount of L or R english on the CB that I desire. On my final stroke I am keeping my eye on the contact point of the OB that I must hit, and as I follow through, my stance (based on the initial center ball aiming) forces my cue, which although shifted to the side of the CB, to correct and send the CB straight to the contact point on the OB without the curve usually attributable to english. As the speed of stroke increases, however, some adjustment must be made for squirt. All I know is that it works! Using easy and moderate strokes, I don't have to adjust for english-induced curve or squirt, but for harder hit shots, I do have to adjust for squirt. Also, for extreme english (especially low) shots, I do have to adjust for curve when I have a long shot and I am hitting the ball slowly, since it's almost like a masse effect.

Ok what you're describing that you do is that you aim from center CB to the tangent contact point on the OB right? Well if you do that you're gonna miss a lot of shots. You have to aim from the contact point on the CB which varies depending on the angle of the shot. One way to determine the contact point is to draw a mental line from the pocket to the CB where it intersects with the front of the CB is the contact point. Well atleast it's the contact point that you want to aim from. If I had a scanner I;d upload a diagram I drew up.

Maybe I'll redraw it in digital format.

Another method for determining CB contact point is visualizing the curved surface and drawing a ghost ball to the point of contact on the object ball. You can then visualize the point of contact on the curved surface of teh CB and aim accordingly.

This part gets a little complex, whatever method you use to determine the contact point of the CB you have to aim on a parallel line with the center of the CB to the contact point on the OB. All of this can be done mentally before you even get down on the shot. Then you must have your bridge hand aiming through the center of the CB on a Parallel line with the two contact points and from there you can pivot for any English that you want.

 

[Jaden]

Tangent

Hi Jaden...what exactly do you mean by this statement? What exactly does "tangent to the pocket" mean? Thanks.

The tangent line is a line that runs ninety degrees to the line going from the pocket through the OB. The contact point of the tangent line is the point on the side of the OB that the CB makes contact with on this line. If the CB has no spin on it when it hits the OB you want the contact point on the CB to hit the Tangent contact point. You also want to use both the CB's contact point and the OB's tangent contact point to AIM when using BHE.

However when using BHE sidespin the actual contact point will differ from the Tangent contact point and will therefore change the direction that the CB follows after striking the OB. This can greatly effect CB placement especially when trying to circumnavigate a cluster of balls.

 

[Bob Jewett]

.. If the CB has no spin on it when it hits the OB you want the contact point on the CB to hit the Tangent contact point. ... .

As lots of authors have pointed out (Byrne, Capelle, Davis, Alciatore, Bentivegna ...) this is not true because of "collision-induced throw" (CIT). If you do not use side spin, you must over cut shots to compensate for CIT. This is the main technical reason that the basic ghost ball system is inadequate.

 

[pete lafond]

As lots of authors have pointed out (Byrne, Capelle, Davis, Alciatore, Bentivegna ...) this is not true because of "collision-induced throw" (CIT). If you do not use side spin, you must over cut shots to compensate for CIT. This is the main technical reason that the basic ghost ball system is inadequate.

Great post which is why many of these systems just do not work. They are good for explaining to new player but should end there.

Even the amount of CIT changes from fabric to fabric and humidity. On the other hand a player who simply sees the entire shot from the point on the back of the cue ball to the point at the back of the pocket (a line) will always fare well and improve shot making with experience. Mental adjustments are made through experience just as in table speed adjustments. There is no magic to this, simply lots of experience and yes those that tend to be more hand eye coordinated will achive this better and faster than the rest.

 

[drivermaker]

Picture of me? Nah...I'm not deserving for my picture to be posted...I'm still a nobody around these forums. Maybe when I hit the 1k post mark like some of you guys, i'll think about posting one. But now that I think about it, you can find out A LOT about me sprinkled throughout my 100 or so posts. You can find out my age, location, occupation, education, ethnicity, religion, whether I have children or not...heck, you can even find out my pet peeves, since I started a thread on that. Be my guest if you want to surf through my posts...if not, I wouldn't mind if you call me patrick from now on.

I'm beyond the point in life where Easter egg hunts are the highlight of a good time. I wouldn't call ANYONE that nor do I want to be reminded. Btw...you don't need to throw a smokescreen up regarding length of time here...we'll gladly accect your picture.

But anywho, this is a thread about deflection, and I don't want to veer off subject. Hmmm...what else to say about deflection. Oh, i have one...I personally don't like the specific term "deflection". The word is an inaccurate description of the actual phenomenon. "Squirt" is a much better term for it. Here are two definitions of deflection from Merriam-Webster Online...

1 : a turning aside or off course : DEVIATION
2 : the departure of an indicator or pointer from the zero reading on the scale of an instrument

So from these definitions, deflection in the pool sense implies that the cue ball veers off its original course. But what is the cue ball's "original course"? Deflection or no deflection, once the cue ball leaves the cue tip, it stays on that specific trajectory (of course, i'm not taking swerve into account, but that's a whole different subject). One may argue that the "original course" is the direction of the cue tip as it hits through the cue ball, so deflection causes it to veer off this direction. But when applying english, the cue tip trajectory should NEVER be exactly the same as your intended cue ball trajectory (if it is, you'll be missing lots of shots when applying english). It would be more appropriate to use deflection when describing the deflection (bending) of the cue shaft upon impact of the cue ball while applying english. But for the other case, i'd rather use "squirt". (I'm not sure, but I think I got this notion from one of Robert Byrne's instructional books...I don't want to plagiarize.)

It seems like you and the other guy on this thread have turned out to be bosom buddies regarding all the techincal crap of pool such as definitions...geometry...physics...semantics and all the other crap that those who can't run 3 fookin' balls get into. Stay in your little circle of friends and don't try to jam that worthless shit down the throat of "players' around here and everyone will be happy. Fact is...I would suggest for your OWN development as a player, you forget about that crap and learn how to JUST PLAY. You'll be a lot better off in the long run. Here are your buddies that LOVE this crap: Colin; Bob Jewett; Mike Page; (your newfound friend Jared or whatever the hell his name is); and a couple others here and there.

Have fun and post that picture...we're looking forward to it.

 

[pete lafond]

... But what is the cue ball's "original course"? Deflection or no deflection, once the cue ball leaves the cue tip, it stays on that specific trajectory (of course, i'm not taking swerve into account, but that's a whole different subject). One may argue that the "original course" is the direction of the cue tip as it hits through the cue ball, so deflection causes it to veer off this direction. But when applying english, the cue tip trajectory should NEVER be exactly the same as your intended cue ball trajectory (if it is, you'll be missing lots of shots when applying english). It would be more appropriate to use deflection when describing the deflection (bending) of the cue shaft upon impact of the cue ball while applying english. But for the other case, i'd rather use "squirt". (I'm not sure, but I think I got this notion from one of Robert Byrne's instructional books...I don't want to plagiarize.)

Try the same shots with low english and most of what is said does not apply.
If you ever notice when the ball skids, it does so when applying middle to high english. The reason is that there is a greater amount of friction applied. Therefore more throw (squirt).

The point I'm making is that putting all this emphasis on the physics of play is probably enjoyable from a scientific standpoint. Ask a strong player what happens and how to gauge for it and they will tell you experience and practice. Simply put, none of what I heard can be measured with consistency because of environmental reasons (humidity and felt). Given this there can exist no system that accommodates these variables and any player who tried to use one would probably go crazy.

Again, I know many enjoy talking about this, I posted this in case there are beginning and intermediate players who might get confused with it all. Know the effects in general but simple play and practice 'till it sinks in works the best.

 

[jsp]

Stay in your little circle of friends and don't try to jam that worthless shit down the throat of "players' around here and everyone will be happy.

Wow, I'm honored that I was able to make drivermaker write red. Did I somehow strike a nerve? Don't know...oh well.

 

[sjm]

Does backhand english reduce deflection?

In simplest terms, the answer is no. Backhand english compensates for deflection.

Still, many AZB threads on deflection frequently take note of something that I greatly believe in - deflection must be considered in conjunction with squirt, swerve and throw in properly addressing the theory.

Deflection, when considered in a vacuum, offers only minimal insight into the behavior of the cueball for a given stroke. Just one man's opinion.

 

[jsp]

Does backhand english reduce deflection?

In simplest terms, the answer is no. Backhand english compensates for deflection.

Thanks for your wonderful wisdom sjm. Hmmm...why does your answer sound so familiar??

 

[titlistsucker]

Thanks for your wonderful wisdom sjm. Hmmm...why does your answer sound so familiar??

I ve played snooker for the better part of 12 years and has probably close to a hundred snooker books on my shelf... Interesting thing is, all the books (joe davis, Fred Davis, Hendry, Steve Davis, Ray Reardon)etc etc would tell you that the ONLY way to apply english is by the parallel method..

Just bringing in a different perspective from another cue sport..

btw i swear by backhand english as taught by efren.

 

[Zorro]

It sounds close to BHE, but you're initial setup has got me slightly confused. Maybe it's your terminology. Anyway, yes, you setup with centerball, then you pivot about your bridge by moving your grip hand (the back hand) to the desired amount of english. Then you would stroke straight through that new point with a normal stroke. That is traditional BHE.

The swiping/swerving type is usually called other things like "swooping into the english."

Fred

You say, "Stroke straight through." Yes, but I find it imperative to keep my eye on the contact point of the OB while I'm delivering my final stroke. I'm not sure the cue actually strokes straight through or instead pulls a little back in the direction of the OB since my stance is originally set up to shoot into the OB (with only the back hand moved for applying english). In any case, the CB tends to go straight to the contact point on the OB, unless I strike it hard, in which case there can be overriding squirt. All this is calculated before my final stroke, and it's more of a feel or sense of how much adjustment is needed to keep the CB on track. At easy stroke speeds I find I am much more accurate in applying needed english than I am when using parallel english aiming. Also, if I am aiming near full in the face of the OB, I have to adjust for OB throw, but I have to do that under parallel aiming, too.

I've tried to do the swiping/swooping described by others here and I cannot imagine why anyone would ever want to do this. I can get all the english I could ever want doing it my way.